going 43 ?

[....lybob]

You realize right now that Chris Kelsay is probably our best DE right? Assuming we move back to a 4-3.

If Chris Kelsay is part of the plan then the plan is to be mediocre- Kelsay has 5.5 sacks his best season with the Bills but maybe the tenth season is the charm.

 

The problem is going to be at RDE in a 4-3 because the Bills don't have anyone who's a good fit there- The Bills will need to grab at least one in Free agency and the one in the draft

 

I'd suggest Jeremy Mincey as the free agent and whoever is the consensus DE (Coples, Ingram, or Mercilus) after the combine and pro-days.

 

At LDE Carrington and Gilbert are fine

 

At DT Williams, Dareus, Heard, Troup

[mob16151]

If Chris Kelsay is part of the plan then the plan is to be mediocre- Kelsay has 5.5 sacks his best season with the Bills but maybe the tenth season is the charm.

 

The problem is going to be at RDE in a 4-3 because the Bills don't have anyone who's a good fit there- The Bills will need to grab at least one in Free agency and the one in the draft

 

I'd suggest Jeremy Mincey as the free agent and whoever is the consensus DE (Coples, Ingram, or Mercilus) after the combine and pro-days.

 

At LDE Carrington and Gilbert are fine

 

At DT Williams, Dareus, Heard, Troup

 

What part of right now is confusing?

[atlbillsfan1975]

What moves are those?

 

Dwan Edwards who did his job and can now be cut without loss? Merriman?

 

They didn't really make any moves at OLB or NT other than those two, which is why they struggled with a 3-4, missing arguably the two cornerstone pieces of the defense.

 

Troupe is the only guy who they drafted that makes no sense now - and his failure to play well/stay healthy probably has a good bit to do with them wanting to play 4-3, since his busting means they still don't have a real NT they can rely on.

 

Dareus and Williams will look great as a pair of 4-3 DT's. That's also Spencer Johnson's natural position.

 

Kelsay obviously belongs at 4-3 DE more than OLB. If he's too slow for what they want, Carrington can lose the weight they asked him to add and be a 4-3 DE which was his natural position too.

 

Sheppard and Barnett can both play.

 

I guess we can agree they haven't made as much intellectual/training/experience gains because they are switching schemes, but you didn't want to stick with the Tampa-2 did you? I don't think Wanny's 4-3 is going to look anything like Jauron's did.

maybe one of the best posts i have ever read here.

And very accurate.

Not sure which way the team will go, but maybe both? 34/43? I mean if you have guys that can play both why not tak eadvantage of that? The rule sof the game are so slanted towards the Offense, Deffenses have to scheme like crazy. And then have talent to go with the scheme.Not vice versa

Edited January 20, 2012 by atlbillsfan1975

[Turbosrrgood]

I think the term everyone is looking for to describe the Bills defense in 2012 will be multiple front. I imagine we'll see 3-4,4-3,4-3 40 front,5-2,zone blitz and 46.

 

I think we'll need heady defensive players.

 

I'm going to go ahead and say this is a pipe dream...IMO, you don't take a defense that is good at nothing, and try to make them do everything...Pick a scheme, adjust your roster accordingly and make it work...

[....lybob]

Cap savings for cutting some players

 

Merriman $5,250,000

 

Kelsay $3,550,000

 

Dwan Edwards $3,975,000

 

Spencer Johnson $3,500,000

 

Drayton $3,583,332

 

McGee $2,100,000

 

Thigpen $2,000,000

 

 

My link

 

 

You realize right now that Chris Kelsay is probably our best DE right? Assuming we move back to a 4-3.

 

 

If Chris Kelsay is part of the plan then the plan is to be mediocre- Kelsay has 5.5 sacks his best season with the Bills but maybe the tenth season is the charm.

 

The problem is going to be at RDE in a 4-3 because the Bills don't have anyone who's a good fit there- The Bills will need to grab at least one in Free agency and the one in the draft

 

I'd suggest Jeremy Mincey as the free agent and whoever is the consensus DE (Coples, Ingram, or Mercilus) after the combine and pro-days.

