hondo in seattle Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Honest question: how many teams don't also have a Rochester equivalent or larger within similar distance? The Rochester draw doesn't seem unique or special to our market when I think about it. For instance: New Orleans has baton rouge and Biloxi, Nashville has Memphis, Milwaukee is a little further for green bay (2hrs), Seattle has Tacoma (even closer), miami has ft lauderdale, tampa has orlando less than 2 hours etc..... Every team large or small leverages the regional draw. Without Toronto, we're not closing any market gap. Yep. I live in Seattle and know that Tacoma is not the size of Rochester but the point is valid. Seattle has all of Washington to itself. Denver has all of Colorado. Green Bay may be a smaller city than Buffalo but they enjoy the support of the whole state. Buffalo shares NY with 2 other NFL clubs in the more populous part of the state. If we don't regionalize into Canada, we're in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 The Bills in Western NY will always be the Buffalo Bills. If they move, it's going to be to LA or Toronto, in either case they are giving up on Western NY and most of us would give up on them. To suggest that a name change would encourage more regionalization is way off base in my mind. Anyone who knows anything about branding understands that brand value can account for upwards of 50% of a companys/brands worth (up to 70% for ones like Coke and McDonalds). You're not going to start over with a new name unless the potential benefits of doing so were extrememly high (as could be the case in a LA or Toronto move). To re-brand in Western NY would just break down the 50 years of brand loyalty and recognition that you have built. It would be a disaster in my opinion. I mean, how many times in the last 75 years have you seen this done in sports (not counting the Tennesse Oilers changing to the Titans a year after relocation)? It's only done with significant relocations. What about the Boston Patriots becoming the New England Patriots? They still have just a loyal fan base in Boston and are considered Boston's team - even though they play further away than Buffalo to Orchard Park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) Yep. I live in Seattle and know that Tacoma is not the size of Rochester but the point is valid. Seattle has all of Washington to itself. Denver has all of Colorado. Green Bay may be a smaller city than Buffalo but they enjoy the support of the whole state. Buffalo shares NY with 2 other NFL clubs in the more populous part of the state. If we don't regionalize into Canada, we're in trouble. i just looked up similar census numbers and really the smallest on that list was only like 40-50k less people. tacoma i think is closer than you realize with only a 10k gap(atleast census data suggests, which i understand is not a complete picture) another valid point you bring up is the splitting. Id say another thing to keep in mind is that cleveland, and pittsburgh both have their own radius that likely shrinks that extended market we can tap to successfully regionalize. toronto really is the unique feature, the rest leaves us at a bit of a breakeven or sometimes lagging behind other markets that are already larger. What about the Boston Patriots becoming the New England Patriots? They still have just a loyal fan base in Boston and are considered Boston's team - even though they play further away than Buffalo to Orchard Park. well, that was 40 years ago and during a league merger... i think the situation here has a slightly different dynamic. Edited July 16, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockpile Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I highly doubt that the two other "New York" teams draw many fans away from Buffalo. Yep. I live in Seattle and know that Tacoma is not the size of Rochester but the point is valid. Seattle has all of Washington to itself. Denver has all of Colorado. Green Bay may be a smaller city than Buffalo but they enjoy the support of the whole state. Buffalo shares NY with 2 other NFL clubs in the more populous part of the state. If we don't regionalize into Canada, we're in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) I highly doubt that the two other "New York" teams draw many fans away from Buffalo. realistically, id bet as you get further east you get people that would be bills fans if not for the giants/jets if not just for state pride over becoming fans of philadelphia or the like. if you just dropped those teams, football fans would go elsewhere in some volume. i wouldnt expect NYC to be covered in bills gear, but its definitely shaped our teams footprint in the state some. Edited July 16, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockpile Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 No argument. I am sure Jets and Giants fans think themselves as NY fans. I am only hesitant to believe that a significant volume of fans from eastern NY state would attend Bills games regularly, if those teams did not exist. Ticket sales is the issue, right?. realistically, id bet as you get further east you get people that would be bills fans if not for the giants/jets if not just for state pride over becoming fans of philadelphia or the like. if you just dropped those teams, football fans would go elsewhere in some volume. i wouldnt expect NYC to be covered in bills gear, but its definitely shaped our teams footprint in the state some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark80 Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) What about the Boston Patriots becoming the New England Patriots? They still have just a loyal fan base in Boston and are considered Boston's team - even though they play further away than Buffalo to Orchard Park. That's only one example, and really not even a good one. They were only the Boston Patriots for 10 years and it didn't involve any change in Nickname or logo. You might as well have just posted the baseball changes of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays to the Tampa Rays and the Florida Marlins to the Miami Marlins. Really only minute changes for relatively young teams. Some posters in this thread are talking of changing the nickname of "Bills" for a 50 year staple of the AFL/NFL, that's completely different in my mind especially considering the current value of an NFL team compared to the value of a team in 1970. Edited July 16, 2012 by Mark80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millbank Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) No argument. I am sure Jets and Giants fans think themselves as NY fans. I am only hesitant to believe that a significant volume of fans from eastern NY state would attend Bills games regularly, if those teams did not exist. Ticket sales is the issue, right?. hmmm Mr. Rockpile.... are you drinking or is that guy imbibing milk up there.... ? ( don't know how to speak with you anymore, i old twitter, facebook , ect to complex for me need instruction, pm ?) Edited July 16, 2012 by millbank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockpile Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 hmmm Mr. Rockpile.... are you drinking or is that guy imbibing milk up there.... ? I would be imbibing if I did not have to to work in two hours! