Can Fitzpatrick be an upper echelon QB?

[Billsrhody]

You can start by not being so transparent.....

 

 

"I have nothing against Fitz but"

 

Then every single point you make circles back around to Ryan Fitzpatrck

 

These facts are undisputable

 

- Ryan Fitpatrick is an "OK" quarterback......he is up....he is down....in the end he is a second tier guy

 

- Fitzy is a system QB.....and Chan Gailey has done very well in the past with these types

 

- IT DOES NOT MATTER what offensive system you run......unless you are a GREAT QB and a GREAT OFFENSE......if you dont have a defense you will not win

 

- The bills have done everything in their power to biuld the team up around Fitz.....premium draft picks have been put on the O and D lines.....top free agents have been brought in. The bills have restocked this team with talent over the past two years

 

- People like to bag on Fitz.....but they dont like to say what the alternative could have been.......who SHOULD be (and be realistic) the QB of this team?

 

I'll wait

 

Well first of all, I do have something against Fitz and I never said otherwise. I said I wasn't a Fitz basher and by that I mean I like the guy and I'm glad he's our QB, I just don't think its realistic to think we can win a superbowl with him. I think he has limitations that will keep him from every winning on the biggest stage, but I'm absolutely rooting for the guy. Every single point I make has circled back to Fitz because I started this thread to talk about Fitz and whether or not he can be an upper echelon QB.. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say there.

 

I agree with all your facts and I think you might just be misinterpreting my intentions. I like Fitz. I like him over our available alternatives. I'd rather start Fitz and be competitive than start Edwards and go 3-13 and hope to get Luck or RGIII. The fact is, its the offseason and there isn't much to talk about before camp opens and after what you just said, I do think we disagree all that much on Ryan Fitzpatrick.

 

How far do you think Fitz can bring the bills?

[paintmyhouse]

There is only so many Tom Brady's to go around....actually.....there is only one

 

So what do we do?

 

So what do we do? Umm, exactly what they did not do, they completely ignored drafting a QB the last 2 seasons, and it was completely stupid. What you do at this point is cut Fitzpatrick, he is a proven loser, you can never win with a guy like him at QB, not in today's NFL. You say there is 1 Brady, yes, there is, but there are plenty of Fitzpatricks out there, just look at Kitna, Orton, Shaun Hill, they all are basically the same, except Fitzpatrick loses EVEN MORE! What you do is try and at least find your Brady, play someone else. Every other team moved on from guys like Fitzpatrick but the Bills for some stupid reason believe they can win with him.

 

Best thing for the Bills that can happen is for Fitzpatrick to just quit right now.

[ReturnoftheBuffaloBeast23]

The crux of your alleged argument seems to be, no one plays the game of football with exactly the same combination of passing and running abilities as Vick.

 

Fine. Granted. No one plays the game of football with exactly the same combination of passing and running abilities as Vick, though I wouldn't bet against Cam Newton beating those records.

 

Too bad no one around here is contending that particular point. The question is overall NFL QB skill.

 

Facts are, Fitzpatrick has shown some stuff:

"Coming into the eleventh game of the regular season in the second quarter against the Houston Texans to replace injured veteran journeyman Jamie Martin, Fitzpatrick led the Rams from a 24-3 halftime deficit to a 33-27 overtime win, throwing for 310 yards and three touchdowns, completing 63.3% of his passes and 117.4 QB rating for the game. This made Fitzpatrick one of only six players who passed for more 300 yards in their NFL debut."

 

He led great comeback games against Oakland and NE last season.

 

He isn't Brady. He hasn't shown himself to be a top 10 QB in the NFL (some would say "yet").

 

But he's plainly not a bottom of the barrel QB, in statistics or in what he's accomplished in games. One doesn't even need to be much of a football fan or very knowledgeable about football to see that.

 

That is the reason this persistent fixation of yours for calling him FitzGARBAGE is just dumb, and makes you look like a tool.

