Didn't Joe Montana win a superbowl

[thewildrabbit]

JOE MONTANA IS GREAT... *fixed*

 

GO BILLS!

 

That same Bill Walsh 'west coast offense" that revolutionized an NFL offense into the greatest offensive scheme still played today.

 

Steve Young went 2-14 for 2 years in TB, went to SF and won a SB and countless playoff games.

 

Brett Favre, a bench warming loser in Atlanta goes to GB and under Mike Holmgren and the WCO wins a SB and becomes one of the greatest QB's ever.

 

John Elway went to 3 SB's and lost them all and didn't win one until Mike Shanahan came to Denver and taught him the WCO, Elway went on to win 2x SB with Shanahan and the WCO.

 

GB still utilizes the WCO and Aaron Rodgers studied under Brett Farve for 4 years and is now emerging as a top QB. Philly and Minnesota and now Washington uses the WCO. Jon Gruden won a SB with it and they still use it in TB as Greg Olsen is teaching Josh Freeman the WCO. The Browns will now utilize the WCO in Cleveland with Holmgren as Pres. Seattle went to the SB with Holgen as HC and used the WCO.

 

Look who Joe Montana's coaches were in SF, Bill Walsh HC-Mike Holmgren OC-Andy Reid QC coach. Then look at the coaches who are in that Bill Walsh coaching tree.

Mike Holmgren-Steve Mariucci-Andy Reid- Mike Sherman-Ray Rhodes-Brad Childress-Marty Mornhinweg-John harbaugh.

 

Jim Fassel-John Fox

 

Paul Hackett-Mike McCarthy- Jon Gruden-Bill Callahan

 

Sam Wyche-Bruce Coslett-Mike Mularkey

 

George Seifert- Mike Shanahan-Gary Kubiak-Jeff Fisher

 

Dennis Green-Brian Billick-Mike Tice-Scott Linehan-Jack Del Rio-Mike Smith-Tony Gungy-Lovie Smith-Mike Tomlin-Rod Marinelli.

 

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Not for nothing but Trent Edwards played in a WCO while at Stanford AFAIK, so he should know that offense.

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The Theory behind the WCO is to pass first with short timed passes to set up the deeper passes and running game, rather then run to setup the pass. The key to Walsh's attack was the 3 step drop and precise timing routes run by the receivers.

 

Precise timed routes run by the receivers...in Buffalo?...

 

Look at who has been running the Buffalo Bills offense for the last 10 years, the OC's, the QB coaches the HC, and then tell me the Bills have been darn near dead last in offense for a decade solely because of lack of QB talent.

 

 

The Bills haven't had a decent offensive mind in Buffalo since Ted Marchibroda, who taught Jim Kelly to call his own plays.

[Thurman#1]

Perhaps a "bit of a stretch" with my "new found opitimism." I stand corrected Thurman#1. By the way, I always seem to enjoy reading your post.

 

 

 

That's very kind of you, mpl6876. See you on the boards.

[Alphadawg7]

That same Bill Walsh 'west coast offense" that revolutionized an NFL offense into the greatest offensive scheme still played today.

 

Steve Young went 2-14 for 2 years in TB, went to SF and won a SB and countless playoff games.

 

Brett Farve, a bench warming loser in Atlanta goes to GB and under Mike Holmgren and the WCO wins a SB and becomes one of the greatest QB's ever.

 

John Elway went to 3 SB's and lost them all and didn't win one until Mike Shanahan came to Denver and taught him the WCO, Elway went on to win 2x SB with Shanahan and the WCO.

 

GB still utilizes the WCO and Aaron Rodgers studied under Brett Farve for 4 years and is now emerging as a top QB. Philly and Minnesota and now Washington uses the WCO. Jon Gruden won a SB with it and they still use it in TB as Greg Olsen is teaching Josh Freeman the WCO. The Browns will now utilize the WCO in Cleveland with Holmgren as Pres. Seattle went to the SB with Holgen as HC and used the WCO.

 

Look who Joe Montana's coaches were in SF, Bill Walsh HC-Mike Holmgren OC-Andy Reid QC coach. Then look at the coaches who are in that Bill Walsh coaching tree.

