Here's to hoping that fans no longer root for the team to lose

[David D]

I'm not disagreeing with you , but it's simpler for me, to root for the Bills is like rooting for my own kid at a local game: It's "in me" / core to who I am to root for the Bills every time I see my team take center stage. To me, they represent my heritage, my country, they are my team. The Ralph is my Mecca (no offense intended), their uniform is mine. I relish each victory, I groan with each loss. When we lose, I look for a silver lining -- maybe our players or team developed in some areas, or maybe we just get a better draft pick for next year...but I look for the things to build on. Then I look forward to next week's game and repeat the process till my little life runs it's course. It's that simple folks. GO BILLS!!!!!!!

 

 

Dude that's me. Since the early 70's, I get ready to see my home town team, my heritage, and my beloved Buffalo Bills every Sunday during football season win, loss or embarrass.

[Clippers of Nfl]

P WIllis is a top 3 MLB in the league and ahs been since his first OTA

 

His point is imagine the Colts without Manning. Their fans endured some bad seasons, drafted Manning, and have had 10+ wins a year since. 1 very bad year and 10 great ones is better than 1 bad year and 10 more bad years

i understand the "reasoning" behind getting the #1 pick. u didnt have to explain it.

i also understand that the bills draft classes havent always been something to brag about. i would hate for them to pick a number one BUST. and as a bills fan, that would not surprise me. i guess because i have lost faith, i just want to win anything. its sad really if you think about it.

[Austin_Bills_Fan]

That's ridiculous. How many players were there in the 1985 draft that would have been as good as Bruce Smith? Could a Bruce Smith be there at 32? Hell no! Same goes for Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman, John Elway and all the other HOFers drafted with the 1st pick.

Now we might not get the 1st pick, but look at the last decade where we were a pick, or a few picks away from getting the player we wanted & ended up settling for garbage. Remember when Patrick Willis went one pick before the Bills picked, so we picked Marshawn Lynch instead. While Willis is a force, we dumped Marshawn for a mid & late round pick. What about the year we missed out on Roethlisberger by a few picks, tried to trade up & failed, but succeeded in trading up for JP instead?

I know you don't like to hear this, but really, in a totally wasted year like this one where we're likely to win 1-4 games, what difference does the 3 extra wins make if in the long run we miss out on a franchising changing player by a pick or 3? When you're bad you need to be really bad, not just somewhat bad. Now I don't start a season looking for the team to lose, but when we get to loss 10 or 11, I see absolutely no benefit in winning. Obviously the players have a totally different point of view, and I don't blame them, but as a ticket buying fan, I'd rather lose a couple of more games this year, than never see another championship contender. I want to see a winner, not of 3,4,or 5 games. I want to see 10,11,12 wins, the number a team with some impact players gets, not a team with no impact players like the 2010 Bills.

Also, don't try to convince me the difference between 1 and 4 wins will help the players learn how to win. Most of those guys won't be here if we get good. Guys like Talley, Smith, Reed, Ritcher etal all went through 1 or 2, 2 win seasons, and it didn't stop them from learning how to win when other impact players arrived.

 

Come on man. You know as well as I do that there are just as many HOF players who went late in the draft (Tom Brady for example). Its more important to stock pile draft picks like the the perennial good teams do. For every first pick success there are 3 Ryan Leafs.

[Thoner7]

Come on man. You know as well as I do that there are just as many HOF players who went late in the draft (Tom Brady for example). Its more important to stock pile draft picks like the the perennial good teams do. For every first pick success there are 3 Ryan Leafs.

 

Actually, the key to the draft is selecting good players with your picks, regardless of what picks you have - thats what good teams do.

 

That said, what makes you think the Bills will select a great player if they draft between say, 9-11? I'll help you out, they wont.

 

We as fans need to hope that the Bills top pick is as COMPLETELY IDIOT PROOF AS POSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

What better way than to pick #1 overall and hope Luck declares?

[Orton's Arm]

That's ridiculous. How many players were there in the 1985 draft that would have been as good as Bruce Smith? Could a Bruce Smith be there at 32? Hell no! Same goes for Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman, John Elway and all the other HOFers drafted with the 1st pick.