 

But cut-I mean suit-yourself.

 

Ok one last time for the fun of it..

 

Ok you say he has accomplished what with those comebacks? Well if thats the case I'll put Matt Cassel's stats when he played for NE up against those stats but does that make Matt Cassel a great QB or Mark Sanchez who is awful and I know fits is better than him but he has led them to 2 AFC Championships in 3 years does that make him great? Tim Tebow had what 5 comebacks last year but throws 1 good pass outta 20 does that make him great and I like Tebow. Im a Bills fan and want to see them win so Im all for this guy but I know just like everyone else rather you wanna admit it or not fitzGARBGE is not the guy I hope I'm wrong but I just don't see it. I went down this road before with Trent and I refuse to do it again. He proves he is good fine but until then he is garbage period. Im not gonna praise him and make excuse like others I'm a tell it like it is...

 

And the obsession with this fitzGARBAGE thing is ridiculous I must have hurt a lot of feelings with that name..LOL..Oh well... Nobody said anything about the "least mode" nickname why is that? Because people didn't like him off the field even tho he produced on the field. But people will protect Fitz cuz he doesn't produce on the field but you like him off.. How backwards is that? You can't ride with one nickname then call the other stupids, childish and immature thats ridiculous and some people didn want Cam Newton Calling him Scam Newton.. Thats fine to isn't it? ...SMH... But anyway thats all I'm a say about that.. This is getting old but id like to still see what you gotta say...

 

So please crack a rib-I mean a better joke...

Edited July 18, 2012 by ReturnoftheBuffaloBeast23

[John from Riverside]

So what do we do? Umm, exactly what they did not do, they completely ignored drafting a QB the last 2 seasons, and it was completely stupid. What you do at this point is cut Fitzpatrick, he is a proven loser, you can never win with a guy like him at QB, not in today's NFL. You say there is 1 Brady, yes, there is, but there are plenty of Fitzpatricks out there, just look at Kitna, Orton, Shaun Hill, they all are basically the same, except Fitzpatrick loses EVEN MORE! What you do is try and at least find your Brady, play someone else. Every other team moved on from guys like Fitzpatrick but the Bills for some stupid reason believe they can win with him.

 

Best thing for the Bills that can happen is for Fitzpatrick to just quit right now.

 

And what QB were we in a position to draft that would have been a better alternative?

 

Just play somebody else? Really? What a great awesome plan! Why are you not the GM of the bills?

 

Your recipie is head coaching and general manager suicide

 

NO....because we were not in a position to draft Cam Newton (which is the ONLY QB alternative I see that is a clear better selection then a veteran Ryan Fitzpatrick) you go with the QB that you know when the conditions are right can run your team.....and you biuld up the other areas of the team around him.

 

Look....your post reaks of fan frustration over losing. I get that and I am frustrated to. But just blowing everything up without a better alternative does not get you better results.

 

- The team is loyal to Fitzy and he has their respect

- There is "synergy" betwen Fitzy and the WR we just resigned to be our number 1...not to mention he has a good connection with the other two veteran receivers (Nelson and Chandler)

- We will be starting a rookie LT and Fitz doesn't hang onto the ball

 

 

I ask again.....take a look at what the bills have done on defense and realize that we now have the pass rush to be in every game......when Fitz does a 3 and out? We have a defense that will get us the ball back.....we have not had that in YEARS.

 

Lets just see.....lets just see

 

Well first of all, I do have something against Fitz and I never said otherwise. I said I wasn't a Fitz basher and by that I mean I like the guy and I'm glad he's our QB, I just don't think its realistic to think we can win a superbowl with him. I think he has limitations that will keep him from every winning on the biggest stage, but I'm absolutely rooting for the guy. Every single point I make has circled back to Fitz because I started this thread to talk about Fitz and whether or not he can be an upper echelon QB.. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say there.

