Contray to popular belief our O-line may be the building block of this

[Lenigmusx]

I remember the darkest period in this franchises history very well 1984, 1985 and in 1986 the light began to flicker on.. I think this year will resemble 1986 and 1987, if only we had a young Jim Kelly. However what we do have is a much milgned O-line that is very young. This is very similar to 1986 and 1987. We had a very strong interior line that was young in 1986. It was Kent Hull at Center (he was an NFL rookie although he played in the usfl). The Guards were Jim Ritcher a 6yr vet but I would say Wood is his equal and Will Wolford a Rookie with a huge upside similar to Leivtre although Leivtre has that extra year. The tackles were definitely the weak spot in 1986 as they are now. Ken Jones a 10 year veteran was at left tackle. He was on the downside of a career that he started as a DE. He did play with Electric company but he was at the stop gap capcity by 1986. I think that Bell has a much better upside than Jones did. That is why Wolford was moved to LT in 1987. As the most talented lineman he was moved. But his inexperience lead to mistakes that year much like Bell. The two places that this line had the current line were RT and Center. Hangartner is not and never will be Kent Hull!! Joe Devlin even on the downside was better than Cornell Green/J. Meredith but even if those positions hold their own this line is beginning to look solid. There are great similarities in the building process much like 1986/1987. Building through the draft with young athletic talent. In 1987 we acquired Tim Vogler and moved him to RG and even though this was a strike year the line play improved over the duration of the season. Then in 1988 after two seasons of growth this young talented O-line began to gel and would carry the team through the Super Bowl era with a couple changes here and there from year to year. In 1989 we drafted Howard Ballard and shifted Joe Devlin to Guard. I think this was part of what contributed to the "bickering Bills". Ballard was a turnstile at RT in his first year and Kelly called him out weekly but he got better. I think that this is where we are at and now and this is the formula that is being implemented. This line will be very good just give them a little time! I have a good feeling that our offense is going to turn the corner on last decades abysmal performances and the o-line will be the reason.

[bills in va]

Wake up our Oline is not what will lead us into relevance unless we get an infusion of talent and depth.

[Lenigmusx]

Wake up our Oline is not what will lead us into relevance unless we get an infusion of talent and depth.

You must be too young to have lived through the 1984 and 1985 seasons. I remember the same sentiment back then but there is talent on the o-line be patient.

[Lenigmusx]

Wake up our Oline is not what will lead us into relevance unless we get an infusion of talent and depth.

BTW, did you read my post? I am not predicting super bowl or anything. I just think we are finally building a line the right way, through the draft. It will still probably be a tough year for this line but hopefully by December we will have something that will last a few seasons and be a strength. 1987 was a rough year for the Bills but they were on the verge. I just think the FO office may have revisited what lead to past success and tried to duplicate it. We don't need free agents on the o-line, we need to build a line with our own talent. How many o-line free agents are very successful when the jump from team to team? I think the o-line is an area where you really have to develop your own talent to be successful. Maybe this is a system thing or maybe it is a work ethic thing. I don't know why but Free agent o-line are usually unsuccessful IMO. Probably because they got paid and get lazy but I just can't figure it out.

[H2o]

