Dragonborn10 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I fly into Buffalo every year because of the Bills. I usually go through about two thousand dollars in cash while I'm in town and that's just me. I bring two or three people with with me every time I fly up from Miami and they spend just as much loot as I do. You can't tell me that the Bills don't help the economy in Buffalo. I just don't believe that. Stadiums and Pro Teams of any sport are never a postivie for the local economy and usually drain resources better uesed elsewhere. This hs been shown multiple times. I wrote a paper on this while I was in Cleveland and they were passing the sin tax to pay for Jacobs Field. Don't get me wrong I think having a pro sports team is a reasonable use of public dollars but you have to realize they bring no economic benefit. Why is it college teams can get massive stadiums built and huge upgrades even at state institutions with no public money other than that which is donated, and NFL stadiums are basically financed on the backs of people who can't afford the tickets???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Stadiums and Pro Teams of any sport are never a postivie for the local economy and usually drain resources better uesed elsewhere. This hs been shown multiple times. I wrote a paper on this while I was in Cleveland and they were passing the sin tax to pay for Jacobs Field. Don't get me wrong I think having a pro sports team is a reasonable use of public dollars but you have to realize they bring no economic benefit. Why is it college teams can get massive stadiums built and huge upgrades even at state institutions with no public money other than that which is donated, and NFL stadiums are basically financed on the backs of people who can't afford the tickets???? What colleges are having massive new stadiums built? Most colleges play in very old crusty stadiums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The only sport - college or pro - that I don't have a team is the NBA. Once the Braves left, my heart was never into any other team. (Actually, now I do have a team - whoever is playing the Heat.) go to go with the Celtics and Red Sox for the other sports. Syracuse for college football and have always had a sweet spot for Nebraska and then who ever is doing well in the Big 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Amazing people consider tax's a "revenue." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 "Having people imagine it and what they would do without the team is a good thing," said Indiana University social psychologist Dr. Edward Hirt. "People need to anticipate that, and the more we do that the more prepared we are when it happens." Hey Ed, How bout you imagine your wife getting plugged by the postman. So you can cope better when you find out. It's a good thing. Love it! Perfect response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 These studies are VERY poorly done and studies are only as good as their assumptions. For instance, I myself have club seat season tickets because I love the Bills. I buy jerseys for my kids, go to the games, buy food pay for parking etc....I know many of you do the same. Conservatively say that is 5K a year. The studies assume that instead of me spending that money on the Bills I am going to go to the local mall instead, go to a loccal restaurant and spend the money there. I can guarantee you I am NOT spending 5k Sept thru Dec on Sundays at local restaurants, the mall and local businesses. So instead I will take my family on vacation. Go to NOTL or Toronto and spend it there if there was no Bills. There is more to do there than Buffalo. So the idea it takes money away from local business is a poor assumption. I know I am not the only one who would take that money and end up spending the majority of it on other things...many out of town. Also, stadiums can be economically enhancing to an area if they are done right. Baltimore Camden Yard for example. Had you been to Baltimore before the stadium was built? Little activity etc....on game day/night the place is fun, thousands of people, great activity. Great article by Tim but I don't think it captures just the devastation it would have to this area, our history, our great memories, if the Bills ever left. It is a local treasure that is part of this community the same way the Yankess are a part of New York, Red Sox in Boston, Green Bay and the Packers, etc..... Some teams help define the community. I like many of you travel a lot and without fail the only two things associated with Buffalo are snow and the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) Love it! Perfect response. More than likely it would get you in the nut house. Edited February 21, 2012 by Jim in Anchorage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Stadiums and Pro Teams of any sport are never a postivie for the local economy and usually drain resources better uesed elsewhere. This hs been shown multiple times. I wrote a paper on this while I was in Cleveland and they were passing the sin tax to pay for Jacobs Field. Don't get me wrong I think having a pro sports team is a reasonable use of public dollars but you have to realize they bring no economic benefit. Why is it college teams can get massive stadiums built and huge upgrades even at state institutions with no public money other than that which is donated, and NFL stadiums are basically financed on the backs of people who can't afford the tickets???? Interesting how you don't equate college tuition to a ticket students can't afford. Tuition is insane and is