 

I agree with all your facts and I think you might just be misinterpreting my intentions. I like Fitz. I like him over our available alternatives. I'd rather start Fitz and be competitive than start Edwards and go 3-13 and hope to get Luck or RGIII. The fact is, its the offseason and there isn't much to talk about before camp opens and after what you just said, I do think we disagree all that much on Ryan Fitzpatrick.

 

How far do you think Fitz can bring the bills?

 

Playoffs.....where anything can happen

[paintmyhouse]

They could have taken Dalton, he was taken 1 pick right after them, you and others must really not pay attention. Bills could have been in the RGIII sweepstakes, and it would have been worth it too. Do you realize the combo of Grossman and Beck actually had more passing yards than Buffalo last year?!? Bills could have taken many guys the last 2 seasons that have not seen the field yet. You have noticed that QBs have been drafted the last 2 years, right? I know it is odd to actually have QBs drafted, but several have been the last 2 seasons.

 

No one respects a loser.

[Billsrhody]

And what QB were we in a position to draft that would have been a better alternative?

 

2010

Jake Locker

Christian Ponder

Andy Dalton

Ryan Mallet

 

2011

Brandon Weeden

Brock Osweiler

Russell Wilson

Nick Foles

 

Not to mention we could have traded up for Newton, RGIII, Tannehill. Its not like the bills didnt have options.

[John from Riverside]

They could have taken Dalton, he was taken 1 pick right after them, you and others must really not pay attention. Bills could have been in the RGIII sweepstakes, and it would have been worth it too. Do you realize the combo of Grossman and Beck actually had more passing yards than Buffalo last year?!? Bills could have taken many guys the last 2 seasons that have not seen the field yet. You have noticed that QBs have been drafted the last 2 years, right? I know it is odd to actually have QBs drafted, but several have been the last 2 seasons.

 

No one respects a loser.

 

Andy Dalton is a younger version of Ryan Fitzpatrick. And while I like Dalton....there is NOTHING to insinuate he is gonna have a better career then Ryan Fitzpatrick.

 

Just because there were QBs in the draft does not mean they are gonna amount to ****

[eball]

No one respects a loser.

How ironic.

[John from Riverside]

2010

Jake Locker - SERIOUS questions about this kid coming out of college.....has yet to prove anything

Christian Ponder - started off strong and faded late

Andy Dalton - Probably the closest QB to proving your point as he has a skillset very similar to Ryan Fitzpatricks but younger and more accurate

Ryan Mallet - An interception machine that the pats took a chance on....and then were trying to actively trade

 

2011

Brandon Weeden - Unknown

Brock Osweiler - Unknown

Russell Wilson - Extrmemely short and unknown

Nick Foles - Unknown

 

Not to mention we could have traded up for Newton, RGIII, Tannehill. Its not like the bills didnt have options.

 

Are you trying to say that these QBs are BETTER then Ryan Fitzpatrick (because they are not) or just that we should have drafted A quarterback? How do you know we didnt try? There is some awfully talented guys that the bills picked up at the positions these guys were taken......do we pass up on talent to hope that we get lucky with a QB?

[paintmyhouse]

Andy Dalton is a younger version of Ryan Fitzpatrick. And while I like Dalton....there is NOTHING to insinuate he is gonna have a better career then Ryan Fitzpatrick.

 

Just because there were QBs in the draft does not mean they are gonna amount to ****

 

Fitz is on year 8 and has not amounted to ****, I guess you and others just like more ****.

 

I would not mind trying some new ****.

 

I personally do not even care if they are better, because Fitzpatrick not only loses but he is not getting better.

 

2010

Jake Locker

Christian Ponder

Andy Dalton

Ryan Mallet

 

2011

Brandon Weeden

Brock Osweiler

Russell Wilson

Nick Foles

 

Not to mention we could have traded up for Newton, RGIII, Tannehill. Its not like the bills didnt have options.

 

Bills would have been in a much better position with any of those guys right now.

