Golisano Talks Future of the Bills in Buffalo

[Mr. WEO]

"Clandestine giving by Ralph?" LOL! It's only "clandestine" if you refuse to see what's plainly in front of your eyes.

 

And Golisano has spent far more on his failed bids to become governor than he's donated to charity. This is not even debatable.

 

Wait, Ralph "runs" the Bills? Or he owns them and hires people to run them? What way do you want to spin this one?

 

Again doc, I applaud Golisano for buying the Sabres and keeping them in Buffalo. However he spent the minimum on the team so as to still turn a small profit. Fortunately for him, he inherited a great coach, a salary cap was instituted a year after buying the team, and it's easy to make the playoffs in the NHL. If he were to buy the Bills, you'd be whining for the days of Ralph's meager spending.

Had you spent 2 minutes to do a google search to back up that bit of silliness, you would have saved yourself more embarrassment. 93 million for 3 campaigns. 145 million and counting in publicly known charity.

 

So all of Ralph's other philanthropic efforts (the ones, as you say, not made public) are right in front of my eyes? OK.

 

The "spin" (fact) is that Ralph owns his business, TG does not. Ralph is President of his company. TG retired as Pres and CEO 7 years ago. Why on earth would you ask if he comes up form Fla to see how the company is running?? Are you also now suggesting that Ralph does not have final say in major company decisions--that others make those for him? Nice try, doc.

 

True enough, TG is not the passionate owner that Pegula seems to be, but he bought the team as a favor to the fans in Buffalo. He knows the NHL is a paupers' league and all he said was don't lose money. His teams did more than fall into the playoffs, as you know. They had a nice run this season also, you might admit--but that would take away form your brilliant "it's easy to make the playoffs" jab at TG.

[Magox]

So I suppose he's the failsafe...

[Doc]

Had you spent 2 minutes to do a google search to back up that bit of silliness, you would have saved yourself more embarrassment. 93 million for 3 campaigns. 145 million and counting in publicly known charity.

 

So all of Ralph's other philanthropic efforts (the ones, as you say, not made public) are right in front of my eyes? OK.

 

The "spin" (fact) is that Ralph owns his business, TG does not. Ralph is President of his company. TG retired as Pres and CEO 7 years ago. Why on earth would you ask if he comes up form Fla to see how the company is running?? Are you also now suggesting that Ralph does not have final say in major company decisions--that others make those for him? Nice try, doc.

 

True enough, TG is not the passionate owner that Pegula seems to be, but he bought the team as a favor to the fans in Buffalo. He knows the NHL is a paupers' league and all he said was don't lose money. His teams did more than fall into the playoffs, as you know. They had a nice run this season also, you might admit--but that would take away form your brilliant "it's easy to make the playoffs" jab at TG.

Yes, according to Golisano's website, he's donated over $145M, versus the $93M he spent on his "quixotic" campaigns. I'm hardly embarrassed. But do you want to retract your claims that Ralph hasn't donated anything to charity OR that "Golisano has given away more money than Ralph has ever made?" Doing the math, in his 50+ years of owning the team, you are saying that Ralph has made about $3M/year, or if you wish, about $8M/year since the start of the salary cap era. Which would make all your complaining about all the money he's been stealing from Erie County, the fans, and the other owners has been a complete waste of time, right?

 

Again doc, most of Golisano's $1.3B net worth is in liquid assets. Ralph's is mostly tied-into the Bills. Yet he donate significantly to charity, considering the paltry amount of money you claim he's made over his lifetime. However I will admit there is no website trumpeting exactly how much Ralph has given away.

 

Golisano is still the Chairman of the Board of Paychex. Must have missed that one on Google.

 

Ralph has kept the team in Buffalo, and he's kept ticket prices the lowest in the league, as a favor to the fans. As for Golisano, despite spending the minimum on the team in order to turn a small profit, including firing every scout and going to video scouting and putting the inept Larry Quinn in charge, the team has done well. Again most of that is due to inheriting Ruff and the fact that 8 out of 15 teams (8 is more than half of 15, so yes, it IS harder to miss the playoffs than make them in the NHL) in a 3-division conference make the playoffs, versus 6 teams out of 16 in a 4-division conference.