the primary tax that supports those college sports programs. Since most college students require huge loans is it safe to say that college tuition lending institutions are the real underwriters of college sports? How many Bills fans have to take out loans to watch Bills games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DE Bills Fan Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I fly into Buffalo every year because of the Bills. I usually go through about two thousand dollars in cash while I'm in town and that's just me. I bring two or three people with with me every time I fly up from Miami and they spend just as much loot as I do. You can't tell me that the Bills don't help the economy in Buffalo. I just don't believe that. I agree that the BILLS bring incremental revenue into the region. However, losing the BILLS will have no material impact to the region. While it is true that you and others, me included, come up to Buffalo for a game a year and overall, people spend incremental money on game day for food, drink, souveneirs, hotel, gas, etc. But the reality is that is only 8 games a year (taking the Toronto and 2 preseason games into account which are only half-attended). If you take the $8MM in subsidies that the state would save by the BILLS moving vs. the incremental Income Taxes lost (~$8MM on $120MM of Salaries @ an 8.65% State Income Tax Rate) couple with incremental game-day spending, it is less than one-half of one percent of the total annual GDP of the region cited as $45.15 Billion in the article for 2010). So it would hurt the region, but in a very, very small way financially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 These studies are VERY poorly done and studies are only as good as their assumptions. For instance, I myself have club seat season tickets because I love the Bills. I buy jerseys for my kids, go to the games, buy food pay for parking etc....I know many of you do the same. Conservatively say that is 5K a year. The studies assume that instead of me spending that money on the Bills I am going to go to the local mall instead, go to a loccal restaurant and spend the money there. I can guarantee you I am NOT spending 5k Sept thru Dec on Sundays at local restaurants, the mall and local businesses. So instead I will take my family on vacation. Go to NOTL or Toronto and spend it there if there was no Bills. There is more to do there than Buffalo. So the idea it takes money away from local business is a poor assumption. I know I am not the only one who would take that money and end up spending the majority of it on other things...many out of town. Also, stadiums can be economically enhancing to an area if they are done right. Baltimore Camden Yard for example. Had you been to Baltimore before the stadium was built? Little activity etc....on game day/night the place is fun, thousands of people, great activity. Great article by Tim but I don't think it captures just the devastation it would have to this area, our history, our great memories, if the Bills ever left. It is a local treasure that is part of this community the same way the Yankess are a part of New York, Red Sox in Boston, Green Bay and the Packers, etc..... Some teams help define the community. I like many of you travel a lot and without fail the only two things associated with Buffalo are snow and the Bills. Exactly. If the Bills leave Buffalo, there goes a good percentage of people that come to Buffalo. How about doing a quick study on flights into Buffalo during football season? Check the toll roads and see how much the tolls increase around football games from out of state? Check with hotels and restaurants and see how sales increase during football season? Compare that data to times of the year when football is not played. I mean this should not be that hard to do. If the bills leave Buffalo it is the final nail in the coffin. In 25 years that town will be down to about 200,000 people. Sorry guys but Buffalo needs the Bills, it is really the only reason why so many of us come back there. Niagra Falls is great, but people just do not care about it like they did 30 years ago. To the poster who said sports teams are a drain on the community, i have seen other studies debunk that theory. But oh well, like many in Buffalo when the Bills are gone, they wont be happy, just like they are not happy they are there now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Interesting how you don't equate college tuition to a ticket students can't afford. Tuition is insane and is the primary tax that supports those college sports programs. Since most college students require huge loans is it safe to say that college tuition lending institutions are the real underwriters of college sports? How many Bills fans have to take out loans to watch Bills games? It seems to me that tuition is just as high at schools without football or without D1 football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Exactly. If the Bills leave Buffalo, there goes a good percentage of people that come to Buffalo. How about doing a quick study on flights into Buffalo during football season? Check the toll roads and see how much the tolls increase around football games from out of state? Check with hotels and restaurants and see how sales increase during football season? Compare that data to times of the year when football is not played. I mean this should not be that hard to do. If the bills leave Buffalo it is the final nail in the coffin. In 25 years that town will be down to about 200,000 people. Sorry guys but Buffalo needs the Bills, it is really the only