Edited July 18, 2012 by paintmyhouse

[John from Riverside]

Fitz is on year 8 and has not amounted to ****, I guess you and others just like more ****.

 

I would not mind trying some new ****.

 

I personally do not even care if they are better, because Fitzpatrick not only loses but he is not getting better.

 

 

 

Bills would have been in a much better position with any of those guys right now.

 

- Actually.....Fitz did get better last year. He was having a pretty good season right up to injury....on a team decimated by injury and no depth....remember its a team game

 

- You have absolutely no way of knowing if we are going to be better off.....for all we know a guy like Jake Locker could be another JP Losman....like I said your plan is Head Coach and GM suicide.

[Billsrhody]

Andy Dalton is a younger version of Ryan Fitzpatrick. And while I like Dalton....there is NOTHING to insinuate he is gonna have a better career then Ryan Fitzpatrick.

 

Just because there were QBs in the draft does not mean they are gonna amount to ****

 

How is Andy Dalton a younger version of Fitz? He has already accomplished more than he has after 1 season! He won 9 games last year as a rookie and can get even better.. I'm not sure how you can say he's a younger version of Fitz when he's starting in year 1.

 

Are you trying to say that these QBs are BETTER then Ryan Fitzpatrick (because they are not) or just that we should have drafted A quarterback? How do you know we didnt try? There is some awfully talented guys that the bills picked up at the positions these guys were taken......do we pass up on talent to hope that we get lucky with a QB?

 

I'm saying they could have drafted a QB and that any of the guys on the list certainly could be better than fitz in the next 2-3 years. I would already trade fitz straight up for Newton, Luck, RGIII, Dalton and probably Ponder and Locker too. They could have taken Dalton and not drafted aaron williams.. not the end of the world.

[paintmyhouse]

- Actually.....Fitz did get better last year. He was having a pretty good season right up to injury....on a team decimated by injury and no depth....remember its a team game

 

- You have absolutely no way of knowing if we are going to be better off.....for all we know a guy like Jake Locker could be another JP Losman....like I said your plan is Head Coach and GM suicide.

 

Fitz did not get better last season. That is a complete lie. What games were you watching? 2011 was a repeat of 2010, good starts and dreadful finishes, just more of the same, dude has under a 70 QB rating for his career in November and December. He is not a very good starting NFL QB.

[John from Riverside]

How is Andy Dalton a younger version of Fitz? He has already accomplished more than he has after 1 season! He won 9 games last year as a rookie and can get even better.. I'm not sure how you can say he's a younger version of Fitz when he's starting in year 1.

 

 

 

I'm saying they could have drafted a QB and that any of the guys on the list certainly could be better than fitz in the next 2-3 years. I would already trade fitz straight up for Newton, Luck, RGIII, Dalton and probably Ponder and Locker too. They could have taken Dalton and not drafted aaron williams.. not the end of the world.

 

Do you mean he accomplished more because how well his team did? Or because he went to the Pro Bowl? Dalton's stats were not all that great and he could EASILY hit a sophmore slump going into his second year. When I compare him to Fitz he like Fitz plays the game with smarts without having great tools. Fitz doesnt have a cannon.....Dalton doesnt have a cannon...neither one of them are scrambling QB's but are mobile. A lead by example guy LIKE FITZ. Just for clarification......Dalton did not win 9 games as a rookie....Dalton was on a TEAM that won 9 games as a rookie......its a TEAM GAME. Dalton's team's defense did not fail him the way the bills failed Ryan Fitzpatrick. TEAM GAME.

 

Fitz did not get better last season. That is a complete lie. What games were you watching? 2011 was a repeat of 2010, good starts and dreadful finishes, just more of the same, dude has under a 70 QB rating for his career in November and December. He is not a very good starting NFL QB.

 

What was Ryan Fitzpatrick's QB rating at the beginning of the season last year (prior to injury)

 

I will wait.