[Mr. WEO]

Yes, according to Golisano's website, he's donated over $145M, versus the $93M he spent on his "quixotic" campaigns. I'm hardly embarrassed. But do you want to retract your claims that Ralph hasn't donated anything to charity OR that "Golisano has given away more money than Ralph has ever made?" Doing the math, in his 50+ years of owning the team, you are saying that Ralph has made about $3M/year, or if you wish, about $8M/year since the start of the salary cap era. Which would make all your complaining about all the money he's been stealing from Erie County, the fans, and the other owners has been a complete waste of time, right?

 

Again doc, most of Golisano's $1.3B net worth is in liquid assets. Ralph's is mostly tied-into the Bills. Yet he donate significantly to charity, considering the paltry amount of money you claim he's made over his lifetime. However I will admit there is no website trumpeting exactly how much Ralph has given away.

 

Golisano is still the Chairman of the Board of Paychex. Must have missed that one on Google.

 

Ralph has kept the team in Buffalo, and he's kept ticket prices the lowest in the league, as a favor to the fans. As for Golisano, despite spending the minimum on the team in order to turn a small profit, including firing every scout and going to video scouting and putting the inept Larry Quinn in charge, the team has done well. Again most of that is due to inheriting Ruff and the fact that 8 out of 15 teams (8 is more than half of 15, so yes, it IS harder to miss the playoffs than make them in the NHL) in a 3-division conference make the playoffs, versus 6 teams out of 16 in a 4-division conference.

I'll admit my "more than Ralph has made" was hyperbole. You claimed that your point was beyond debate. What are your thoughts now? And TG didn't become a billionaire overnight, just like Ralph wasn't quite pulling in 20-40 mil a year until the past decade. His 1.3 billion is likely "tied-into" Paychex stock, which he can't exactly liquidate quickly.

 

 

Yes, TG is Chairman of the board. So what? As such, he makes no decisions about the day to day operation of the company. He meets with the rest of the board periodically to review the performance of the company's executives and the company itself, on behalf of the shareholders. So, you've answered your own silly question "does TG come up from Fla to check on his company".

 

Now you can answer whether you believe that Ralph, as owner and President, doesn't have the final say in the management of his team--that "CEO Russ Brandon" is in charge, and that's why Ralph doesn't have to be around? That Ralph is in control of his business seems "not even debatable", doesn't it?

 

And re: Ralph has "kept" ticket prices low as a "favor" to the fans--it's the market that keeps these ticket prices low, doc. And there is not much market for a perennially losing and serially mismanaged team. See the the 20% drop in season ticket sales last year. And even though they may be the lowest prices in the league, it's by a negligible amount--and they are hardly a value.

 

From Forbes 2009:

 

The Bills have posted a wins-per-payroll ratio below the league average each of the five past seasons and have had five different head coaches the past 12 seasons. Incredibly, the team, which had the lowest ticket prices in the NFL in 2009, saw fit to increase ticket prices for the 2010 season by $10 a game for season ticket holders along the sidelines in the lower bowl of Ralph Wilson Stadium, and the team's average ticket price will go up to $59 from $51

 

Finally, most Sabres fans (who weren't struggling to make a losing point) would agree that the team hasn't just snuck into the playoffs in the Golisano years. or that they played like they didn't belong there.

[Doc]

I'll admit my "more than Ralph has made" was hyperbole. You claimed that your point was beyond debate. What are your thoughts now? And TG didn't become a billionaire overnight, just like Ralph wasn't quite pulling in 20-40 mil a year until the past decade. His 1.3 billion is likely "tied-into" Paychex stock, which he can't exactly liquidate quickly.

 

 

Yes, TG is Chairman of the board. So what? As such, he makes no decisions about the day to day operation of the company. He meets with the rest of the board periodically to review the performance of the company's executives and the company itself, on behalf of the shareholders. So, you've answered your own silly question "does TG come up from Fla to check on his company".