Mike Holmgren-Steve Mariucci-Andy Reid- Mike Sherman-Ray Rhodes-Brad Childress-Marty Mornhinweg-John harbaugh.

 

Jim Fassel-John Fox

 

Paul Hackett-Mike McCarthy- Jon Gruden-Bill Callahan

 

Sam Wyche-Bruce Coslett-Mike Mularkey

 

George Seifert- Mike Shanahan-Gary Kubiak-Jeff Fisher

 

Dennis Green-Brian Billick-Mike Tice-Scott Linehan-Jack Del Rio-Mike Smith-Tony Gungy-Lovie Smith-Mike Tomlin-Rod Marinelli.

 

--------------------------------------

 

Not for nothing but Trent Edwards played in a WCO while at Stanford AFAIK, so he should know that offense.

--------------------------------------

 

The Theory behind the WCO is to pass first with short timed passes to set up the deeper passes and running game, rather then run to setup the pass. The key to Walsh's attack was the 3 step drop and precise timing routes run by the receivers.

 

Precise timed routes run by the receivers...in Buffalo?...

 

Look at who has been running the Buffalo Bills offense for the last 10 years, the OC's, the QB coaches the HC, and then tell me the Bills have been darn near dead last in offense for a decade solely because of lack of QB talent.

 

 

The Bills haven't had a decent offensive mind in Buffalo since Ted Marchibroda, who taught Jim Kelly to call his own plays.

 

I want to give you an award for one of the worst posts, both for its pathetic historical inaccuracies and total gibberish, that this board has seen this offseason...congratulations, for your suckitude is unmatched...

 

Where to begin...lets see, Steve Young went from the least talented (and one of the least talented teams ever in the NFL) in football where he played as a rookie and 2nd year QB to the most talented team in the NFL...hmmmm

 

Favre was a 2nd round draft pick and traded for a first round draft pick prior to his 2nd season...so where do you get he was a bench warming loser? I dont even know why I ask you because history shows you are incapable of a rational thought or post...I mean you are the same guy that said if Montana was drafted by a lousy team (which he was) then he would have been nothing...

 

John Elway won SB's because Shannahan brought zone blocking and created the best rushing scheme the league had seen and paired that with a HOF QB...Terell Davis was the difference maker in getting Elway over the hump...

 

The rest of your post is so full of gibberish that I am not even going to bother responding to it all...I mean you are actually calling GB a WCO...geezus, your posts get more worthless every time I see you. GB has one of the biggest deep passing games in the NFL and constantly attacks in the mid range and long passing zones and is not a WCO

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

I too always bought into the weak but accurate mantra for Montana despite having seen him play. Looking back at the highlights, he had more of a "Manning weak arm" than a “Pennington weak arm”. He could put the ball anywhere on the field, and although not Favre, when he got planted there was zip on the ball. Lots of perfect medium range passes. Watching the clip I wondered how he even spotted the WR on some plays.

 

 

Joe highlights

[GrudginglyPessimistic]

Long winded post and stating the obvious. Of course competetion is the best...

I agree this is obvious, but apparently the idea that competition is the best is lost upon the original thread in this post. That post invited longwinded statements of the obvious by advocating we MUST give the starter slot to TE NOW without competition because this is so obviously logical.

 

It does not matter that this so-called logic demands that we ignore:

 

1. The reality that the Bills ignored the promise of competition to give the starter job (and guaranteed starter money and then guaranteed starter money Flutie won by performing as our scouts said he would and he hit all of his incentives.

 

2. The reality that Bledsoe simply sucked on the field his second season and TD decided that so-called logic demanded he extend Bledsoe's deal.

 

3. The reality that JP by his own admission did not win the starter job the way he should have won it (by winning a competition on the field) and was given the starter job before he deserved it or the braintrust was committed to it.

 

4. The reality is that TE had a great start but the simple fact is he missed PT to three different injuries in his first two years and by this objective standard (which Mr. Logic should argue is not a good standard to give the label injury prone to TE if he really thinks we should GIVE him the starter job.

 

The Bills problem in this fans view is that in a slavish quest to try to make up for Mr. Ralph flat out making a dumb football assessment that Jimbo was gonna play for a long time when he ignored the salary cap and made a handshake deal to reward Jimbo in his next contract (which never happened and the Bills simply GAVE Jimbo a cool million to walk away because they pursued the same logic this thread advocates in GIVING the job to Edwards without competition.