[Billsrhody]

Do you mean he accomplished more because how well his team did? Or because he went to the Pro Bowl? Dalton's stats were not all that great and he could EASILY hit a sophmore slump going into his second year. When I compare him to Fitz he like Fitz plays the game with smarts without having great tools. Fitz doesnt have a cannon.....Dalton doesnt have a cannon...neither one of them are scrambling QB's but are mobile. A lead by example guy LIKE FITZ. Just for clarification......Dalton did not win 9 games as a rookie....Dalton was on a TEAM that won 9 games as a rookie......its a TEAM GAME. Dalton's team's defense did not fail him the way the bills failed Ryan Fitzpatrick. TEAM GAME.

 

Wait so Andy Dalton did not win 9 games as a rookie? Actually yes. He did. Its perfectly reasonable to judge a QB by his win%.

 

By saying he doesn't have a cannon and doesn't scramble, you're effectively describing half the quarterbacks in the league. I think you're forgetting that Dalton was a ROOKIE and still put up very good numbers. He had 50 fewer attempts than Fitz and threw 10 fewer INTs. He only threw 4 less TDs. He has a better passer rating than Fitz. Dalton's Stats:

 

3398 yds, 58% cmp%, 20 TDs, 13 INTs.

 

I'll take that every time out of a rookie. Wanna know what Fitz did as a rookie?

 

777 yds, 56% cmp%, 4 TDs, 8 INs.

 

Yes, he could easily have a sophmore slump. But Fitz could also easily throw 20 INTs again next year and be out of the league by 2014. You really wouldn't trade Fitz for Dalton right now?

[Rocky Landing]

Fitz did not get better last season. That is a complete lie. What games were you watching? 2011 was a repeat of 2010, good starts and dreadful finishes, just more of the same, dude has under a 70 QB rating for his career in November and December. He is not a very good starting NFL QB.

Using the QB (passer) rating really has very little meaning in your argument.

 

For those who don’t know, the formula for the passer rating is: [(a + b + c + d)/6] x 100, whereas a = [(completions/attempts x 100) – 30] x 0.05; b = [(yards/att) – 3] x 0.25; c = (TD/att) x 20; and d = 2.375 – (interceptions/att x 25).

 

Q: What’s missing from this equation? A: any variables that include the performance of any other player on the field other than the quarterback. So, if a QB has no offensive line to speak of and is only given an average of 1.6 seconds to get rid of the ball before being sacked, their rating will be low. Or, if a QB is playing a superior defense, their rating will be lower. That’s why Matt Stafford of the Lions could have a rating of 121.9 against the Panthers, and a 66.5 the following week against the Packers. Conversely, if a QB has great protection, like Tom Brady for most of his career, his rating will tend higher. In real statistical terms (as opposed to the armchair variety practiced by fans on these boards and pundits on ESPN), there are no published p-values, critical values, significance levels, or confidence intervals for the passer rating. Why? A: because it is statistically meaningless; it has no use for statistical analysis.

 

I think that the only use for the passer rating is for (crudely) tracking a single QB's performance against weekly variables such as the one's mentioned above. It has almost no value for comparing different players on different teams. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it is a better indicator of team performance than of QB performance.

[Rocky Landing]

Wait so Andy Dalton did not win 9 games as a rookie? Actually yes. He did. Its perfectly reasonable to judge a QB by his win%.

 

By saying he doesn't have a cannon and doesn't scramble, you're effectively describing half the quarterbacks in the league. I think you're forgetting that Dalton was a ROOKIE and still put up very good numbers. He had 50 fewer attempts than Fitz and threw 10 fewer INTs. He only threw 4 less TDs. He has a better passer rating than Fitz. Dalton's Stats:

 

3398 yds, 58% cmp%, 20 TDs, 13 INTs.

 

I'll take that every time out of a rookie. Wanna know what Fitz did as a rookie?

 

777 yds, 56% cmp%, 4 TDs, 8 INs.