 

Now you can answer whether you believe that Ralph, as owner and President, doesn't have the final say in the management of his team--that "CEO Russ Brandon" is in charge, and that's why Ralph doesn't have to be around? That Ralph is in control of his business seems "not even debatable", doesn't it?

 

And re: Ralph has "kept" ticket prices low as a "favor" to the fans--it's the market that keeps these ticket prices low, doc. And there is not much market for a perennially losing and serially mismanaged team. See the the 20% drop in season ticket sales last year. And even though they may be the lowest prices in the league, it's by a negligible amount--and they are hardly a value.

 

From Forbes 2009:

 

Finally, most Sabres fans (who weren't struggling to make a losing point) would agree that the team hasn't just snuck into the playoffs in the Golisano years. or that they played like they didn't belong there.

Yes, Golisano's wealth is tied into his Paychex stock. But to raise $1M, all he needs to do is sell just 40K shares, which is a drop in the bucket and doesn't change anything WRT ownership.

 

While Ralph may have ultimate say, he doesn't scout players, pick players, or negotiate contracts or any other practical stuff. He signs-off on things and provides a spending target, but that's about it. He basically does what Golisano does, i.e. let his underlings run things.

 

And yes, ticket prices are low because that's what the market can bear. He could have raised them and said "see, no one can afford my prices, I'm moving," and then moved.

 

Lowest is lowest and they ARE a value, considering it's the NFL and what other fans pay. And ST holders can recoup their ST money by selling a couple games to opposing fans.

[Mr. WEO]

Yes, Golisano's wealth is tied into his Paychex stock. But to raise $1M, all he needs to do is sell just 40K shares, which is a drop in the bucket and doesn't change anything WRT ownership.

 

While Ralph may have ultimate say, he doesn't scout players, pick players, or negotiate contracts or any other practical stuff. He signs-off on things and provides a spending target, but that's about it. He basically does what Golisano does, i.e. let his underlings run things.

 

And yes, ticket prices are low because that's what the market can bear. He could have raised them and said "see, no one can afford my prices, I'm moving," and then moved.

 

Lowest is lowest and they ARE a value, considering it's the NFL and what other fans pay. And ST holders can recoup their ST money by selling a couple games to opposing fans.

Ralph doesn't have to sell anything to "raise $1M". He just has to fill out a withdrawal slip.

 

Golisano doesn't do any of the things you mention--he can't becasue he is the chairman of the board, not the CEO or President. HE has no "underlings". How can you not get this? By the way, Ralph famously scouted your boy RJ...

 

ST holders can recoup their ST money by selling a couple games to opposing fans.

 

Nice!

 

Yes, as I said, the ticket prices are what the marrket will bear--not as a "favor", as you just claimed.

 

And, yes, Ralph could simply move the team any time he wants....

[JohnC]

It is still weird, and is still incompetent....just different people running the show.

 

 

Both Nix and Gailey appear to be very well liked by fans ATM, but it just might be that anyone would look to be an improvement over Dick Jauron. From my view both Nix and Gailey are no better then Jauron or Levy, perhaps worse...only not many see it yet.

 

I have no idea why Perry Fewell wasn't retained as HC, perhaps to be finally rid of the infamous Tampa 2 defense. Yet the new 3-4 was a disaster and even worse then any Jauron defense against the run.

 

I can only hope that when the team flounders again this season that everyone doesn't blame the lockout, like last year was supposed to be a wash because this new staff had to evaluate the players.

 

 

Anyway, Golisnao would be a huge upgrade over Wilson...then again any new owner that wants to win would be an upgrade over Wilson.

 

You and I are in accord on how the mercurial owner has whimsically run this franchise. The results are reflected in its losing historical record. I'm still surprised at how many people believe that this crotchety owner has had little responsbility for this travesty.