 

At LDE Carrington and Gilbert are fine

 

At DT Williams, Dareus, Heard, Troup

 

 

What part of right now is confusing?

my first post was just a list of cap savings from different players, your response sounded like you were offended I even had Kelsay in the list- sorry Kelsay is 32 and has never been anything but mediocre he perfectly deserves to be looked at as someone who's cap savings could be combined with others to bring in a couple high quality free agents.

[mob16151]

my first post was just a list of cap savings from different players, your response sounded like you were offended I even had Kelsay in the list- sorry Kelsay is 32 and has never been anything but mediocre he perfectly deserves to be looked at as someone who's cap savings could be combined with others to bring in a couple high quality free agents.

 

Kelsays a nice rotational guy, but shouldn't be a starter. I really,really,really, doubt the Bills release him though. Call it a hunch.

[Danny]

Here is the thing about Kelsay. You may save 3 and a half million by cutting him but you need to consider that if you do you will also have over 2 million in dead money. The question then becomes, can you sign a player for only 3-3.5 mil. who will give you what kelsay does. I dont think you can when you factor in the fact that kelsay is one of the leaders on defense.

 

Having said that i never thought much of Kelsay and couldnt believe they signed him to the contract he got. But as far as the numbers go.. i think the best move would be to keep him. Especially if they switch back to a 43 next year.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

I guess we can agree they haven't made as much intellectual/training/experience gains because they are switching schemes, but you didn't want to stick with the Tampa-2 did you? I don't think Wanny's 4-3 is going to look anything like Jauron's did.

 

Heck yeah! big 43 with 320-340 Lb DTs like he had in Dallas and Miami.

[swnybillsfan]

Heck yeah! big 43 with 320-340 Lb DTs like he had in Dallas and Miami.

i'm thinking this could be a beautiful thing. putting the big bodies in the middle to try to clog running lanes and collapse the pocket up the middle. and i think kelsay is just fine manning one of the de spots, but also grabbing a true threat to go on the other side would be imperitive. my dream right now would be to get the best availabe de and olb somewhere in 2 of the 1st 3 rounds with a big nasty ol mixed in there somewhere. i know, it lacks imagination, but that's the way i'm looking at it.

[Astrobot]

i'm thinking this could be a beautiful thing. putting the big bodies in the middle to try to clog running lanes and collapse the pocket up the middle. and i think kelsay is just fine manning one of the de spots, but also grabbing a true threat to go on the other side would be imperitive. my dream right now would be to get the best availabe de and olb somewhere in 2 of the 1st 3 rounds with a big nasty ol mixed in there somewhere. i know, it lacks imagination, but that's the way i'm looking at it.

 

Your wish is my command.

1 10 Whitney Mercilus OLB Illinois

2 42 Levy Adcock OT Oklahoma State

3 74 Billy Winn DE Boise State

4 105 Hebron Fangupo DT BYU

4 125 Malik Jackson OLB Tennessee

5 (Names here include Cliff Harris CB Oregon, Deangelo Peterson TE LSU, Brock Osweiler QB ASU, and

Nicolas Jean-Baptiste DT Baylor)

 

See my sig line for another approach.

 

With Wood and Levitre, you have to get Bushrod in FA and Adcock in RD2.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Astrobot

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Your wish is my command.

1 10 Whitney Mercilus OLB Illinois

2 42 Levy Adcock OT Oklahoma State

3 74 Billy Winn DE Boise State

4 105 Hebron Fangupo DT BYU

4 125 Malik Jackson OLB Tennessee

5 Nicolas Jean-Baptiste DT Baylor

 

See my sig line for another approach.

 

With Wood and Levitre, you have to get Bushrod in FA and Adcock in RD2.

Do you really think the Bills should draft the President of Haiti in the 5th round?

 

I'm not convinced he'd choose Buffalo over a presidential palace in the Caribbean. JMO.

