BuffaloBob Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 I want my Gold Medal! Seems the South Korean Gymnastic team just doesn't get it. The rule is that the start value of a routine is a field of play judgment that must be protested at the time of the error, not after the competition is over. Everybody knows this. They screwed up. The reason for this rule is obvious: Otherwise, every routine will be open to review for errors indefinitely. The Koreans now want those rules, by which all are supposed to be conducting themselves, to be set aside for them. Absolute nonsense. They need to admit they screwed up and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattStewart Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 I think the South Korean's point would be that the rules were conviently set aside "accidentally" for the American in the first place, so why not for him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 29, 2004 Author Share Posted August 29, 2004 I think the South Korean's point would be that the rules were conviently set aside "accidentally" for the American in the first place, so why not for him? 10840[/snapback] Huh? Making an error in judgment is not setting aside the rules. If a referee in a football game misses that a DB was holding, and a TD pass ensues that wins the game, no rules were set aside accidentally or otherwise. He either made a mistake of omission by not seeing it or he misjudged whether there was a penalty. And by the way, those errors in judgment that are permitted to be reviewed MUST be protested before the next play is run. If judges in the gymnastics competition fail to deduct points for an error in a routine, they have not set aside the rules, they missed the error and made a mistake. If judges in a gymnastics competition misjudge the start value of a routine, again they have simply made an error in judgment. The RULES state that an error in the field of play MUST be brought to the attention of the judges (i.e. protested) before the end of the next routine. EVERYONE knows that, including the Koreans. To permit the Koreans to have an error in judgment ocurring in the field of play be overturned now would be setting aside the rules, which require otherwise. It is NOT an error in judgment to follow the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thailog80 Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 The IOC and the South Korean gymnast have agreed to a deal .The gymnast will not receive a gold medal but will be awarded a 100 lb "Gold"en Retriever. Both sides are extremely pleased with this agreement............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 29, 2004 Author Share Posted August 29, 2004 The IOC and the South Korean gymnast have agreed to a deal .The gymnast will not receive a gold medal but will be awarded a 100 lb "Gold"en Retriever. Both sides are extremely pleased with this agreement............. 10856[/snapback] MMMMMM! Good eaten, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thailog80 Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 MMMMMM! Good eaten, too! 10861[/snapback] That was my point....I guess I didn't deliver it to well huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 I want my Gold Medal! Seems the South Korean Gymnastic team just doesn't get it. The rule is that the start value of a routine is a field of play judgment that must be protested at the time of the error, not after the competition is over. Everybody knows this. They screwed up. The reason for this rule is obvious: Otherwise, every routine will be open to review for errors indefinitely. The Koreans now want those rules, by which all are supposed to be conducting themselves, to be set aside for them. Absolute nonsense. They need to admit they screwed up and move on. 10834[/snapback] The rule is you have until the end of the rotation to file a protest form. The form is handed to the head judge, who conferences with the judges from the event and then they decide immediately to change the score or not. Reviewing video is not permitted. I got this from one of my best friends and my daughter coach. He is an elite coach and has judging certifications. He basically said the SK score was too high as he should have had two major penalties for too many release moves. He said the limit is 4 max, with 3 being the accepted minimum, hence no penalty if you only do 3. He said the 1 arm giant that Hamm did is the hardest mens skill on that event. What this guy told me was for the two extra releases the Sk should have been penalized 5/10 for each and this stevestojan would be over, but the judges ignored them and hence allowed themselves to be open for the problem. He said they were suspended for 1 day only, and reinstated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 29, 2004 Author Share Posted August 29, 2004 The rule is you have until the end of the rotation to file a protest form. The form is handed to the head judge, who conferences with the judges from the event and then they decide immediately to change the score or not. Reviewing video is not permitted. I got this from one of my best friends and my daughter coach. He is an elite coach and has judging certifications. He basically said the SK score was too high as he should have had two major penalties for too many release moves. He said the limit is 4 max, with 3 being the accepted minimum, hence no penalty if you only do 3. He said the 1 arm giant that Hamm did is the hardest mens skill on that event. What this guy told me was for the two extra releases the Sk should have been penalized 5/10 for each and this stevestojan would be over, but the judges ignored them and hence allowed themselves to be open for the problem. He said they were suspended for 1 day only, and reinstated. 10887[/snapback] While I think that whatever this authority is to whom the Koreans have appealed (and what sort of authority they have I don't know) should dismiss this appeal out of hand (there should be no question that an appeal under the rules was not timely filed), the irony is that if they want a re-examination of the thing, it needs to be complete, including the judging of his routine. Of course, this is the whole reason why the rule exists in the first place. Otherwise, you would have endless squabbling over what the judges missed etc. and endless reviews. They could have protested the start value and they failed to do so under the rules. End of story. The other irony is that had they timely filed the protest over the start value, he would have won the gold notwithstanding the failure of the judges to deduct points for the releases. Because only the start value is appealable, he would have won and not deserved to win! And yet they fight on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 29, 2004 Author Share Posted August 29, 2004 That was my point....I guess I didn't deliver it to well huh? 10866[/snapback] I thought you were alluding to that, so I thought I would play straight man and simply state it outright. I guess you are too subtle for your own good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 First they should never ever review a match after the fact. Second if they did review the whole South Korean routine he would of been deducted .2 points for having 4 hold positions. Add the .1 he was mistaskenly cost and subtract the .2 he should be deducted and he does not even get a bronze. What a crybaby. Give Roy Jones his medal if your so honorable South Korea. Rules go both ways- not just when its good for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICE Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 Paul Hamm is 100% correct in this situation. 