 

Where I disagree with you is your assertion that the Nix/Whaley/Gailey regime is a continuation of the prior regimes. It's not. If you look at what has been happening since the installation of Nix as the GM you will see a systematic cleansing of the old guard. John Guy and Tom Modrak are gone. Whaley was hired from the Steelers (a model organization) and is basically the number two person in the organization. Getting someone outside the Bills orbit (crony system) is a positive act itself. Another positive development that doesn't get much publicity is that Nix has steadily bulked up the scouting department. That is going to be the foundation for the eventual turnaround.

 

In my view, as is yours, the Bills record this year is not going to be impressive. It probably will be in the range of 5-7 wins. But what will be happening is the roster will continue to be turned over from the Jauron/Levy small and quick roster to a bigger and stronger roster. There is no quick fix. When Nix took over the Bills were basically an expansion caliber team. It is going to take at least another two or three drafts and some prudent personnel decisions before this team gets to be a serious team.

 

The way to judge the success of this team this year is not through its record. If the younger players (especially last year's draftees) are developing then the Nix approach is working. If not, then the franchise is in trouble. When Nix took over he stated that the right approach to take is to draft well, develop your players and then keep them. I agree with that basic strategy. Now it is all about the execution of that strategy.

Edited July 24, 2011 by JohnC

[Doc]

Ralph doesn't have to sell anything to "raise $1M". He just has to fill out a withdrawal slip.

 

Golisano doesn't do any of the things you mention--he can't becasue he is the chairman of the board, not the CEO or President. HE has no "underlings". How can you not get this? By the way, Ralph famously scouted your boy RJ...

Golisano can't just fill out a withdrawal slip? Remember, he's donated more than Ralph has ever made.

 

And even if it were true that Ralph scouted RJ (that myth was debunked awhile ago), that was over a decade ago. You know, when Golisano was running the show at Paychex. Your point?

 

Nice!

 

Yes, as I said, the ticket prices are what the marrket will bear--not as a "favor", as you just claimed.

 

And, yes, Ralph could simply move the team any time he wants....

Ask fans that do it and they'll tell you is IS nice that they can recoup their entire ST price by selling a couple games. It's the reason you see more opposing teams' fans at some games. Then they can watch the games from the comfort of their family rooms.

 

And haven't you been saying for awhile that Ralph could easily charge more for tix than he does instead of demanding charity from the other owners? Now you're saying he's charging "what the market will bear?" If anything, you're more unfavorable to fans than Ralph is, saying the fans should pay more and to leave the other owners alone.

 

As I've said before, the time to move the team has passed. What he could do is sell the team to the group that wants to move the team to LA. He would make a couple hundred million more doing that than from selling/having it sold after his death to a group that wants to keep the team in Buffalo.

[Mr. WEO]

Golisano can't just fill out a withdrawal slip? Remember, he's donated more than Ralph has ever made.

 

And even if it were true that Ralph scouted RJ (that myth was debunked awhile ago), that was over a decade ago. You know, when Golisano was running the show at Paychex. Your point?

 

 

Ask fans that do it and they'll tell you is IS nice that they can recoup their entire ST price by selling a couple games. It's the reason you see more opposing teams' fans at some games. Then they can watch the games from the comfort of their family rooms.

 

And haven't you been saying for awhile that Ralph could easily charge more for tix than he does instead of demanding charity from the other owners? Now you're saying he's charging "what the market will bear?" If anything, you're more unfavorable to fans than Ralph is, saying the fans should pay more and to leave the other owners alone.

 

As I've said before, the time to move the team has passed. What he could do is sell the team to the group that wants to move the team to LA. He would make a couple hundred million more doing that than from selling/having it sold after his death to a group that wants to keep the team in Buffalo.

My point?

 

You said it "wasn't even debatable" that TG spent more on his campaign than philanthropy--you were off by over 50 million.

 

You asked if TG comes up fro FL to check up on how his company is run--even though he hadn't been President or CEO for 7 years--and when he does come up only to preside over board meetings when they are scheduled. You said RW hired others to run the business for him and then conceded he makes final decisions on all major calls.