 

 

[RealityCheck]

Our biggest deficiency this year based on pass rush came when we were in the nickel with a 4 man front, not the 3 man. That being said, regardless of scheme, we clearly need big time 4-3 style DEs. I never understood the move to the 3-4 when in todays NFL you are typically in a 4 man front on passing downs. If we stay in a 3-4, we will still be using a 4 man front against the Pats around 60% of the time. No matter how you cut it, 4 man style DEs are needed asap.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Our biggest deficiency this year based on pass rush came when we were in the nickel with a 4 man front, not the 3 man. That being said, regardless of scheme, we clearly need big time 4-3 style DEs. I never understood the move to the 3-4 when in todays NFL you are typically in a 4 man front on passing downs. If we stay in a 3-4, we will still be using a 4 man front against the Pats around 60% of the time. No matter how you cut it, 4 man style DEs are needed asap.

The counterpoint is that lots of 3-4 teams stay with the base 3-4 on passing downs and make the offense guess which guys they're gonna send.

[RealityCheck]

The counterpoint is that lots of 3-4 teams stay with the base 3-4 on passing downs and make the offense guess which guys they're gonna send.

That approach to defense is becoming less effective as more teams utilize the spread. When I've watched empty backfield looks against base 3-4 it's usually a 1st down for the offense. Also, most people confuse that base 3-4 look with the fact that where you would have OLBs you actually have DBs. In todays NFL, every down is a likely passing situation based on the Offense's formation. Why not put great players in the 4 man so that on any given down and distance you have guys that can get pressure without having to blitz all the time. I prefer a scheme that does not require the DC to be the smartest guy on the sideline.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

That approach to defense is becoming less effective as more teams utilize the spread. When I've watched empty backfield looks against base 3-4 it's usually a 1st down for the offense. Also, most people confuse that base 3-4 look with the fact that where you would have OLBs you actually have DBs. In todays NFL, every down is a likely passing situation based on the Offense's formation. Why not put great players in the 4 man so that on any given down and distance you have guys that can get pressure without having to blitz all the time. I prefer a scheme that does not require the DC to be the smartest guy on the sideline.

Good points.

 

Certainly the Giants are not a fancy, "fooled you" sort of defense.

 

 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

Kelsays a nice rotational guy, but shouldn't be a starter. I really,really,really, doubt the Bills release him though. Call it a hunch.

 

I think he's nearing he end of his contract too, where the money kicks in.

 

But the fact is we can't cut the guy and create another hole. He's a serviceable end; we need a stud DE rusher on the opposite side. With a stud DE and Dareus and Williams pushing the pocket, Kelsay will be very servicaeble.

[steampunk]

Heck yeah! big 43 with 320-340 Lb DTs like he had in Dallas and Miami.

 

A big 43 has never been Wannstedt's philosophy. Personnel-wise that system believes in smaller, faster players in the same mold as the Tampa people the Bills have been moving away from.

 

Remember that the Dallas DTs you are referring to, Leon Lett, Russell Maryland, Jimmie Jones, Tony Casillas etc were all 300 lbs or less. The Wanny/JJ regime in Miami did get a little bit bigger with low 300s Bowens and Gardener in the middle, but they didn't pick up any 340 lb slobberknockers like Keith Traylor until Saban got hired and wanted true NTs. Sisphyean Bills quote about Wanny remaking the Bears D in his image also mentions the undersized Flanigan and Zorich, the 275 and 290 lb DTs he used on the Bears line. That's been his philosophy for the JJ 43 that Dave has run throughout his career. 43s often use smaller personnel than 34s (with notable exceptions like the Buddy Ball fronts), but the JJ/DW version used smaller people even for a 43. I remember this old Jimmy Johnson quote about how he wanted safeties for OLBs, LBs for ends, DEs for tackles.