 

Hey its still off-season but this thread invites longwinded statements of the obvious as it advocates a so-called logical approach which ignores statements of reality it somehow refuses to incorporate and ignores objective assessments of injury pronosity (how is that for a longwinded pseudo word).

 

As the original post invites:

 

Bring it on.

 

Why does logic demand we ignore reality?

 

Don't the Bills have a clear record of making bad decisions to give the starter job to players who their logic dictated they start but reality proved they were not ready (at best)?

 

Don't the Bills have a clear record of going with injury prone players as starters without having a reliable back-up in place since the Frank Reich/Jimbo days?

 

Logical smogical

[thewildrabbit]

I want to give you an award for one of the worst posts, both for its pathetic historical inaccuracies and total gibberish, that this board has seen this offseason...congratulations, for your suckitude is unmatched...

 

I'm so happy to annoy the one buffoon who thinks he knows everything

 

Where to begin...lets see, Steve Young went from the least talented (and one of the least talented teams ever in the NFL) in football where he played as a rookie and 2nd year QB to the most talented team in the NFL...hmmmm.

 

Ohh but according to you Bill Walsh and the WCO didn't account for anything, it was all Joe Montana. You even chastised Red because he stated he was in a great system, now you say Steve Young went to a great team to become great, it wasn't the coaching, just the team. Can't have it both ways, although you try.

He was the real deal, not some product of a gameplan or a great coach.

 

Favre was a 2nd round draft pick and traded for a first round draft pick prior to his 2nd season...so where do you get he was a bench warming loser? I dont even know why I ask you because history shows you are incapable of a rational thought or post...I mean you are the same guy that said if Montana was drafted by a lousy team (which he was) then he would have been nothing...

His first ever pass in the NFL in Atlanta was intercepted and returned for a TD.

 

In Atlanta, Favre had become a whipping boy for flamboyant coach Jerry Glanville, who never approved of Herock's decision to draft him and once said during an exhibition game that it would take a plane crash for him to put Favre into the game. The more Glanville ignored the wild and unbridled Favre, the more Favre rebelled.

 

According to an Atlanta Journal-Constitution story, Glanville had four rules: 1) Be on time. 2) Prepare all week to play. 3) Spill your guts on the field. 4) Only accept victory.

 

"If he'd have got to 3 and 4, he'd have been fine," Glanville once told the paper. "But you had to get past 1 and 2."

 

Favre's behavior was immature and unprofessional. He stayed out late, he showed up late and fell asleep in meetings. As he once said, "I'm sure I didn't help my cause by trying to drink up Atlanta."

 

 

So yea, I'd say at 3rd string he was a bench warming loser. I suppose you will say that Mike Holmgren and the WCO had no influence on Brett Favre either, he did it all on his own... like Joe Montana.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20070929132210/....aspx?id=358097

 

John Elway won SB's because Shannahan brought zone blocking and created the best rushing scheme the league had seen and paired that with a HOF QB...Terell Davis was the difference maker in getting Elway over the hump...

 

It was still the WCO that Elway was in under Mike Shanahan, the coach and the system made a difference. Although I'm surprised your not stating Elway did it all on his own.

The rest of your post is so full of gibberish that I am not even going to bother responding to it all...I mean you are actually calling GB a WCO...geezus, your posts get more worthless every time I see you. GB has one of the biggest deep passing games in the NFL and constantly attacks in the mid range and long passing zones and is not a WCO

 

Mike McCarthy is a WCO offensive disciple and although it isn't the exact same system Montana and Favre ran it is still the same philosophy, they pass to set up the run.

I'm happy you don't like my posts...

 

You have to be the biggest that posts in this forum. If others don't agree with you then you call them names and chastise them for it.

 

I'm just very happy I don't know you in RL, and feel bad for the people who do.

[Alphadawg7]

I'm happy you don't like my posts...

 

You have to be the biggest that posts in this forum. If others don't agree with you then you call them names and chastise them for it.

 

I'm just very happy I don't know you in RL, and feel bad for the people who do.