I remember the darkest period in this franchises history very well 1984, 1985 and in 1986 the light began to flicker on.. I think this year will resemble 1986 and 1987, if only we had a young Jim Kelly. However what we do have is a much milgned O-line that is very young. This is very similar to 1986 and 1987. We had a very strong interior line that was young in 1986. It was Kent Hull at Center (he was an NFL rookie although he played in the usfl). The Guards were Jim Ritcher a 6yr vet but I would say Wood is his equal and Will Wolford a Rookie with a huge upside similar to Leivtre although Leivtre has that extra year. The tackles were definitely the weak spot in 1986 as they are now. Ken Jones a 10 year veteran was at left tackle. He was on the downside of a career that he started as a DE. He did play with Electric company but he was at the stop gap capcity by 1986. I think that Bell has a much better upside than Jones did. That is why Wolford was moved to LT in 1987. As the most talented lineman he was moved. But his inexperience lead to mistakes that year much like Bell. The two places that this line had the current line were RT and Center. Hangartner is not and never will be Kent Hull!! Joe Devlin even on the downside was better than Cornell Green/J. Meredith but even if those positions hold their own this line is beginning to look solid. There are great similarities in the building process much like 1986/1987. Building through the draft with young athletic talent. In 1987 we acquired Tim Vogler and moved him to RG and even though this was a strike year the line play improved over the duration of the season. Then in 1988 after two seasons of growth this young talented O-line began to gel and would carry the team through the Super Bowl era with a couple changes here and there from year to year. In 1989 we drafted Howard Ballard and shifted Joe Devlin to Guard. I think this was part of what contributed to the "bickering Bills". Ballard was a turnstile at RT in his first year and Kelly called him out weekly but he got better. I think that this is where we are at and now and this is the formula that is being implemented. This line will be very good just give them a little time! I have a good feeling that our offense is going to turn the corner on last decades abysmal performances and the o-line will be the reason.

I think our line next season will have a starting 5 that is set like this:

 

LT - Bell

LG - Levitre

C - Wood

RG - Calloway

RT - Meredith

 

In two years our OL will be a strength and not a weakness.

[tbonestake]

I remember the darkest period in this franchises history very well 1984, 1985 and in 1986 the light began to flicker on.. I think this year will resemble 1986 and 1987, if only we had a young Jim Kelly. However what we do have is a much milgned O-line that is very young. This is very similar to 1986 and 1987. We had a very strong interior line that was young in 1986. It was Kent Hull at Center (he was an NFL rookie although he played in the usfl). The Guards were Jim Ritcher a 6yr vet but I would say Wood is his equal and Will Wolford a Rookie with a huge upside similar to Leivtre although Leivtre has that extra year. The tackles were definitely the weak spot in 1986 as they are now. Ken Jones a 10 year veteran was at left tackle. He was on the downside of a career that he started as a DE. He did play with Electric company but he was at the stop gap capcity by 1986. I think that Bell has a much better upside than Jones did. That is why Wolford was moved to LT in 1987. As the most talented lineman he was moved. But his inexperience lead to mistakes that year much like Bell. The two places that this line had the current line were RT and Center. Hangartner is not and never will be Kent Hull!! Joe Devlin even on the downside was better than Cornell Green/J. Meredith but even if those positions hold their own this line is beginning to look solid. There are great similarities in the building process much like 1986/1987. Building through the draft with young athletic talent. In 1987 we acquired Tim Vogler and moved him to RG and even though this was a strike year the line play improved over the duration of the season. Then in 1988 after two seasons of growth this young talented O-line began to gel and would carry the team through the Super Bowl era with a couple changes here and there from year to year. In 1989 we drafted Howard Ballard and shifted Joe Devlin to Guard. I think this was part of what contributed to the "bickering Bills". Ballard was a turnstile at RT in his first year and Kelly called him out weekly but he got better. I think that this is where we are at and now and this is the formula that is being implemented. This line will be very good just give them a little time! I have a good feeling that our offense is going to turn the corner on last decades abysmal performances and the o-line will be the reason.

 

 

Great insights but paragraphs would make it a little easier on the eyes:flirt:

[South Jersey Bills Fan]

Wake up our Oline is not what will lead us into relevance unless we get an infusion of talent and depth.

 

 

No need for the insults. I agree with the OP, the OL is headed in the right direction.

[ganesh]

I think our line next season will have a starting 5 that is set like this:

 

LT - Bell

LG - Levitre

C - Wood

RG - Calloway

RT - Meredith

 

In two years our OL will be a strength and not a weakness.

 

And then we will let them all walk because we cannot pay all of them at the same time. Event at the end of this year, we may have significant pay roll issues. Assuming Gailey works his magic on Edwards, and the defense under Whitner and Poz go on to become very solid, then we would need to have new contracts for these three players next season. Add Roscoe Parrish to the mix, if all indications that he will be our #2 is true. That would then soon be followed up by ponying money for McKelvin, Levitre, Lee Evans. I hope the Bills do well and also retain their best players and continue to dabble in the FA to get mid-level players like the Steelers do.