Now we might not get the 1st pick, but look at the last decade where we were a pick, or a few picks away from getting the player we wanted & ended up settling for garbage. Remember when Patrick Willis went one pick before the Bills picked, so we picked Marshawn Lynch instead. While Willis is a force, we dumped Marshawn for a mid & late round pick. What about the year we missed out on Roethlisberger by a few picks, tried to trade up & failed, but succeeded in trading up for JP instead?

I know you don't like to hear this, but really, in a totally wasted year like this one where we're likely to win 1-4 games, what difference does the 3 extra wins make if in the long run we miss out on a franchising changing player by a pick or 3? When you're bad you need to be really bad, not just somewhat bad. Now I don't start a season looking for the team to lose, but when we get to loss 10 or 11, I see absolutely no benefit in winning. Obviously the players have a totally different point of view, and I don't blame them, but as a ticket buying fan, I'd rather lose a couple of more games this year, than never see another championship contender. I want to see a winner, not of 3,4,or 5 games. I want to see 10,11,12 wins, the number a team with some impact players gets, not a team with no impact players like the 2010 Bills.

Also, don't try to convince me the difference between 1 and 4 wins will help the players learn how to win. Most of those guys won't be here if we get good. Guys like Talley, Smith, Reed, Ritcher etal all went through 1 or 2, 2 win seasons, and it didn't stop them from learning how to win when other impact players arrived.

This.

[1B4IDie]

That's ridiculous. How many players were there in the 1985 draft that would have been as good as Bruce Smith? Could a Bruce Smith be there at 32? Hell no! Same goes for Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman, John Elway and all the other HOFers drafted with the 1st pick.

Now we might not get the 1st pick, but look at the last decade where we were a pick, or a few picks away from getting the player we wanted & ended up settling for garbage. Remember when Patrick Willis went one pick before the Bills picked, so we picked Marshawn Lynch instead. While Willis is a force, we dumped Marshawn for a mid & late round pick. What about the year we missed out on Roethlisberger by a few picks, tried to trade up & failed, but succeeded in trading up for JP instead?

I know you don't like to hear this, but really, in a totally wasted year like this one where we're likely to win 1-4 games, what difference does the 3 extra wins make if in the long run we miss out on a franchising changing player by a pick or 3? When you're bad you need to be really bad, not just somewhat bad. Now I don't start a season looking for the team to lose, but when we get to loss 10 or 11, I see absolutely no benefit in winning. Obviously the players have a totally different point of view, and I don't blame them, but as a ticket buying fan, I'd rather lose a couple of more games this year, than never see another championship contender. I want to see a winner, not of 3,4,or 5 games. I want to see 10,11,12 wins, the number a team with some impact players gets, not a team with no impact players like the 2010 Bills.

Also, don't try to convince me the difference between 1 and 4 wins will help the players learn how to win. Most of those guys won't be here if we get good. Guys like Talley, Smith, Reed, Ritcher etal all went through 1 or 2, 2 win seasons, and it didn't stop them from learning how to win when other impact players arrived.

 

 

This.

 

Thats all well and good in theoretical land where you can assign draft weight to each draft position and having a very highly weighted draft pick position means you're positioned for a great draft.

 

But in reality its November 2010 the College Football Season is almost over. Who specifically is your Bruce Smith?

 

Specifically what player are you going to put men in harms way on a NFL field and purposely lose games to draft?

 

Who is specifically worth this contrived, small minded strategy that doesn't see the forest for the trees?

 

If you're going to suggest that the Bills go 1-15 in 2010 to get a higher pick you better be able to specify who they should draft, otherwise go back to playing Madden.

[Clippers of Nfl]

Actually, the key to the draft is selecting good players with your picks, regardless of what picks you have - thats what good teams do.

 

That said, what makes you think the Bills will select a great player if they draft between say, 9-11? I'll help you out, they wont.

 

We as fans need to hope that the Bills top pick is as COMPLETELY IDIOT PROOF AS POSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

What better way than to pick #1 overall and hope Luck declares?

I can see this kind of logic. very very valid point.

[truth on hold]

rooting for your team to win and hurting its draft position when its already out of the playoffs is idiotic

[Orton's Arm]

Thats all well and good in theoretical land where you can assign draft weight to each draft position and having a very highly weighted draft pick position means you're positioned for a great draft.

 

But in reality its November 2010 the College Football Season is almost over. Who specifically is your Bruce Smith?