reason why so many of us come back there. Niagra Falls is great, but people just do not care about it like they did 30 years ago. To the poster who said sports teams are a drain on the community, i have seen other studies debunk that theory. But oh well, like many in Buffalo when the Bills are gone, they wont be happy, just like they are not happy they are there now. You're completely right that it is not hard to do and ask any hotel owner how they do the weekend of a Bills game vs a random weekend...not even close. How come the ONLY time in Buffalo you have to adjust your driving for traffic is during a Bills game day? It doesn't happen when the Albright has a new exhibit....I'm sorry it just does not. Tens of thousands from Rochester and Ontario come to Buffalo. The idea that Hamburd and OP would not suffer as the realtor suggests seems pretty riiculous to me. So you have now 60 players and their families leaving, doznes or administrative staff, dozens of coaches and their families. Ahhh, yes there are huge amounts of millionaires coming to live in OP and Hamburg if the Bills leave as it is such a growing area. I do agree that sports over value their worth and benefit, but the idea that it has a net zero effect on an area like Buffalo is preposterous. Quality of life and entertainemnt and things to do are a major reason to live places and Buffalo would lose a huge amount of draw for minimal people it already does if the Bills left. But in the end they will NOT leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 It seems to me that tuition is just as high at schools without football or without D1 football. Excellent point. Now ask yourself why that is and what are the differences such as geography and academic reputation. As a non-athlete student how is your money being spent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Trooth Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 though the "psychological effect" of having a team in town counters this. Bull. If it can't be measured, it don't count. What, if the Bills leave is everyone gonna turn into zombies? Will the lights in the city go out? When the Rochester Royals left in the late fifties, did Rochester go into a tailspin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 i dont know about any one else, but i felt poorly for quite awhile after the royals. Might have been the flu though. Then we lost that more recent rochester minor league BB team. Was that the seventies or 80's? That one i noticed a bit more.But have forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTW2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 The idea that Hamburd and OP would not suffer as the realtor suggests seems pretty riiculous to me. So you have now 60 players and their families leaving, doznes or administrative staff, dozens of coaches and their families. Ahhh, yes there are huge amounts of millionaires coming to live in OP and Hamburg if the Bills leave as it is such a growing area. That was addressed in the article. "Not one Realtor would be impacted by the Bills not being here," said Maureen Flavin, an agent who specializes in high-end properties and has represented several Buffalo Sabres and Bills clients over the past 20 years. "So many of them rent, and the places they rent are highly desirable. I could rent those places out in my sleep. There are way more people who want to rent than places to rent." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 You're completely right that it is not hard to do and ask any hotel owner how they do the weekend of a Bills game vs a random weekend...not even close. How come the ONLY time in Buffalo you have to adjust your driving for traffic is during a Bills game day? It doesn't happen when the Albright has a new exhibit....I'm sorry it just does not. Tens of thousands from Rochester and Ontario come to Buffalo. The idea that Hamburd and OP would not suffer as the realtor suggests seems pretty riiculous to me. So you have now 60 players and their families leaving, doznes or administrative staff, dozens of coaches and their families. Ahhh, yes there are huge amounts of millionaires coming to live in OP and Hamburg if the Bills leave as it is such a growing area. I do agree that sports over value their worth and benefit, but the idea that it has a net zero effect on an area like Buffalo is preposterous. Quality of life and entertainemnt and things to do are a major reason to live places and Buffalo would lose a huge amount of draw for minimal people it already does if the Bills left. But in the end they will NOT leave. I agree with your post and would like to add something more. Professional sports teams and their impacts can't be measured in a vacuum. Each sports team effects areas differently. Imagine Green Bay without the Packers and how devastating economically that would be. With the Bills being the only pro sports team in town it would be damaging if they left to the hotels, airports, restaurants, etc... The impact of they have Buffalo is different from an area that has other things to offer. It is the only major ticket in town. If there were other sports teams or other draws to the area (I'm not forgetting Niagara Falls but a lot of that money is spent on the Canadian side) then the impact of them leaving would be lessened. It is THE identifying factor for Buffalo as others have pointed out. If your not from the area and mention Buffalo as others have pointed out they will either talk about snow or the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Interestingly, there was an article today in the St. Louis magazine