[shoretalk]

Wake up our Oline is not what will lead us into relevance unless we get an infusion of talent and depth.

Good offensive lines don't just happen ... players have to use their talent and athletic abilities to grow into good/great NFL linemen. It amazes me how people on this board continuously think that Pro-Bowlers just start as Pro Bowl calibar players and that the Bills somehow have screwed up by not getting five of them.

 

Bell is physically gifted, athletically talented and recognized by two different coaching regimes as having the potential to be not just a good NFL LT but a very good one. Both of our guards have proven in their first year that they have the skill and attitude to be long time players in the league (And, even those Pro-Bowlers miss a block from time to time or are a step behind their RB's), we don't have a Kent Hull at center but we have an intelliigent good center who managed to call the plays for a mangled OL last year that resulted in an average rushing gain of 4+ yards per carry while under the coaching guidance of 'we better sit down kids' Jauron. At RT, I need to see more of Green but I suspect that Meredith will be sliding into the RT slot either this year or next.

 

So, the comparison with the 80's OL (GOOD POST by the way) is reasonable ... I think we are going to be very pleased this season as this line continues to learn and mature together. One other poster has Wood eventually sliding over to C and that is a possibility too.

 

But, we have the essential ingredients for a solid line in the NFL. We do need quality back-up players but doesn't every team in the league? Now, if we can throw off this injury jinx that is hurting us.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[offsides#76FredSmerlas]

I like the optimisim. I always have my hope throttle way up before the first kickoff. I just can't bring myself to that point with the O-line though. The bottom line is that our offensive line has been horrible for the last 10 seasons and until they can prove their worth on Sundays I cannot be as optimistic as you claim to be. I think we have 2 players worth a damn but they are young and will make mistakes (Wood & Levitre). Bell has done nothing in his career up to this point to show he can be a consistent player; Green is average at best and Hangartner has been nothing short of a disappointment in my book. He just doesn't seem physical enough to get any push and gets blown back on pass protection. I am no expert on offensive lines but I know our QB's have been running for their lives on nearly every play for the last 10 seasons. We need to get stronger at the center spot and at the very least at one of the tackle positions-"along with some more game experience" before I see things getting much better. In saying all that "I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT AND I AM WRONG"-GO BILLS!!!

[thewildrabbit]

I remember the darkest period in this franchises history very well 1984, 1985 and in 1986 the light began to flicker on.. I think this year will resemble 1986 and 1987, if only we had a young Jim Kelly. However what we do have is a much milgned O-line that is very young. This is very similar to 1986 and 1987. We had a very strong interior line that was young in 1986. It was Kent Hull at Center (he was an NFL rookie although he played in the usfl). The Guards were Jim Ritcher a 6yr vet but I would say Wood is his equal and Will Wolford a Rookie with a huge upside similar to Leivtre although Leivtre has that extra year. The tackles were definitely the weak spot in 1986 as they are now. Ken Jones a 10 year veteran was at left tackle. He was on the downside of a career that he started as a DE. He did play with Electric company but he was at the stop gap capcity by 1986. I think that Bell has a much better upside than Jones did. That is why Wolford was moved to LT in 1987. As the most talented lineman he was moved. But his inexperience lead to mistakes that year much like Bell. The two places that this line had the current line were RT and Center. Hangartner is not and never will be Kent Hull!! Joe Devlin even on the downside was better than Cornell Green/J. Meredith but even if those positions hold their own this line is beginning to look solid. There are great similarities in the building process much like 1986/1987. Building through the draft with young athletic talent. In 1987 we acquired Tim Vogler and moved him to RG and even though this was a strike year the line play improved over the duration of the season. Then in 1988 after two seasons of growth this young talented O-line began to gel and would carry the team through the Super Bowl era with a couple changes here and there from year to year. In 1989 we drafted Howard Ballard and shifted Joe Devlin to Guard. I think this was part of what contributed to the "bickering Bills". Ballard was a turnstile at RT in his first year and Kelly called him out weekly but he got better. I think that this is where we are at and now and this is the formula that is being implemented. This line will be very good just give them a little time! I have a good feeling that our offense is going to turn the corner on last decades abysmal performances and the o-line will be the reason.