 

Specifically what player are you going to put men in harms way on a NFL field and purposely lose games to draft?

 

Who is specifically worth this contrived, small minded strategy that doesn't see the forest for the trees?

 

If you're going to suggest that the Bills go 1-15 in 2010 to get a higher pick you better be able to specify who they should draft, otherwise go back to playing Madden.

With a little Luck, there will be an elite player available when the Bills pick. But not every year is a Bruce Smith year. Some years are Mario Williams years.

 

Mario Williams is a very solid player at one of the four hardest-to-fill positions (QB, RDE, LT, and CB). Meanwhile, the Bills have often been in the 8 - 12 range, and have contented themselves with players like Donte Whitner, Aaron Maybin, and Marshawn Lynch. At this point, the main effect that winning more games would have is to push the Bills out of that portion of the draft where the most coveted, best players are generally found. Instead of getting a very solid player at a premium position--such as a Mario Williams--they could be forced to compromise somewhere. Maybe the guy plays a less premium position (think Spiller and Wood), maybe he's less talented than the best available (think Losman and McCargo), or maybe he's a mediocre player at a non-premium position (Donte Whitner). Year after year the Bills continue to use their first round picks to add guys like that to the team. Year after year, they remain mired in mediocrity. At some point, that mediocrity has to change. You change it by adding one elite player at a time. The Bills are a lot more likely to get an elite player at a premium position if they pick in the top-3 than if they pick in the 10 - 15 range.

[BigRedMarauder6]

P WIllis is a top 3 MLB in the league and ahs been since his first OTA

 

His point is imagine the Colts without Manning. Their fans endured some bad seasons, drafted Manning, and have had 10+ wins a year since. 1 very bad year and 10 great ones is better than 1 bad year and 10 more bad years

 

 

 

8-8 baby!!!!!! How about some serious mojo heading into 2011? I'd rather have that than a 21 year old QB...

[1B4IDie]

With a little Luck, there will be an elite player available when the Bills pick. But not every year is a Bruce Smith year. Some years are Mario Williams years.

 

Mario Williams is a very solid player at one of the four hardest-to-fill positions (QB, RDE, LT, and CB). Meanwhile, the Bills have often been in the 8 - 12 range, and have contented themselves with players like Donte Whitner, Aaron Maybin, and Marshawn Lynch. At this point, the main effect that winning more games would have is to push the Bills out of that portion of the draft where the most coveted, best players are generally found. Instead of getting a very solid player at a premium position--such as a Mario Williams--they could be forced to compromise somewhere. Maybe the guy plays a less premium position (think Spiller and Wood), maybe he's less talented than the best available (think Losman and McCargo), or maybe he's a mediocre player at a non-premium position (Donte Whitner). Year after year the Bills continue to use their first round picks to add guys like that to the team. Year after year, they remain mired in mediocrity. At some point, that mediocrity has to change. You change it by adding one elite player at a time. The Bills are a lot more likely to get an elite player at a premium position if they pick in the top-3 than if they pick in the 10 - 15 range.

This is all anecdotal hoping and wishing. "There will be an elite player, or semi elite player or moderate elite player."

 

It's not too early to identify who specifically you want to draft that requires the Bills to lose inorder to draft? Most College teams have 3 games left in their carreer. Have you not identified your Mario Williams yet?

 

Haloti Ngada wasn't drafted top 3, the aforementioned Patrick Willis wasn't drafted top 3. Brian Orakpo wasn't taken in the top 3.

 

If you look at player performance overtime as related to draft position you will not find any consistency between where a player was drafted in the Top 20 and their NFL success rate. Go ahead find 1 study that shows Top 10 picks translate to the NFL better than Top 20 picks, or Top5 picks translate better than Top 10 picks. You won't find one because it doesn't exist.

 

A Top 20 player's translation to the NFL has more to do with coaching, organizational opportunity, and personal individual determination than whether they were picked #7 or #2.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Levitre + Wang = Wood

[GOBILLS78]

They're 1-8. Negativity is justified.

[Matt in KC]

This is all anecdotal hoping and wishing. "There will be an elite player, or semi elite player or moderate elite player."

 

It's not too early to identify who specifically you want to draft that requires the Bills to lose inorder to draft? Most College teams have 3 games left in their carreer. Have you not identified your Mario Williams yet?