 

This from the guy who attacks me personally in just about every thread he can...please, spare me the mello dramatics as I treat you the same as you treat me and others...

 

Your replies to the points I posted again are comical and you totally grasping at air. My favorite thing though is how you claim I am crediting it all to Joe and disregarding the system...while you literally comepletly disregard Joe (see your famous quote in my signature) over and over again in multiple threads and make it ONLY about the system...same with Steve Young. It was a great offensive system, but that doesnt change that Joe Montana is literally one of the 3 best QB's to ever play the game who won a SB after taking over a worthless losing franchise in just his 3rd year before he had all the other famed 49ers like Jerry Rice even on the team.

 

You make yourself out to be a fool with the gibberish you post like that, so don't get mad when it gets pointed out.

[thewildrabbit]

This from the guy who attacks me personally in just about every thread he can...please, spare me the mello dramatics as I treat you the same as you treat me and others...

 

Your replies to the points I posted again are comical and you totally grasping at air. My favorite thing though is how you claim I am crediting it all to Joe and disregarding the system...while you literally comepletly disregard Joe (see your famous quote in my signature) over and over again in multiple threads and make it ONLY about the system...same with Steve Young. It was a great offensive system, but that doesnt change that Joe Montana is literally one of the 3 best QB's to ever play the game who won a SB after taking over a worthless losing franchise in just his 3rd year before he had all the other famed 49ers like Jerry Rice even on the team.

 

You make yourself out to be a fool with the gibberish you post like that, so don't get mad when it gets pointed out.

I'm not getting mad at all, it is this kind of mentality that makes me laugh when I read your posts. I completely discredit everything you posted about my post and in your narrow minded view you still feel I put down your fav QB so I must be a fool.

 

If you can ever actually read a post and grasp everything that is stated in it you would find that I have never disregarded Joe Montana. All I have ever stated is that I think he is one of the best ever QB's to play the game, BUT!, that had he gone to a poor team with bad coaches, bad system he would have failed just like Steve Young did at Tampa Bay for two years. A concept you agree with ...and at the same time can't comprehend because it is Joe Montana

[Alphadawg7]

I'm not getting mad at all, it is this kind of mentality that makes me laugh when I read your posts. I completely discredit everything you posted about my post and in your narrow minded view you still feel I put down your fav QB so I must be a fool.

 

If you can ever actually read a post and grasp everything that is stated in it you would find that I have never disregarded Joe Montana. All I have ever stated is that I think he is one of the best ever QB's to play the game, BUT!, that had he gone to a poor team with bad coaches, bad system he would have failed just like Steve Young did at Tampa Bay for two years. A concept you agree with ...and at the same time can't comprehend because it is Joe Montana

 

Except you keep avoiding that Montanna did go to one of those bad teams...it just so happens once he arrived and became the starter in his second season the team INSTANTLY vastly improved, something you continue and always have ignored...but keep trying.

[Guest dog14787]

No problem, Dog! We're on opposite sides of the fence, but still Bills fans. I'd have a beer (or 10) with you anytime.

 

(Edit) Can we invite DarthIce, too?

 

 

Same here buddy and sure invite DarthIce, why not,

[thewildrabbit]

Except you keep avoiding that Montanna did go to one of those bad teams...it just so happens once he arrived and became the starter in his second season the team INSTANTLY vastly improved, something you continue and always have ignored...but keep trying.

I can recall watching the 1980 Buffalo Bills playing the 49ers at Candlestick the last reg game of the season in a rainy muddy mess and they beat them 18-13. The Bills went 11-5 that season and were a pretty decent team under HC Chuck Knox. Joe M played pretty well in that game and I remember thinking this 49er team could be really good if they only had a decent secondary.

 

The very next draft the 49ers drafted #1 pick DB Ronnie Lott- #2 pick DB Eric Wright-#3 pick DB Carlton Williamson- #5 pick DB Lynn Thomas. Needless to say he could have stopped drafting DB's after he got Ronnie Lott. The point is Walsh realized his secondary stunk and rebuilt it. The Niners also added Jack"hacksaw" Reynolds, and Fred Dean to the defense, Dwight Hicks had a more prominent role. Dean, Hicks and Lott all made the pro bowl.