 

When Bill Polian was hired as GM he stated "we were 2-14 on merit because we have the worst personnel in the NFL" . Polian built most of that O line in Buffalo just like he has built a solid O line for the Colts, last time I looked he was still in Indy.

 

I would say there is no way that Eric Wood is anywhere near equal to a 6 year vet Jim Ritcher at this point in his career, Andy Levitre and Wood are about the only bright spots on the line right now and both still have a long way to go before they are considered top players at their positions, a long way.This team still needs two new tackles and a center, I don't see anyone at those positions on the current roster that can ever play up to the level of the late 80's early 90's Bills linemen.

 

The "Bickering Bills" got their nickname from 1989 from infighting among the players, an incident that occurred in a 1990 Miami game caused all the bickering to stop, In week 2 Buffalo traveled to the new home of the Miami Dolphins- Joe Robbie stadium. Buffalo's 6 game winning streak against the Dolphins came to a thundering halt. Miami ran off 30 consecutive points in 30 minutes. Midway through the 4th quarter, Levy pulled his starters when the game was out of hand, but many on the defense refused to come out of the game. Those defensive players knocked over the Gatorade table and were talking trash and throwing things around, The result were fines to Bruce Smith, and DB's Leonard Smith, Kirby Jackson, and Nate Odomes.Marv stated that kind of behavior would not be tolerated. Ralph Wilson came out and also stated that any player who didn't want to play for Marv would be removed from the team. The result of Wilson backing up Marv was to unify the team and they went on a tear, only losing one more game on MNF while on their way to the SB.

 

Currently the Bills have 2 decent guards and one of those could be moved to center... from my view the Bills still need 2 tackles,and another center / guard plus a blocking TE like Pete M who was considered an O linemen who could catch.Then they might someday have an O line equal to those amazing Bills of the late 80's early 90's

[HARCO186]

A team doesn't get a 1,000 yd running back from a bad line. We were way too predictable last year. Even Whitnor came out and said other teams told them they knew what the Bills were doing. It's hard to pass when a team knows you're going to pass, and hard to run when they know you will run. Still we managed to take a guy who was not regarded as a starter by most teams (Jackson) and he managed 1,000 yds anyways. The team still won 6 games being this way. Remember, name a rookie lineman??? They may not have played together solid due to injury, but they have spent time together as a team. I'm not saying they are elite or even a bunch of pro bowlers, but they will not get pushed around this year like last year. Teams will be surprised by what Chan does. He won't hide the fact that BUFALO WILL BE A RUNNING TEAM, with 3/4 running backs we should be; but I believe that we will hit someone off guard. It takes one play to change momentum. Just one, to turn the tide. Put Spiller in there, and now you have 2 things going. I really feel that in Indy, Chan wet everyones whistle and let critics/fans know that he knows how to call plays and will do so. That was a message if anything that he says not only can they, but will be able to strike anywhere on the field. Our O-Line is going to have us running the ball, and Trent will have time to throw because we won't be predictable.

[purple haze]

And then we will let them all walk because we cannot pay all of them at the same time. Event at the end of this year, we may have significant pay roll issues. Assuming Gailey works his magic on Edwards, and the defense under Whitner and Poz go on to become very solid, then we would need to have new contracts for these three players next season. Add Roscoe Parrish to the mix, if all indications that he will be our #2 is true. That would then soon be followed up by ponying money for McKelvin, Levitre, Lee Evans. I hope the Bills do well and also retain their best players and continue to dabble in the FA to get mid-level players like the Steelers do.

 

Why do you believe they will have payroll issues after this season? Where do you get that from? Nix has already talked about their method of operation. Build through the draft. Obtain low cost FA's to fill specific holes and pay their own players that have done well for the team and continue to build around them. So far Buddy has done everything he said he will do. I don't see paying upcoming FA Bills being any different if their play merits it.

