jjamie12 Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 (edited) None taken, I guess...can you give some examples of where I'm not being reasonable? I appreciate your opinion, but why not attack my logic and reasoning instead of my character? I don't know, Gene. Maybe becuase you can't even take the blinders off for one second to take a walk down the block and check out the myriad things that religiously affiliated charities/schools/hospitals/soup kitchens/whatever that have provided countless $$ worth of help to countless people over the course of time? You think maybe that's why? Or do we just throw that out because 'There are charities without religious affiliation!'? Edited September 22, 2010 by jjamie12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 I don't know, Gene. Maybe becuase you can't even take the blinders off for one second to take a walk down the block and check out the myriad things that religiously affiliated charities/schools/hospitals/soup kitchens/whatever that have provided countless $ worth of help to countless people over the course of time? You think maybe that's why? Or do we just throw that out because 'There are charities without religious affiliation!'? No, I agree, but that's about the only thing I could think of for "good caused by organized religion". If it weren't for the countless atrocities, wars, abuses and scandals I might sign up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 I don't know, Gene. Maybe becuase you can't even take the blinders off for one second to take a walk down the block and check out the myriad things that religiously affiliated charities/schools/hospitals/soup kitchens/whatever that have provided countless $$ worth of help to countless people over the course of time? You think maybe that's why? Or do we just throw that out because 'There are charities without religious affiliation!'? Yeah, but that's all stuff the government is supposed to provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 I'm not a believer but I do think Religion can have life enhancing effects- belief even in things that are not real can have a powerful effect as placebo studies have shown (example people thinking they were getting super strong performance enhancing drugs gained more strength than control groups), Religion can act as a super behavioral program, but I think that the community gathering at the local church or worship is the greatest benefit, I really wish that atheists and agnostics had a social community analogous to the local church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 I'm not a believer but I do think Religion can have life enhancing effects- belief even in things that are not real can have a powerful effect as placebo studies have shown (example people thinking they were getting super strong performance enhancing drugs gained more strength than control groups), Religion can act as a super behavioral program, but I think that the community gathering at the local church or worship is the greatest benefit, I really wish that atheists and agnostics had a social community analogous to the local church. We should just start an existentialist community. We can discuss our life goals and where we get meaning. We just haven't had life goals and meaning handed to us like religious people believe they have. Everything else could be similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 I'm not a believer but I do think Religion can have life enhancing effects- belief even in things that are not real can have a powerful effect as placebo studies have shown (example people thinking they were getting super strong performance enhancing drugs gained more strength than control groups), Religion can act as a super behavioral program, but I think that the community gathering at the local church or worship is the greatest benefit, I really wish that atheists and agnostics had a social community analogous to the local church. We do, it's called a bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 No, I agree, but that's about the only thing I could think of for "good caused by organized religion". If it weren't for the countless atrocities, wars, abuses and scandals I might sign up. That is a start. Gene, think for a bit. You have people of all stripes telling you that you at best being obstinate. Has organized religion done bad things throughout history? So you want it to simply go away. Well, of course it has, as have governments. Can I then argue from an anarchist's position that we should abandon all government? I presume you will respond something along the lines of, "Well government is needed, whereas religion is not." So let me rebut that one here and you can proceed from there, obviously there is a need for religion as it has been around as long as governments have. Clearly, many of mankind has a need for both. I am still waiting on my overwhelming evidence by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 I am still waiting on my overwhelming evidence by the way. He's already backpedalled on that one: No, I would have to modify the 911 Truther statement to fit religious folks. Something like: It's just their steadfast belief despite a complete lack of evidence that is quite stupid IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 (edited) He's already backpedalled on that one: Missed that one, thanks. Edited September 23, 2010 by Booster4324 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 (edited) That is a start. Gene, think for a bit. You have people of all stripes telling you that you at best being obstinate. Has organized religion done bad things throughout history? So you want it to simply go away. Well, of course it has, as have governments. Can I then argue from an anarchist's position that we should abandon all government? I presume you will respond something along the lines of, "Well government is needed, whereas religion is not." So let me rebut that one here and you can proceed from there, obviously there is a need for religion as it has been around as long as governments have. Clearly, many of mankind has a need for both. I am still waiting on my overwhelming evidence by the way. He's already backpedalled on that one: Backpedaled? Please! My assertion is that religious people believe in fantastical notions despite a complete lack of evidence. I could as easily have modified the Truther statement to read: It's just their steadfast belief despite a complete lack of evidence that is quite stupid IMO. Strangely, that's exactly what I said about religious people. How is that backpedaling again? Booster, with 90% of the country believing in god, how does "people of all stripes telling me that I'm being obstinate" have any bearing on reality? Of course people are going to disagree with what I'm saying. It threatens their belief system and everything they were brought up to believe in. None of that changes what is, however. Now you guys are free to attack my character or try to pick apart little bits of how I'm making my point, but neither will do anything to