That 49er defense went from a MINUS -10.4 to a PLUS +23 turnover ratio from 80 to 81. So that elite 1981 SF 49er team wasn't just one guy or just the offense.

 

Montana played 7 games in 1980 after taking over from Steve DeBerg. The 49ers went 6-10 in 1980 and didn't INSTANTLY vastly improve, his record was 2-5.

It was the perfect match between coach and players and systems that elevated that 49er team. Yea, Joe M had some great comeback games in 81 and played great, but it was the result of the ENTIRE TEAM getting good.

[ganesh]

I think the problem here is checking down and throwing a short pass. Because of the WCO, the offense was designed to throw a ton of short passes. In the CFO (cluster f#ck offense), it seems that most of our routes were designed to be around 10 yards or more and Trent would just check down to something shorter. That's why I started to lose my faith in TE. sometimes, you just gotta take a shot and he is very slow to do so.

 

It helps if you have a decent OL that will give you the time to make your first progression. It is all about confidence and swagger, things that are missing right now with Edwards...He has never been the same since that hit in Arizona

[Alphadawg7]

I can recall watching the 1980 Buffalo Bills playing the 49ers at Candlestick the last reg game of the season in a rainy muddy mess and they beat them 18-13. The Bills went 11-5 that season and were a pretty decent team under HC Chuck Knox. Joe M played pretty well in that game and I remember thinking this 49er team could be really good if they only had a decent secondary.

 

The very next draft the 49ers drafted #1 pick DB Ronnie Lott- #2 pick DB Eric Wright-#3 pick DB Carlton Williamson- #5 pick DB Lynn Thomas. Needless to say he could have stopped drafting DB's after he got Ronnie Lott. The point is Walsh realized his secondary stunk and rebuilt it. The Niners also added Jack"hacksaw" Reynolds, and Fred Dean to the defense, Dwight Hicks had a more prominent role. Dean, Hicks and Lott all made the pro bowl.

That 49er defense went from a MINUS -10.4 to a PLUS +23 turnover ratio from 80 to 81. So that elite 1981 SF 49er team wasn't just one guy or just the offense.

 

Montana played 7 games in 1980 after taking over from Steve DeBerg. The 49ers went 6-10 in 1980 and didn't INSTANTLY vastly improve, his record was 2-5.

It was the perfect match between coach and players and systems that elevated that 49er team. Yea, Joe M had some great comeback games in 81 and played great, but it was the result of the ENTIRE TEAM getting good.

 

I cant even respond to this nonsense any more...we get it...you think Joe Montana was only good because of the system...its not even worth responding to that anymore because its so stupid and isnt worth the time. You might be the only genius on Earth that thinks Joe Montana was only a systems QB...lmao

[transient]

It was the perfect match between coach and player and system that elevated that 49er team.

 

After reading through this thread, this is the point that seems to have been cast aside til now. I don't think the WCO as it is known develops the way it did if it didn't start with a QB and coach on the same page. Walsh recognizes Montana's incredible ability to anticipate the game and designs an offense around a player's instincts. As a hockey fan, it's like listening to an elite goal scorer or goalie talk about knowing where everyone is on the ice, and anticipating what will happen three steps ahead. Montana, more than anything, had a composure on the field that was unrivaled, and knew where to put the ball by the flow of the play, seemingly without looking. His head for the game is what makes him stand out, and it never seemed forced. The creation of that offense was as much a product of Montana's intangibles as it was Walsh's game planning.

 

IMO, the Bills' current QB situation is this: despite the last few seasons, who knows what you have in Edwards. Maybe with a legitimate NFL offensive scheme he can grow as a player, maybe not. Brohm and Brown are unknowns with potential. Fitz is Fitz. I'd rather see them cut Fitz and keep the other three. If Edwards can't cut it, handing the reins to Fitz proves nothing, cuz, and I think the consensus supports this, he's not going to be your franchise QB. Who cares if you win 1-2 more games this year, it won't help you in the long run. If neither Edwards nor Brohm turns out to be the man, then you draft him next year and hopefully more of the pieces are in place at that time to allow him to grow as the franchise QB ala Flacco, Ryan, Roethlisberger, etc. (I deliberately left out the Sanchize, cuz I just don't see it)

[thewildrabbit]

I cant even respond to this nonsense any more...we get it...you think Joe Montana was only good because of the system...its not even worth responding to that anymore because its so stupid and isnt worth the time. You might be the only genius on Earth that thinks Joe Montana was only a systems QB...lmao

 

I doubt I have ever come across another person In as much denial as you are... at every aspect of every post of mine in this thread I prove you wrong and show that don't know what your talking about and your response is..