 

When Bill Polian was hired as GM he stated "we were 2-14 on merit because we have the worst personnel in the NFL" . Polian built most of that O line in Buffalo just like he has built a solid O line for the Colts, last time I looked he was still in Indy.

 

I would say there is no way that Eric Wood is anywhere near equal to a 6 year vet Jim Ritcher at this point in his career, Andy Levitre and Wood are about the only bright spots on the line right now and both still have a long way to go before they are considered top players at their positions, a long way.This team still needs two new tackles and a center, I don't see anyone at those positions on the current roster that can ever play up to the level of the late 80's early 90's Bills linemen.

 

 

Currently the Bills have 2 decent guards and one of those could be moved to center... from my view the Bills still need 2 tackles,and another center / guard plus a blocking TE like Pete M who was considered an O linemen who could catch.Then they might someday have an O line equal to those amazing Bills of the late 80's early 90's

 

You don't know that they need a LT. Would you let Bell play first. If he hasn't significantly improved from last season then I'm with you. But I think Bell has the physical capability to be a very good LT. He needs experience.

Edited August 27, 2010 by purple haze

[Throwback Bills]

I agree we have talent.

 

The Hogs started out much the way this line is. With the youth on this line if it gels, we will be set for along time and even Trent Dilfer/Edwards/Mr. no mistakes/Mr. Conservative could QB a Superbowl.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Throwback Bills

[thewildrabbit]

A team doesn't get a 1,000 yd running back from a bad line. We were way too predictable last year. Even Whitnor came out and said other teams told them they knew what the Bills were doing. It's hard to pass when a team knows you're going to pass, and hard to run when they know you will run. Still we managed to take a guy who was not regarded as a starter by most teams (Jackson) and he managed 1,000 yds anyways. The team still won 6 games being this way. Remember, name a rookie lineman??? They may not have played together solid due to injury, but they have spent time together as a team. I'm not saying they are elite or even a bunch of pro bowlers, but they will not get pushed around this year like last year. Teams will be surprised by what Chan does. He won't hide the fact that BUFALO WILL BE A RUNNING TEAM, with 3/4 running backs we should be; but I believe that we will hit someone off guard. It takes one play to change momentum. Just one, to turn the tide. Put Spiller in there, and now you have 2 things going. I really feel that in Indy, Chan wet everyones whistle and let critics/fans know that he knows how to call plays and will do so. That was a message if anything that he says not only can they, but will be able to strike anywhere on the field. Our O-Line is going to have us running the ball, and Trent will have time to throw because we won't be predictable.

I would disagree, a team can still be horrid pass blocking while being 1/2 way decent at run blocking as was last seasons Bills. Whats a 1000 yards out of a 16 game season anyway, 62.5 yards a game... big woop. Fred Jackson got most of those yards on his own after first contact IMO.

 

Last years tackles folded like wet cardboard when it counted most and I don't see much improvement at this point. Just wait until these guys need to play 60 minutes and then watch what they do in the 4th quarter when the game is on the line and the team needs to make a 3rd and long.

[bills in va]

You must be too young to have lived through the 1984 and 1985 seasons. I remember the same sentiment back then but there is talent on the o-line be patient.

Ive been patient as a fan for over thirty years, extremely patient the past 11. Too young? Yeah right. I sat through the early 80's next to people with bags over their heads. I'm tired of being patient. You think our Oline is talented, keep drinking the kool aid buddy. We have very young guys with potential, misfit outcasts and practice squad plunders...If you call that talent we're speaking different languages!

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

LOL @ our O-line, and LOL @ this thread.

[hondo in seattle]

I appreciate the optimism... but I wonder if your optimism is any more warranted than the excessive pessimism that appears here with frequency.

 

To me, Wood, Levitre and Bell are all question marks. As fans, we only have a vague idea how they might perform this year because they were so raw and inexperienced last year. How much of a leap forward can we reasonably expect? Will any of them regress instead? I hope your comparison to the O Line of the late 80s turns out to be justified. Personally, I won't completely believe in their potential until it becomes a reality.