1) there is no instant replay in Gymnastics. It's over period. 2) if they want to review then fine, the Korean had a MAJOR mistake worth a two tenths deduction that was very obvious. He wouldnt have won any way. Now Korea shut the Fugg up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Live&DieBillsFootball Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 Larry Felser's article in the Sunday News talked about why Hamm should have either given up the medal or the USOC should have forced him to. He says that the US can gain respect in the world by forcing this 21 year old gymnast to give up his lifelong dream. I don't think so! As previos posts have stated, the Koreans had their chance to protest and missed it. Also, are we going to start allowing after-the-fact replays to correct mistakes? Then start by giving th US the B-Ball Gold from 1972. Upon further review, the US got screwed. Hey, if the IOC wants to admit that they fugged up and give an "additional" gold to the Korean, go ahead. Just don't go asking a US kid who gave a true heroic performance to give up the medal that he earned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 Rules, schmules...I would not want to "win" a gold medal by a mistake. That's so hollow. Either you win it outright, or you don't. Apologies to all you flag-wavers. I happen to believe in an America that values honor and justice, not hiding behind a technicality. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syhuang Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 Rules, schmules...I would not to "win" a gold medal by a mistake. That's so hollow. Either you win it outright, or you don't. Apologies to all you flag-wavers. I happen to believe in an America that values honor and justice, not hiding behind a technicality. PTR 10963[/snapback] By rules, Hamm wins the gold. If reviewing the video is SOMEHOW allowed to change the outcome, this korean gymnasts will have NO MEDAL. He will recieve +0.1 in starting point and -0.2 in deduction because of four holds. Therefore, this is no difference, Mamm should keep his gold medal based on rules, honor, and justice. BTW, I'm no an American, so I don't fall into your FLAG-WAIVERS category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 29, 2004 Author Share Posted August 29, 2004 Rules, schmules...I would not to "win" a gold medal by a mistake. That's so hollow. Either you win it outright, or you don't. Apologies to all you flag-wavers. I happen to believe in an America that values honor and justice, not hiding behind a technicality. PTR 10963[/snapback] Well, perhaps what we should do is go back and review every judged event from the Olympics throughout history for field of play errors by the judges, and redistribute the medals accordingly. I am sure there would be plenty. Who knows, maybe the US would end up with more medals than it loses. Perhaps we could do it for the Winter Olympics as well! And given the fact that a complete review of the judging would not change the results anyway, are you suggesting that Mr. Hamm give back his medal anyway? Or are you advocating his giving up his medal based upon only a partial re-review of the results (i.e. only that part that could have been changed had the Koreans actually followed the rules like everyone else and lodged their protest within the time alotted by rule)? And if so, would your theory not then require that the Korean guy give his medal, awarded in hinidsight, back to Hamm because he didn't actually win the event outright based on the judges failure to deduct the points from the Korean gymnast and thus winning on a technicality? Or is this whole giving back medals and not hiding behind technicalities thingy only for flag waving Americans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 the scoring error was not a judgement call......they made a mistake, and cost the guy points........ hamm didn't earn a gold.....if the guy is properly credited for his difficulty, hamm finsihes second, end of story.....i don't know why he'd want to keep something he didn't legitately earn...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 29, 2004 Author Share Posted August 29, 2004 the scoring error was not a judgement call......they made a mistake, and cost the guy points........11065[/snapback] Sorry, but this is incorrect. They attribute degree of difficulty (a judgement), based on the moves in the routine and some standards that have been established EVERY time a routine is performed. There are disagreements all of the time with respect to the start values, and whether or not a routine should have a greater or lesser value. That is why the rules state that any such disagreement must be protested within a short time frame. It is not like a gymnast performs some standard routine with an attributed start value that is automatically dteremined from some computer printout. It is determined by the judges based on their judgment, just like the value of the routine performed is based on their judgment. I heard an interview with a US coach, who said they are always prepared to protest if a start value is not attributed to a routine based on what they think it should be, and they don't always win those appeals. But they, and the Koreans, and everyone else knows that this is one thing that can be reviewed if a protest is filed in time. But the misjudging of start value is in no way different than missing the technical deductions missed on the Korean's routine, except that the start value can be challenged if done soon enough. hamm didn't earn a gold.....if the guy is properly credited for his difficulty, hamm finsihes second, end of story.....i don't know why he'd want to keep something he didn't legitately earn...... 11065[/snapback] If the Korean is properly deducted for his releases, Hamm wins the gold, end of story. So why would the Korean want to keep something HE didn't legitimately earn? You can't have it both ways. You want to change the rules so the Koreans cah have their start value adjudged correctly, then why should we not insist that the rules be changed so that the Korean gymnast's routine be properly adjudged as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Y. Mous Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 Gymnastics has very quickly become the figure skating controversial event of the Olympics. This is why I can only appreciate these events for the talent levels of the athletes but despise it as a "sport" at the same time. First off the Korean should get the gold - but the US should not give up their gold. They should just admit they screwed up in the judging and have a duel gold medal. Problem solved everyone is happy. Why can't everyone see this! IN RETURN THOSE CHEATING KOREANS SHOULD GIVE ROY JONES JR. his gold that he deserved. Second the Canadian should have been awarded the bronze over the Romanian who fell and won over him also in gymnastics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 29, 2004 Author Share Posted August 29, 2004 First off the Korean should get the gold Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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