 

I cant even respond to this nonsense any more...we get it...

No, YOU in fact don't get it!

 

I just proved Montana didn't INSTANTLY vastly improve the 1980 49ers and you disregard it. he went 2-5 and the team went 6-10 his first year.

 

I just proved that Montana wasn't the only player on that 1981 team who played great, 3 defensive players made the pro bowl and the turnover ratio swung over 30 points in one year. I acknowledge that although Joe M had a great year, so did that 49er defense.

 

 

You can't respond because you were proven wrong and can't accept it...

[mpl6876]

I doubt I have ever come across another person In as much denial as you are... at every aspect of every post of mine in this thread I prove you wrong and show that don't know what your talking about and your response is..

 

No, YOU in fact don't get it!

 

I just proved Montana didn't INSTANTLY vastly improve the 1980 49ers and you disregard it. he went 2-5 and the team went 6-10 his first year.

 

I just proved that Montana wasn't the only player on that 1981 team who played great, 3 defensive players made the pro bowl and the turnover ratio swung over 30 points in one year. I acknowledge that although Joe M had a great year, so did that 49er defense.

 

 

You can't respond because you were proven wrong and can't accept it...

 

Alpha dog I usually like your posts but that one in question had a lot of inaccurate info. Rabbit, you could have been nicer though. So both of you are partly to blame.

 

Lets talk football guys... GO Bills

[grelit]

This whole thread is a total insult to the great Joe Montana....PEOPLE ARE STUPID TO COMPARE HIM TO TRENT EDWARDS? This is getting ridiculous, and I am really worried about the mental stability of the people that make this comparison.

[Alphadawg7]

I doubt I have ever come across another person In as much denial as you are... at every aspect of every post of mine in this thread I prove you wrong and show that don't know what your talking about and your response is..

 

No, YOU in fact don't get it!

 

I just proved Montana didn't INSTANTLY vastly improve the 1980 49ers and you disregard it. he went 2-5 and the team went 6-10 his first year.

 

I just proved that Montana wasn't the only player on that 1981 team who played great, 3 defensive players made the pro bowl and the turnover ratio swung over 30 points in one year. I acknowledge that although Joe M had a great year, so did that 49er defense.

 

 

You can't respond because you were proven wrong and can't accept it...

 

If you watched the 49ers, he vastly improved that team and fast...case closed...there is nothing to debate. I mean taking a team to the SB, winning it, being MVP and all in his 3rd season is not fast? Geezus Rabbit...

 

That defense didnt allow Joe to accumulate those numbers, Joes incredible talent as a QB did. You want to find every possible thing you can to devalue Joes impact on that team and I bet you barely saw any of his games. No one is debating the revolutionary offense Walsh created, but for that offense to work you need a great QB who can execute it, just like any other offense.

 

I watched dam near every 49er game through 1994 either on TV or live at the games. My dad was a massive 49er fan (no bothering him during the game unless it had to do with the game kind of fan) and I grew up watching just about every game he ever played with him until my dad was killed in 1994. I finished watching that season rooting for the 49ers for the first time ever, and they did go on to win the SB after he died that year with Young at the helm.

 

In fact, I have still have many games on VHS that I taped which I used to watch over and over again of him because I wanted to be a QB (unfortunately I still have the Bills SB losses on VHS too...ouch) and he was the one I wanted to emulate. My size led me to play LB instead, but I still studied Joe and later Kelly's hurry up offense when I had become a Bills fan in the late 80's.

 

So, not only did I watch his games, some several times, I also couldnt stand the 49ers and rooted against them. Yet, I still couldnt help but be blown away about how great he was and can openly admit he was the best of his generation and one of the 3 best ever (and you can easily argue as the best ever). Maybe you need to search the net and see if you kind find some highlights of how pin point accurate he was, how great his timing was, how smart he was, how incredible his pocket presence was, how he saw the field better than anyone I had ever seen...the guy is one of the greatest period...end of story.