 

You said that RW kept tix prices low as a favor to Bills fans, then you conceded that the market determines ticket prices.

 

I did say he could charge more (especially if he found a HC/GM who could win games)--before the 2009 season, when season tickets reached a peak 55,000. However, in the face of 11,000 fewer tickets being sold in 2010, he did the fans a favor of raising prices 20%.

 

By the way, season tickets are currently trading for as low as 28-38 bucks on stubhub for the last 3 home games.

 

As has been pointed out to you, all NFL teams that moved did so only because the cities they were in (and were willing to stay in) wouldn't build (or refurbish) stadiums for them. Ralph made the same demand as they did and he got a new stadium and then got it refurbished years later. Also, his stay in Buffalo has been wildly profitable, no reason to believe he would have made more in Indy or Balt--especially with his managerial ineptitude. So to continue to say he "could have moved the team any time" makes no sense whatsoever.

[Doc]

My point?

 

You said it "wasn't even debatable" that TG spent more on his campaign than philanthropy--you were off by over 50 million.

 

You asked if TG comes up fro FL to check up on how his company is run--even though he hadn't been President or CEO for 7 years--and when he does come up only to preside over board meetings when they are scheduled. You said RW hired others to run the business for him and then conceded he makes final decisions on all major calls.

 

You said that RW kept tix prices low as a favor to Bills fans, then you conceded that the market determines ticket prices.

 

I did say he could charge more (especially if he found a HC/GM who could win games)--before the 2009 season, when season tickets reached a peak 55,000. However, in the face of 11,000 fewer tickets being sold in 2010, he did the fans a favor of raising prices 20%.

 

By the way, season tickets are currently trading for as low as 28-38 bucks on stubhub for the last 3 home games.

 

As has been pointed out to you, all NFL teams that moved did so only because the cities they were in (and were willing to stay in) wouldn't build (or refurbish) stadiums for them. Ralph made the same demand as they did and he got a new stadium and then got it refurbished years later. Also, his stay in Buffalo has been wildly profitable, no reason to believe he would have made more in Indy or Balt--especially with his managerial ineptitude. So to continue to say he "could have moved the team any time" makes no sense whatsoever.

I only conceded the charity versus campaign money thing, not that giving $145M to charity makes spending $93M to stroke his ego any better. Ralph's "final say" is likely little more than him saying "yes" to everything at "board meetings" over the phone. Again he doesn't do any of the practical day-to-day stuff.

 

As for the ticket prices, the market can bear lower prices easily. And I've said all along that the market could bear $10 more per ticket. But getting to average ticket price is out of the question.

 

The last team to move/be added to the league was Houston (awarded in 1999) and sites for a new franchise were being chosen prior to the renovation of the Ralph in 1998. Ralph could have moved any time before then and now could sell the team for a hefty premium to the group looking to move a team to LA.

 

Again doc, if you think that Golisano is some white knight just because the Sabres did well despite installing Larry Quinn as managing partner and his efforts to keep costs down by not spending anywhere near to the cap and cutting all of the scouts, you're fooling yourself. Again he's little different from Ralph.

[Mr. WEO]

I only conceded the charity versus campaign money thing, not that giving $145M to charity makes spending $93M to stroke his ego any better. Ralph's "final say" is likely little more than him saying "yes" to everything at "board meetings" over the phone. Again he doesn't do any of the practical day-to-day stuff.

TG last ran for gov almost 10 years ago. Since then, the bulk of his giving has occrued. Look, you're not going to make any points knocking TG for his giving no matter how much he spent on his campaigns. It's a strange argument anyway.

 

As for the ticket prices, the market can bear lower prices easily. And I've said all along that the market could bear $10 more per ticket. But getting to average ticket price is out of the question.

 

Yes, the market can always bear lower prices! hahaha--thanks for pointing that out for us. Not sure why it's important to get to the average ticket price, but if the Bills were a perennial contender, it's likely they could do that.