 

I think that's been my biggest worry about the Wannstedt promotion; that he takes them back to small ball. Because I love stout defenses, and I hated watching that Jauron D get pushed around every week. I've been hoping some of the good reporters like J. Wawrow or M. Gaughn would start asking the right question. I don't think the question is what front they might be in 51% of the time. Hardly matters. The question I'd love to hear explored is how the new coordinator's career-long defensive personnel philosophy might affect the drafting and pro player approach at One Bills Drive.

 

I know it's possible he could change. Incorporate bigger bodies in the style that Nix has preferred so far. I hope so, and I think the Bills tackle position is safe from downsizing due to how simply good Dareus and KW are, but the heck with 240 lb DEs or safeties as 'backers.

[Bruce]

I like the 4-3 and think that our personnel is more suited for success now with that alignment.

 

Having the Wannstache running the 'D' will also be a tremendous improvement in scheme, coaching, etc, and we can finally put an end to the ridiculous experiment to use Kelsay and #91 (name escapes me) as outside LB's. I like Kelsay in his natural position as a left DE.

 

The only thing is- I don't see this article as offering any insight into the Bills, in fact, running this scheme as its base.

 

Just repeating what we already knew.

 

Either way, I look forward to the day when this kind of talk and the offseason is not as exciting as the regular season and playoffs are.

 

GO BILLS!

 

A big 43 has never been Wannstedt's philosophy. Personnel-wise that system believes in smaller, faster players in the same mold as the Tampa people the Bills have been moving away from.

 

Remember that the Dallas DTs you are referring to, Leon Lett, Russell Maryland, Jimmie Jones, Tony Casillas etc were all 300 lbs or less. The Wanny/JJ regime in Miami did get a little bit bigger with low 300s Bowens and Gardener in the middle, but they didn't pick up any 340 lb slobberknockers like Keith Traylor until Saban got hired and wanted true NTs. Sisphyean Bills quote about Wanny remaking the Bears D in his image also mentions the undersized Flanigan and Zorich, the 275 and 290 lb DTs he used on the Bears line. That's been his philosophy for the JJ 43 that Dave has run throughout his career. 43s often use smaller personnel than 34s (with notable exceptions like the Buddy Ball fronts), but the JJ/DW version used smaller people even for a 43. I remember this old Jimmy Johnson quote about how he wanted safeties for OLBs, LBs for ends, DEs for tackles.

 

I think that's been my biggest worry about the Wannstedt promotion; that he takes them back to small ball. Because I love stout defenses, and I hated watching that Jauron D get pushed around every week. I've been hoping some of the good reporters like J. Wawrow or M. Gaughn would start asking the right question. I don't think the question is what front they might be in 51% of the time. Hardly matters. The question I'd love to hear explored is how the new coordinator's career-long defensive personnel philosophy might affect the drafting and pro player approach at One Bills Drive.

I know it's possible he could change. Incorporate bigger bodies in the style that Nix has preferred so far. I hope so, and I think the Bills tackle position is safe from downsizing due to how simply good Dareus and KW are, but the heck with 240 lb DEs or safeties as 'backers.

 

 

Dude, totally.

 

I don't know why the sports reporters play such patty-cake games with soft pitch questions.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Bruce

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Dude, totally.

 

I don't know why the sports reporters play such patty-cake games with soft pitch questions.

That's why I really respect Bob McGinn's highly critical article of the team which he covers… the Packers.

 

Writing what he did makes his job so much more difficult and yet, he didn't shirk his responsibility to ask the tough questions and question the moves the team has made.

 

It would be great to see reporting like that from the local Buffalo media.

 

 

[swnybillsfan]

That's why I really respect Bob McGinn's highly critical article of the team which he covers… the Packers.

 

Writing what he did makes his job so much more difficult and yet, he didn't shirk his responsibility to ask the tough questions and question the moves the team has made.

 

It would be great to see reporting like that from the local Buffalo media.

isn't that kinda like what jerry sullivan does here? he's always trying to hold someone accountable and trying to get answers to some pretty rough questions. i know a lot of people here really dislike him, and i do not agree with most of what he says, but i am usually interested in his point of view.