with the same theme of "we must prepare for the innevitable loss". Actually, that article more or less states that the Rams move is a done deal and lists some compelling reasons. This article is not so gloomy. I think the Rams, Chargers and Raiders are all in far more danger of relocation. The Bills could certainly move, but I think that they- like the Vikings- are more likely to stay put. The Rams, Chargers and Raiders do not have owners on death's door who have said directly that the team will be auctioned off to the highest bidder. Period, end of story. So don't compare the Bills to those franchises. In theory, if Ralph passed tomorrow, the Bills could be on the auction block by the end of the year. Assuming Ralph is good for his word, I cannot imagine making a once in a lifetime $800million (that's in millions) investment in an NFL franchise (or any other entity for that matter) and trying to make it work financially in WNY. The numbers could not possibly come close to working relative to an $800m investment. Ralph makes it work because he spent $25,000 for the team. Once Ralph is gone, the team is gone, barring some gratuitous miracle from a gracious donor or donors willing to simply lose money hand over fist (let's hope they are out there) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTW2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I agree with your post and would like to add something more. Professional sports teams and their impacts can't be measured in a vacuum. Each sports team effects areas differently. Imagine Green Bay without the Packers and how devastating economically that would be. With the Bills being the only pro sports team in town it would be damaging if they left to the hotels, airports, restaurants, etc... The impact of they have Buffalo is different from an area that has other things to offer. It is the only major ticket in town. If there were other sports teams or other draws to the area (I'm not forgetting Niagara Falls but a lot of that money is spent on the Canadian side) then the impact of them leaving would be lessened. It is THE identifying factor for Buffalo as others have pointed out. If your not from the area and mention Buffalo as others have pointed out they will either talk about snow or the Bills. People seem to be going with a "gut feeling" that Bills' games generate significant revenue, i.e. hotels, restaurants, etc. Think about it, though. The Bills play 7 home games in a suburban stadium, away from the metro center. How many fans come from out of town? How many stay overnight in a hotel? How many out-of-towners frequent local establishments? I don't have the numbers to back any conclusion regarding WNY; neither does anyone else here. However, study after study after study after study conclude that sports teams' impact on local economies is negligible at best. No, none of those studies are specific to Buffalo; however, I doubt Buffalo is that special as to stray from the norm. The article in question states the last specific WNY study was done in 1996. What has changed since then? TV and merchandising revenue has presumably skyrocketed; however, neither affects the local economy. Players' salaries have increased dramatically; the article states players don't exactly drop alot of their cash locally. Fan spending? Well, there are fewer people going to games now, due to the decrease in seating and home games. The only real economic benefit to WNY would be if there are more out-of-town fans spending significantly more money in the local economy. That's the real question- is more out-of-town money coming into WNY, and does that off-set or exceed the cost to WNY to keep the team here? I don't have the answer, and no one here does either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Again, per my other post..."studies" these are not and many of the articles cited are from professors own opinions. Go onto CNBC today and see two economics professors saying two completely different things about the same topic. I do agree with the premise that owners overstate the economic impact when building stadiums. This is what two of the articles talk about but this is NOT what we are talking with the Bills leaving. Also comparing the Montreal Expos moving to DC is 100% different when comparing promises of a new stadium in DC to the Bills leaving Buffalo. A stadium in our nation's capitol that has hundreds of things to do is a lot different than the Bills in Buffalo. I would think everyone would agree going to Washington there are at least 50 other things I would do before going to a Washington DC baseball game. And the other studies talk about the New York Stadiums, again a much different market than Buffalo. Any person living here can tell you there is absolutely NO other event that comes close to bringing tens of thousands of people to one area of Buffalo and spend their money here. The average length of time people come and stay to a Bills game is longer than the average person comes and stays in Niagara Falls NY....not the Canadian side but the US side. The Bills are unique to Buffalo so you cannot compare their impact to a frnachise moving to major metropolitan market. Compare the Bills leaving to The Packers or Steelers leaving. Alabama or Michigan or Ohio State shutting down their college football programs. See how that would go over. I'm sure Ann Arbor would have 100k people just spend the same amount of money in Ann Arbor those weekends and the hotels and restaurants would be full anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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