 

 

The last team to move/be added to the league was Houston (awarded in 1999) and sites for a new franchise were being chosen prior to the renovation of the Ralph in 1998. Ralph could have moved any time before then and now could sell the team for a hefty premium to the group looking to move a team to LA.

Classic doc obfuscation. The awarding of an expansion franchise to Houston. The other "sites" were competing for a new franchise. Absolutely no one was mentioning moving an existing team to any of these places. You go on and on about how Ralph could have moved to Indy, Cleveland, Baltimore, etc, as though he could have simply stepped into the deals that those other owners created themselves with those towns. Exactly when would RW moved? Righ after his new stadium was built?

 

Let's see...

 

Rich Stadium opens in '73 and Colts move in '84. In '84, Erie County adds 16 executive suites. That rules Indy out.

 

Baltimore in '96? Nashvillle in 97? Houston in '99? In '92, 24 more suites added. In'94, Red Zone and Goal Line suites added, as were 14 new luxury suites and the nation's largest Jumbotron. In '98 the County agrees to pour in another $63 million into the place.

 

So, as you can see--there was never a reason to move the team for traditional reasons (why everyone else moved). As so many here have pointed out, Ralph has made plenty of money here. There is no reason to believe he could have extracted so much profit from another fan base for such a poor product. Your argument makes no sense--as does your "LA premium" for the sale of the team. The team is not worth more on the possibility that it might move to LA.

 

Again doc, if you think that Golisano is some white knight just because the Sabres did well despite installing Larry Quinn as managing partner and his efforts to keep costs down by not spending anywhere near to the cap and cutting all of the scouts, you're fooling yourself. Again he's little different from Ralph.

Actually, in the popular meaning of the term, Golisano was a "white knight"--who stepped in and bought the Sabres. And looks like "doc's luck argument" is making its way into yet another discussion. TG was simply "lucky" that the Sabres did well, despite him making all the wrong moves! Very convincing stuff.

[JohnC]

Again doc, if you think that Golisano is some white knight just because the Sabres did well despite installing Larry Quinn as managing partner and his efforts to keep costs down by not spending anywhere near to the cap and cutting all of the scouts, you're fooling yourself. Again he's little different from Ralph.

 

You are being absurd when you make the claim that there is little difference in the type of ownership between Tom G and Ralph W. Under TG's stewardship the Sabres were a professionally run operation where the hockey people ran the hockey operation with little interference by the owner. The results are very obvious. The team was competitive and entertaining with repeated participation in the playoffs.

 

The Bills have been a mess for a generation. The football side of the operation has been embarrassingly inept and it is demonstrated by the theam's futility on the field. In a system designed for parity the Bills have not been in the playoffs for 11 consecutive years, and this year it will be 12 barren years.

 

There is no doubt that Wilson has interjected himself in the decision-making, especially on the hiring side. That is his perogative. The results from his involvement have been disasterous.

 

When you make the claim that there would be little difference in a Tom G vs Ralph W you are basing it on what? Golisano has a record of ownership as do Ralph. The results are starkly different. How you come to your conclusion is mystifying?

[Doc]

TG last ran for gov almost 10 years ago. Since then, the bulk of his giving has occrued. Look, you're not going to make any points knocking TG for his giving no matter how much he spent on his campaigns. It's a strange argument anyway.

The context was that Golisano is now a philanthropist, to which I made the joke that yes he was good at giving away his money during his failed campaigns. With the subtext being that Ralph doesn't donate to charity, which is hogwash. Or that he doesn't donate enough, despite Golisano having a lot more liquid funds than Ralph. Not that donating to charity isn't a tax move, like his move to Florida was.

Yes, the market can always bear lower prices! hahaha--thanks for pointing that out for us. Not sure why it's important to get to the average ticket price, but if the Bills were a perennial contender, it's likely they could do that.

It's NOT important to get to average ticket prices for Ralph. Or even above the minimum ticket prices. As for "if the Bills were a perennial contender," does the worst team in the league make their ticket prices the lowest in the league?