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millbank Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) I would be imbibing if I did not have to to work in two hours! Edited July 16, 2012 by millbank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 That's only one example, and really not even a good one. They were only the Boston Patriots for 10 years and it didn't involve any change in Nickname or logo. You might as well have just posted the baseball changes of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays to the Tampa Rays and the Florida Marlins to the Miami Marlins. Really only minute changes for relatively young teams. Some posters in this thread are talking of changing the nickname of "Bills" for a 50 year staple of the AFL/NFL, that's completely different in my mind especially considering the current value of an NFL team compared to the value of a team in 1970. I don't know what anybody else is saying, but I'm saying New England from Boston Patriots would be about the same as Niagara Frontier Bills from Buffalo Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) I don't know what anybody else is saying, but I'm saying New England from Boston Patriots would be about the same as Niagara Frontier Bills from Buffalo Bills. our logo is a buffalo. the niagara frontier bills.... ugh. a few playoff trips will do FAR more to excite the region than anything else. the real issue is no one wants to drive to see a loser. its one thing when its right down the block (i walk myself over to the superdome for saints pre-season, because its convenient even if it doesnt count) and a whole different when you are making a real effort to get there. the team name will not change that. in fact, making it a lame name will make things worse, in my opinion. stadium location can help with it though. Edited July 16, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) I don't know what anybody else is saying, but I'm saying New England from Boston Patriots would be about the same as Niagara Frontier Bills from Buffalo Bills. Yep, I would want to keep the association with "Buffalo Bill" in the name. I do think it's a great metaphor for football. I do like the "Niagara Frontier Bills". I would make the offcial name the Niagara Frontier Buffalo Bills but I think people would naturally truncate it. Canadians might prefer to call them the Niagara Frontier Bills. On the US side it might just remain the Buffalo Bills. I do think they should have some uniform distinction when playing in Canada and I think it would be fun if the Ralph were filled with U.S. and Canadian Jersy's representing the same team. Just because it's a change does not make it bad. Sports fans who believe that the Franchise can keep pace just by posting a winning record are ignoring a lot of accounting in a post Ralph world. This probably belongs in a separate post but there are a lot of good reasons for Wilson to sell this team before the tax law changes. The capital gains tax will increase by 5% from 15% to 20%. If the Bush tax cuts are not continued and in addition there is the additional taxation burden on the wealthy (Ralph Wilson) that the health care law will implement. Ralph might save his estate 8% of one Billion dollars if he sells before the tax cuts expire or if they are implemented only on the wealthy. Let's see how much is 8 % of one Billion? = It's more that the total income of everyone on two Bills drive. Edited July 16, 2012 by Trader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 The Buffalo Bills of the Niagara Frontier? Like the Angels? I always liked the word Niagara Frontier because it encompassed to the East of Buffalo and Canada, and the word Niagara is so famous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
You herd it hear last Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I don't know what anybody else is saying, but I'm saying New England from Boston Patriots would be about the same as Niagara Frontier Bills from Buffalo Bills. Does anybody even get the association between the words; Buffalo and Bills? It's based on an historical figure, William "Buffalo Bill" Cody... thus the play on words! if I'm correct, is the only one in sports of that nature. here's the wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Bill How anybody could separate the two and even THINK that it makes sense is beyond rational thought. On the same side of things, the Sabres logo is the only logo in sports (that I can think of) that you can surmise both the city and franchise name by just the images (no letters). odd huh? any others?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 How anybody could separate the two and even THINK that it makes sense is beyond rational thought. How anyone could think the name of the team make any difference at all regarding attendance is beyond rational thought to me. If the team changed it's name to the Niagara Falls Nancies but kept playing at the Ralph would you stop going just for that reason? Of course not. Putting a Stadium somewhere else could affect attendance of course, but the name is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
You herd it hear last Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) How anyone could think the name of the team make any difference at all regarding attendance is beyond rational thought to me. If the team changed it's name to the Niagara Falls Nancies but kept playing at the Ralph would you stop going just for that reason? Of course not. Putting a Stadium somewhere else could affect attendance of course, but the name is irrelevant. Not arguing that. Simply saying that putting the moniker "Bills" next to any other city just looks ridiculous to me. The association of the name then goes to the next obvious thing, the hated thing we get in the mail from the power, cell company, etc. The name should reflect the people in the stands. If they were to move to Niagara, either keep it the same or make a complete sensible change. And yes the name of your product is VERY relevant. Edited July 16, 2012 by madtowntobuffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Does anybody even get the association between the words; Buffalo and Bills? It's based on an historical figure, William "Buffalo Bill" Cody... thus the play on words! if I'm correct, is the only one in sports of that nature. here's the wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Bill How anybody could separate the two and even THINK that it makes sense is beyond rational thought. On the same side of things, the Sabres logo is the only logo in sports (that I can think of) that you can surmise both the city and franchise name by just the images (no letters). odd huh? any others?? I honestly was an adult before I realized that a bill wasn't another name for a buffalo, like a bison. I had no idea it had anything to do with Buffalo Bill Cody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
You herd it hear last Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 How anyone could think the name of the team make any difference at all regarding attendance is beyond rational thought to me. If the team changed it's name to the Niagara Falls Nancies but kept playing at the Ralph would you stop going just for that reason? Of course not. Putting a Stadium somewhere else could affect attendance of course, but the name is irrelevant. When I see you walking down the street sportin' your fancy Nancies jersey, I'll give you a wink. And, yes, if our front office were to change the name to that, I most certainly would no longer be a fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
You herd it hear last Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Not arguing that. Simply saying that putting the moniker "Bills" next to any other city just looks ridiculous to me. The association of the name then goes to the next obvious thing, the hated thing we get in the mail from the power, cell company, etc. The name should reflect the people in the stands. If they were to move to Niagara, either keep it the same or make a complete sensible change. And yes the name of your product is VERY relevant. After shamefully re-reading my previous post, I realized the perfect name if and when they move to Niagara Falls... The Niagara Energy Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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