 

Yes, he could easily have a sophmore slump. But Fitz could also easily throw 20 INTs again next year and be out of the league by 2014. You really wouldn't trade Fitz for Dalton right now?

Of course, this is a purely academic exercise, BUT...

 

I would definitely NOT trade Fitz for Dalton right now. Gailey has built the system around Fitz and every reasonable indicator gives Fitz a very good chance of performing at or above the level he played at during the first half of last season. If that happens, we have a winning team.

 

Putting in another QB (save for the very few elite QBs) would be a step backwards- especially one with only one season under his belt. Perhaps moving forward with Fitz will be a step in the wrong direction, but we won't know until we start playing. It's a choice between moving forward or moving backward.

 

Personally, I have very high hopes for Fitz. I say, move forward.

[John from Riverside]

Wait so Andy Dalton did not win 9 games as a rookie? Actually yes. He did. Its perfectly reasonable to judge a QB by his win%.

 

By saying he doesn't have a cannon and doesn't scramble, you're effectively describing half the quarterbacks in the league. I think you're forgetting that Dalton was a ROOKIE and still put up very good numbers. He had 50 fewer attempts than Fitz and threw 10 fewer INTs. He only threw 4 less TDs. He has a better passer rating than Fitz. Dalton's Stats:

 

3398 yds, 58% cmp%, 20 TDs, 13 INTs.

 

I'll take that every time out of a rookie. Wanna know what Fitz did as a rookie?

 

777 yds, 56% cmp%, 4 TDs, 8 INs.

 

Yes, he could easily have a sophmore slump. But Fitz could also easily throw 20 INTs again next year and be out of the league by 2014. You really wouldn't trade Fitz for Dalton right now?

 

Bear with me here.....

 

We dont live in a world where Dalton is a rookie and Fitz is a rookie

 

We live in a world where Dalton is going into his second year and Fitz is a veteran in the league......

 

And Fitz numbers should be compared to Daltons numbers of last year.....not some convoluted mark of when they were both rookies.....

 

And just to head you off at the past...I know that Fitz (post injury) put up horrendus numbers.....but when he was healthy he did not.

 

Judge the QBs.....last year....head to head.....healthy games to healthy games

[Captain Hindsight]

God Bless the ignore feature

[Billsrhody]

Of course, this is a purely academic exercise, BUT...

 

I would definitely NOT trade Fitz for Dalton right now. Gailey has built the system around Fitz and every reasonable indicator gives Fitz a very good chance of performing at or above the level he played at during the first half of last season. If that happens, we have a winning team.

 

Putting in another QB (save for the very few elite QBs) would be a step backwards- especially one with only one season under his belt. Perhaps moving forward with Fitz will be a step in the wrong direction, but we won't know until we start playing. It's a choice between moving forward or moving backward.

 

Personally, I have very high hopes for Fitz. I say, move forward.

 

Well then by your logic you wouldn't trade Fitz for Cam Newton, Andrew Luck, RGIII? Also QBs with bright futures who might not be more productive than Fitz this year? At some point you might have to take a step back in order to move forward when you have a middle of the pack QB.

 

 

Bear with me here.....

 

We dont live in a world where Dalton is a rookie and Fitz is a rookie

 

We live in a world where Dalton is going into his second year and Fitz is a veteran in the league......

 

And Fitz numbers should be compared to Daltons numbers of last year.....not some convoluted mark of when they were both rookies.....

 

And just to head you off at the past...I know that Fitz (post injury) put up horrendus numbers.....but when he was healthy he did not.

 

Judge the QBs.....last year....head to head.....healthy games to healthy games

 

Well we do live in a world where Fitz is 29 and Dalton is 24. Doesn't that play a factor in your decision? Don't we also have to factor in the fact that Dalton was a rookie that had essentially no time to learn his playbook and still put up numbers on par with Fitz? Not to mention the fact that he had less weapons to work with. At least Fitz had a solid run game to work off of.