 

Haloti Ngada wasn't drafted top 3, the aforementioned Patrick Willis wasn't drafted top 3. Brian Orakpo wasn't taken in the top 3.

 

If you look at player performance overtime as related to draft position you will not find any consistency between where a player was drafted in the Top 20 and their NFL success rate. Go ahead find 1 study that shows Top 10 picks translate to the NFL better than Top 20 picks, or Top5 picks translate better than Top 10 picks. You won't find one because it doesn't exist. A Top 20 player's translation to the NFL has more to do with coaching, organizational opportunity, and personal individual determination than whether they were picked #7 or #2.

Check out this link of Pro Football Hall of Famers by Draft Round. The first think that's clear on this page is that yes, how early (round) you're chosen definitely correlates with likelihood getting into the NFL HoF.

 

Looking at the draft classes 1950 and later, there were 19 players chosen 10-19 that were inducted into the Hall of Fame. At the same time, there were 47 inductees who were drafted in the top 10. Heck, 10 of them were chosen first overall. Another tidbit, highlighting that Brady is an anomoly: there are zero players drafted after the third round since 1976 who are in the Hall of Fame.

 

I don't want the Bills to lose. But, to say draft position doesn't matter in just not factually correct. At the same time, I agree there are more important things than draft position. I want to see the Bills playing respectably each week, and to be improving. If they played well and lost to teams playing lights-out, or due to bad luck, and in the process helped our draft position, that would be fine.

[Thoner7]

Thats all well and good in theoretical land where you can assign draft weight to each draft position and having a very highly weighted draft pick position means you're positioned for a great draft.

 

But in reality its November 2010 the College Football Season is almost over. Who specifically is your Bruce Smith?

 

Specifically what player are you going to put men in harms way on a NFL field and purposely lose games to draft?

 

Who is specifically worth this contrived, small minded strategy that doesn't see the forest for the trees?

 

If you're going to suggest that the Bills go 1-15 in 2010 to get a higher pick you better be able to specify who they should draft, otherwise go back to playing Madden.

 

Andrew Luck

 

But really, wanna know why the Bills need to draft 1 or 2... just look at last yeras draft. I remember news breaking post draft that the Bills had Spiller as 3rd on their board (pressumably behind Bradford and Suh) - does anyone else remember hearing tht speculation? I also remember them saying they liked 2 LTs who they thought where worth the pick, but if Spiller was ranked third they still would have taken him over the LTs, not to mention Gerald McCoy and Rolanda McClain and all the other guys we passed over (Bulaga, Iupati, D. Bryant, B Grahm, D Morgan, JPP)...

 

Well, what more do you need? Spiller over multiple stud OL/DL/LBs??? Gimme a break, can we really be that dumb? The answer is YES! We need to idiot proof this draft if we want to get an above average starter - IDIOT PROOF!!!

Edited November 20, 2010 by Thoner7

[section122]

I was talking with coworkers about this topic yesterday and I explained my feelings as this. From the time I wake up on Sunday until the game is over I am convinced the bills will win and root for that to happen. If they lose the sting is not there as I remember it just helps their draft position and I feel that way all week until I wake up Sunday morning.

I never ever root in game for them to lose I just don't mind as much this year when they do when its all said and done. In previous years back to back ot losses would have crushed me (the kc one still did) but not so much this year.

I don't believe chan and buddy are tanking on purpose but I do believe they are evaluating talent this year and not worrying about wins and losses. Seeing who has passion, desire, work ethic, and talent to go forward on this team in order to build a long term winner!

[MRW]

I was talking with coworkers about this topic yesterday and I explained my feelings as this. From the time I wake up on Sunday until the game is over I am convinced the bills will win and root for that to happen. If they lose the sting is not there as I remember it just helps their draft position and I feel that way all week until I wake up Sunday morning.

I never ever root in game for them to lose I just don't mind as much this year when they do when its all said and done. In previous years back to back ot losses would have crushed me (the kc one still did) but not so much this year.

I don't believe chan and buddy are tanking on purpose but I do believe they are evaluating talent this year and not worrying about wins and losses. Seeing who has passion, desire, work ethic, and talent to go forward on this team in order to build a long term winner!