 

Also unknown is Gailey and his coaching staff. Certainly, there's good reason to believe that the offense will be more competently coached this year. But how much more remains to be seen.

 

The defense, of course, is also full of question marks. For example, how will our old DTs do as DEs and our old DEs as OLBs?

 

2010 will be an interesting year for Bills fans. Many questions to resolve. I suppose with so much uncertainty, it's better to be optimistic until piling losses kick you in the face.

 

Btw, I also can't see Edwards morphing into J.Kelly under Gailey's tutelage. But maybe into a Joe Ferguson?

[SuperKillerRobots]

I remember the darkest period in this franchises history very well 1984, 1985 and in 1986 the light began to flicker on.. I think this year will resemble 1986 and 1987, if only we had a young Jim Kelly. However what we do have is a much milgned O-line that is very young. This is very similar to 1986 and 1987. We had a very strong interior line that was young in 1986. It was Kent Hull at Center (he was an NFL rookie although he played in the usfl). The Guards were Jim Ritcher a 6yr vet but I would say Wood is his equal and Will Wolford a Rookie with a huge upside similar to Leivtre although Leivtre has that extra year. The tackles were definitely the weak spot in 1986 as they are now. Ken Jones a 10 year veteran was at left tackle. He was on the downside of a career that he started as a DE. He did play with Electric company but he was at the stop gap capcity by 1986. I think that Bell has a much better upside than Jones did. That is why Wolford was moved to LT in 1987. As the most talented lineman he was moved. But his inexperience lead to mistakes that year much like Bell. The two places that this line had the current line were RT and Center. Hangartner is not and never will be Kent Hull!! Joe Devlin even on the downside was better than Cornell Green/J. Meredith but even if those positions hold their own this line is beginning to look solid. There are great similarities in the building process much like 1986/1987. Building through the draft with young athletic talent. In 1987 we acquired Tim Vogler and moved him to RG and even though this was a strike year the line play improved over the duration of the season. Then in 1988 after two seasons of growth this young talented O-line began to gel and would carry the team through the Super Bowl era with a couple changes here and there from year to year. In 1989 we drafted Howard Ballard and shifted Joe Devlin to Guard. I think this was part of what contributed to the "bickering Bills". Ballard was a turnstile at RT in his first year and Kelly called him out weekly but he got better. I think that this is where we are at and now and this is the formula that is being implemented. This line will be very good just give them a little time! I have a good feeling that our offense is going to turn the corner on last decades abysmal performances and the o-line will be the reason.

 

Good post and very interesting parallels. I hope to hell that it works out that way.

 

I'm with what seems to be the majority of posters on this thread so far that Bell needs time to play to see what we have in him. It's certainly possible that he's fine at LT for the foreseeable future. I do think that eventually Hangartner and Green will be replaced, as the seem more like stop-gap types (Green moreso obviously). I don't share the optimism on Meredith, but do think he deserves a chance to play at RT efore we make any final judgements.

 

It seems like most good offensive lines start out somewhat good and add more pieces over a few seasons to become dominant. To put it another way, I don't think teams go from having a terrible o-line to having a great o-line in one season. I think you go from having a terrible o-line to having a decent o-line with one or two deficiancies (i.e. pass blocking, run blocking, need RT/LT/G/C, etc). Not to say that last year because we could run sometimes, we had a decent o-line - I think right now we're in the stage where we could have a decent o-line this year - but I think if they can be competitive, not lose anyone to IR, and identify whatever weaknesses that line has, they will be able to go after players to fill those deficiancies. When everyone on the line is hurt or out of shape, it's hard to tell exactly what you have, which makes it difficult to identify the weaknesses. For instance, does anyone really know how good of an RT Butler was? It's impossible - he wasn't on the field long enough to make any judgement and I think the same could be said of Bell, Wood, and potentially Levitre.

[Chef Jim]

No need for the insults. I agree with the OP, the OL is headed in the right direction.

 

Insults?? I highly recommend you do not venture far from this particular part of this site.