 

Classic doc obfuscation. The awarding of an expansion franchise to Houston. The other "sites" were competing for a new franchise. Absolutely no one was mentioning moving an existing team to any of these places. You go on and on about how Ralph could have moved to Indy, Cleveland, Baltimore, etc, as though he could have simply stepped into the deals that those other owners created themselves with those towns. Exactly when would RW moved? Righ after his new stadium was built?

 

Let's see...

 

Rich Stadium opens in '73 and Colts move in '84. In '84, Erie County adds 16 executive suites. That rules Indy out.

 

Baltimore in '96? Nashvillle in 97? Houston in '99? In '92, 24 more suites added. In'94, Red Zone and Goal Line suites added, as were 14 new luxury suites and the nation's largest Jumbotron. In '98 the County agrees to pour in another $63 million into the place.

 

So, as you can see--there was never a reason to move the team for traditional reasons (why everyone else moved). As so many here have pointed out, Ralph has made plenty of money here. There is no reason to believe he could have extracted so much profit from another fan base for such a poor product. Your argument makes no sense--as does your "LA premium" for the sale of the team. The team is not worth more on the possibility that it might move to LA.

If there was a better deal out there (and there were, many, despite your claims that Buffalo is some sort of boomtown) and Ralph really wanted to take it, why would he care that the stadium was built in 1973? He doesn't give a **** about anyone else, and is all about himself and the money, right?

 

Actually, in the popular meaning of the term, Golisano was a "white knight"--who stepped in and bought the Sabres. And looks like "doc's luck argument" is making its way into yet another discussion. TG was simply "lucky" that the Sabres did well, despite him making all the wrong moves! Very convincing stuff.

The Sabres are small potatoes compared to the NFL. And yes it was mostly luck, considering the moves he made, yet the team still did well.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Doc

[Mr. WEO]

The context was that Golisano is now a philanthropist, to which I made the joke that yes he was good at giving away his money during his failed campaigns. With the subtext being that Ralph doesn't donate to charity, which is hogwash. Or that he doesn't donate enough, despite Golisano having a lot more liquid funds than Ralph. Not that donating to charity isn't a tax move, like his move to Florida was.

 

 

You've reached bottom. You've exhausted yourself with that limp jab.

 

 

It's NOT important to get to average ticket prices for Ralph. Or even above the minimum ticket prices. As for "if the Bills were a perennial contender," does the worst team in the league make their ticket prices the lowest in the league?

 

No, of course not. Why even ask? The point is that Ralph could get much more if he fielded a competitive team. That is "not debatable".

 

 

 

If there was a better deal out there (and there were, many, despite your claims that Buffalo is some sort of boomtown) and Ralph really wanted to take it, why would he care that the stadium was built in 1973? He doesn't give a **** about anyone else, and is all about himself and the money, right?

Any owner could move at any time, by your logic--so what? Everyone else moved because of stadium issues, which Ralph didn't have. Exactly when would Ralph have moved? And why? You've never been able to articluate your reasons. What better deal was out there for him to take. What deals was he working on? Be specific for once on this topic.

 

I've never claimed he doesn't give a **** about anyone else. But I do think he is about the money--it's all he publicly talks about (oh, wait-he did talk about the team last year to inform us that we shouldn't expect much from the Bills for another 3 years). He has STAYED in Buffalo (well, not physically of course) becuase he was able to make so much money! Why can't youget this? Almost everyone else does. In what other town would he be pulling in more profit?

 

 

The Sabres are small potatoes compared to the NFL. And yes it was mostly luck, considering the moves he made, yet the team still did well.

 

I just wanted you to repeat this. Thank you. Luck is so funny--it pops up just when you need it to make a point.

[Doc]

You've reached bottom. You've exhausted yourself with that limp jab.

Checkout the knockout punch that followed that "weak jab." I shook my head when I read he moved to Florida for tax purposes. If that was Ralph, you'd have been all over him (you get on his case for living in Michigan). But consistency has NEVER been your strong suit, has it?