advance your position, whatever that might be. In the end, I'd love for someone to show me one shred of evidence that god exists. Anything else you have to say about it is simply background noise and diversion. It is not my job to prove your extraordinary claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. - Carl Sagan Edited September 23, 2010 by Gene Frenkle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 Backpedaled? Please! My assertion is that religious people believe in fantastical notions despite a complete lack of evidence. I could as easily have modified the Truther statement to read: It's just their steadfast belief despite a complete lack of evidence that is quite stupid IMO. Strangely, that's exactly what I said about religious people. How is that backpedaling again? Booster, with 90% of the country believing in god, how does "people of all stripes telling me that I'm being obstinate" have any bearing on reality? Of course people are going to disagree with what I'm saying. It threatens their belief system and everything they were brought up to believe in. None of that changes what is, however. Now you guys are free to attack my character or try to pick apart little bits of how I'm making my point, but neither will do anything to advance your position, whatever that might be. In the end, I'd love for someone to show me one shred of evidence that god exists. Anything else you have to say about it is simply background noise and diversion. It is not my job to prove your extraordinary claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. - Carl Sagan Here's the hilarious thing. Most of the people disagreeing with you don't believe in God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 Here's the hilarious thing. Most of the people disagreeing with you don't believe in God. You say you're a non-believer. With that in mind, breaking it down, it seems to me that your argument is: It is not stupid to believe that a fairy tale is true. It is not stupid to believe that a story lacking any evidence is the most important thing imaginable. I guess when I see it like that, it's really just a subjective argument. I believe that those two statements are false. There's not really much point in arguing a subjective point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 You say you're a non-believer. With that in mind, breaking it down, it seems to me that your argument is: It is not stupid to believe that a fairy tale is true. It is not stupid to believe that a story lacking any evidence is the most important thing imaginable. I guess when I see it like that, it's really just a subjective argument. I believe that those two statements are false. There's not really much point in arguing a subjective point. No, my arguement is that there has been more postive thing accomplished in the name of religion in the past few thousand years than negative. I would never argue the existance or the non-existance. It's a stupid arguement that appears to be your raison d' etre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 Backpedaled? Please! My assertion is that religious people believe in fantastical notions despite a complete lack of evidence. I could as easily have modified the Truther statement to read: It's just their steadfast belief despite a complete lack of evidence that is quite stupid IMO. Strangely, that's exactly what I said about religious people. How is that backpedaling again? Booster, with 90% of the country believing in god, how does "people of all stripes telling me that I'm being obstinate" have any bearing on reality? Of course people are going to disagree with what I'm saying. It threatens their belief system and everything they were brought up to believe in. None of that changes what is, however. Now you guys are free to attack my character or try to pick apart little bits of how I'm making my point, but neither will do anything to advance your position, whatever that might be. In the end, I'd love for someone to show me one shred of evidence that god exists. Anything else you have to say about it is simply background noise and diversion. It is not my job to prove your extraordinary claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. - Carl Sagan Bolded - Not what you said, and it is indeed a backpedal. Italicized - Link please Bolded and italicized - Tis a matter of faith. By definition you cannot prove it. Sad really, you usually are a better poster than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 Bolded - Not what you said, and it is indeed a backpedal. Italicized - Link please Bolded and italicized - Tis a matter of faith. By definition you cannot prove it. Sad really, you usually are a better poster than that. As to the italicized: http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/AmericanReligionSurvey-ARIS/reports/p1b_belief.html So, not quite 90%, I suppose, but close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 As to the italicized: http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/AmericanReligionSurvey-ARIS/reports/p1b_belief.html So, not quite 90%, I suppose, but close. Read that before, but I see a significant difference with the a 90% claim. First off, 6% refused the poll. Second 12% are definitely not believers. Then there are another 12% that believe in something else. That is without delving into the poll questions. Gene will have a hard time proving 90% believe in God in any case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 Read that before, but I see a significant difference with the a 90% claim. First off, 6% refused the poll. Second 12% are definitely not believers. Then there are another 12% that believe in something else. That is without delving into the poll questions. Gene will have a hard time proving 90% believe in God in any case. Not defending the guy, or his claims. Careful with the "12% are not believers" bit. Any rational person will tell you that there is "no way to know" and that they're "not sure." I'm still not sure what to make of the "higher power" types. Obviously that includes deism, but I suppose it could contain all sorts of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 Not defending the guy, or his claims. Careful with the "12% are not believers" bit. Any rational person will tell you that there is "no way to know" and that they're "not sure." I'm still not sure what to make of the "higher power" types. Obviously that includes deism, but I suppose it could contain all sorts of people. Bolded - Fair enough, they could include doubters. Technically according to the faiths that I know, they are not Christians or even Muslims from what I know. Still, try to add all that up to 90%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 Still, try to add all that up to 90%. Let me reiterate something: Not defending the guy, or his claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 Let me reiterate something: I got it the first time. All good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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