I agree with you. I can appreciate that when all is said and done a higher draft pick will be better for the team but rooting for a loss just doesn't seem right. But yeah, especially now that the team has that first win, losses aren't too hard to tolerate.

[Albany,n.y.]

Thats all well and good in theoretical land where you can assign draft weight to each draft position and having a very highly weighted draft pick position means you're positioned for a great draft.

 

But in reality its November 2010 the College Football Season is almost over. Who specifically is your Bruce Smith?

 

Specifically what player are you going to put men in harms way on a NFL field and purposely lose games to draft?

 

Who is specifically worth this contrived, small minded strategy that doesn't see the forest for the trees?

 

If you're going to suggest that the Bills go 1-15 in 2010 to get a higher pick you better be able to specify who they should draft, otherwise go back to playing Madden.

Obviously if Andrew Luck comes out, he's that #1 pick to build a franchise around. I've never talked about the Bills purposly losing games. What I said is that as a fan who wants to see a winning team, not a team that is under .500 just about every year, I don't see the point of rooting for the team to win meaningless games in November & December if it ends up costing us an impact player. As someone who travels almost 600 miles to every home game I have the right to root for them to get a player who can help turn things around rather than see a meaningless win in December that costs us that player in April. There's a big difference between me not wanting them to win & them actually tanking games. The players will never tank games & I understand that. On the other hand if they lose due to lack of talent, I see nothing wrong with not rooting for them to win.

If you really think about it, the small minded strategy of fans, NOT PLAYERS, is to go to a game and want them to win that meaningless game so they can feel good leaving the stadium, when the team in the long run is better off losing that meaningless game.

I've cited this stat before. If you draft a QB #1, he has a 33% of winning the Super Bowl some time during his career & many of those win multiple Super Bowls. Considering the Bills % of Super Bowl wins is 0%, I'll take that 33% shot.

[billsfreak]

Sorry, but it had to be said. I find it frustrating that some fans don't want the team to win often and win now. Hoping that your team loses out to get a great draft pick seems wrong on so many levels. It smells of a front running Cowboys fan who jumps on the bandwagon when the team is playing well. Since moving to Texas 7 years ago I've been coming to this site often to get my Bills fix but it has really been painful as of late. The negativity this year is just on a whole new level. Fitz is playing great, the Defense is improving, and Coach is doing a damn good job. Why can't we all just root root for the home team???

I try not to tell other people what to do or think, but like I have said several times, no "Real Fan" would ever root for their team to lose for any reason what so ever. Why watch the game if you don't want "your" team to win? A couple spots up in the draft isn't as important as making good picks, which this team hasn't been able to do for the most part for over a decade, including 2010-which is attributed to the fact that Ralph hires the cheapest people available. The Colts and Patriots draft 15-25 spots after us each and every season, but year after year, their drafts are ten times better than ours.

Edited November 20, 2010 by billsfreak

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

P WIllis is a top 3 MLB in the league and ahs been since his first OTA

 

His point is imagine the Colts without Manning. Their fans endured some bad seasons, drafted Manning, and have had 10+ wins a year since. 1 very bad year and 10 great ones is better than 1 bad year and 10 more bad years

 

 

All true, Thoner, but it is also worth noting that the Colts had top draft picks most years between 1990 and 1998... and it did not help them win, by any definition.

[The Senator]

Check out this link of Pro Football Hall of Famers by Draft Round. The first think that's clear on this page is that yes, how early (round) you're chosen definitely correlates with likelihood getting into the NFL HoF.

 

Looking at the draft classes 1950 and later, there were 19 players chosen 10-19 that were inducted into the Hall of Fame. At the same time, there were 47 inductees who were drafted in the top 10. Heck, 10 of them were chosen first overall. Another tidbit, highlighting that Brady is an anomoly: there are zero players drafted after the third round since 1976 who are in the Hall of Fame.

 

I don't want the Bills to lose. But, to say draft position doesn't matter in just not factually correct. At the same time, I agree there are more important things than draft position. I want to see the Bills playing respectably each week, and to be improving. If they played well and lost to teams playing lights-out, or due to bad luck, and in the process helped our draft position, that would be fine.

I'm not sure what that data is supposed to reveal to us. Is there a list of ' Non-Hall of Famers by Draft Round ' ???

 

(I'm certain it would reveal what we all know - there are far more first-round picks that are not HOFers.