No, of course not. Why even ask? The point is that Ralph could get much more if he fielded a competitive team. That is "not debatable".

You mean, like the Jags? Because fielding a competitive team (as if that's as easy as you make it sound), is all that one needs.

Any owner could move at any time, by your logic--so what? Everyone else moved because of stadium issues, which Ralph didn't have. Exactly when would Ralph have moved? And why? You've never been able to articluate your reasons. What better deal was out there for him to take. What deals was he working on? Be specific for once on this topic.

I said Ralph could have moved anytime a team moved or an expansion team was awarded. John Wawrow has corroborated this.

I've never claimed he doesn't give a **** about anyone else. But I do think he is about the money--it's all he publicly talks about (oh, wait-he did talk about the team last year to inform us that we shouldn't expect much from the Bills for another 3 years). He has STAYED in Buffalo (well, not physically of course) becuase he was able to make so much money! Why can't youget this? Almost everyone else does. In what other town would he be pulling in more profit?

He could have made more money in EVERY OTHER TOWN. Buffalo's economy sucks, yet he's made money. Why can't you get this? Oh wait, I know.

I just wanted you to repeat this. Thank you. Luck is so funny--it pops up just when you need it to make a point.

Look doc, it is what it is. Installing Larry Quinn as managing partner, not spending close to the salary cap, and firing all the scouts are bad/cheap move you'd criticize Ralph for making. Yet you don't because the Sabres fortunately did well in a league because they had a good coach already on-board and it's much easier to make the playoffs. The point I was making is that as an NFL owner, he likely wouldn't fare any better than Ralph. But at least he'd keep the team in Buffalo.

[voodoo poonani]

I'd much rather have Pegula than Golisano own the Bills. Golisano had his shot with the Sabres, but was always pinching pennies and holding the FO back. Pegula would let football people run the show. Plus, Pegula is worth about three times as much as Golisano, so he should have an easier time acquiring the Bills for the price it'll take to keep them in Buffalo.

 

Here's hoping Terry is a football fan too!

[Mr. WEO]

Checkout the knockout punch that followed that "weak jab." I shook my head when I read he moved to Florida for tax purposes. If that was Ralph, you'd have been all over him (you get on his case for living in Michigan). But consistency has NEVER been your strong suit, has it?

 

You mean, like the Jags? Because fielding a competitive team (as if that's as easy as you make it sound), is all that one needs.

 

"Knockout punch"?? Look at you! hahaha--"knockout punch". Anyway--Ralph was told he could have a franchise in Buffalo, so he took Buffalo. TG Was raised in Rochester, went to school there and started a billion dollar company there that is one of the region's largest employers. He cared enough about NY (and upstate in particular) that he wasted a large amount of his personal fortune (3 times) trying to become its governor. Finally, ater years of donating millions more in income and property taxes, he moved to a state that would stop stealing from him. Again, there is no comparison in this regard between RW and TG. Every "jab" you come up with undermines your argument.

 

 

I said Ralph could have moved anytime a team moved or an expansion team was awarded. John Wawrow has corroborated this.

 

So the NFL was giving Ralph right of first refusal on every expansion city? Let's see you back that up.

 

 

He could have made more money in EVERY OTHER TOWN. Buffalo's economy sucks, yet he's made money. Why can't you get this? Oh wait, I know.

Because you say so? I'm gonna need something real--not your imaginary and rudamentary guesses. Come on!

 

Look doc, it is what it is. Installing Larry Quinn as managing partner, not spending close to the salary cap, and firing all the scouts are bad/cheap move you'd criticize Ralph for making. Yet you don't because the Sabres fortunately did well in a league because they had a good coach already on-board and it's much easier to make the playoffs. The point I was making is that as an NFL owner, he likely wouldn't fare any better than Ralph. But at least he'd keep the team in Buffalo.

You can't argue with success, doc. Therefore if Ralph made these same moves and yet the Bills made the playoffs in 4 of the past 6 years I wouldn't have much to complain about (I'd probably find something of course!). It is what it is.