[thewildrabbit]

If you watched the 49ers, he vastly improved that team and fast...case closed...there is nothing to debate. I mean taking a team to the SB, winning it, being MVP and all in his 3rd season is not fast? Geezus Rabbit...

No, in fact he didn't...it took him 3 years to develop, about what Bill Walsh has stated it takes 3-4 years for a QB to develop in the NFL. So contrary to your belief he didn't get that team to the SB alone, he did it with a team around him and a dominate defense.

 

That defense didnt allow Joe to accumulate those numbers, Joes incredible talent as a QB did. You want to find every possible thing you can to devalue Joes impact on that team and I bet you barely saw any of his games. No one is debating the revolutionary offense Walsh created, but for that offense to work you need a great QB who can execute it, just like any other offense.

 

You keep stating I devalue Joe M, show me one freaking time where I state anything even remotely bad about him. Two things I have ever stated and I still stand behind them! #1 he would have failed just like Steve Young did at TB had he gone to a horrid team like that. #2 he failed at KC to take them to a SB

 

I watched dam near every 49er game through 1994 either on TV or live at the games. My dad was a massive 49er fan (no bothering him during the game unless it had to do with the game kind of fan) and I grew up watching just about every game he ever played with him until my dad was killed in 1994. I finished watching that season rooting for the 49ers for the first time ever, and they did go on to win the SB after he died that year with Young at the helm.

 

In fact, I have still have many games on VHS that I taped which I used to watch over and over again of him because I wanted to be a QB (unfortunately I still have the Bills SB losses on VHS too...ouch) and he was the one I wanted to emulate. My size led me to play LB instead, but I still studied Joe and later Kelly's hurry up offense when I had become a Bills fan in the late 80's.

 

So, not only did I watch his games, some several times, I also couldnt stand the 49ers and rooted against them. Yet, I still couldnt help but be blown away about how great he was and can openly admit he was the best of his generation and one of the 3 best ever (and you can easily argue as the best ever). Maybe you need to search the net and see if you kind find some highlights of how pin point accurate he was, how great his timing was, how smart he was, how incredible his pocket presence was, how he saw the field better than anyone I had ever seen...the guy is one of the greatest period...end of story.

I have never denied Joe M wasn't a great QB, although you seem to think I'm stating that by saying he would have failed with a bad team.

 

You can put Joe M on as high a pedestal as you want and it still doesn't alter the fact that it took 3 years for him to develop in the same system with the same coaches, so it didn't happen INSTANTLY like you claim in previous posts in this thread.

 

Try and grasp the 30+ point differential between the 1980 team and the 1981 team, look at the teams with the best records every year and they usually have a very positive turnover ratio, conversely the losing teams have a negative ratio. That 1981 49er team wasn't great because of only Joe Montana, it was great because of the coaching, the players on the offense and defense and the play of the ENTIRE TEAM. Something you say you understand but then deny is the TEAM CONCEPT, the 81 49ers had a great defense, they were #1 in the NFL in turnovers and #2 overall in defense.

 

 

So, if Joe M was such a great one man show and could do it all by himself, wth happened when he was traded to KC in 93-94? That KC team was already a playoff team under Marty S and just needed a top QB to get them to the SB, Joe Montana FAILED in KC. He went 11-5 & 9-7 kinda poor showing for the one man team and greatest ever. The Chiefs were (11-5 in 1990)-(10-6 in 1991)-(10-6 in 1992)

 

Where to begin...lets see, Steve Young went from the least talented (and one of the least talented teams ever in the NFL) in football where he played as a rookie and 2nd year QB to the most talented team in the NFL...hmmmm

Like Jim Kelly, Steve Young played in the USFL and had some decent experience like Kelly did with a pro style offense. Even with that USFL experience behind him he went to a bad team and failed, so he wasn't really a rookie when he entered the NFL.

All I have ever stated is that I think he is one of the best ever QB's to play the game, BUT!, that had he gone to a poor team with bad coaches, bad system he would have failed just like Steve Young did at Tampa Bay for two years. A concept you agree with ...and at the same time can't comprehend because it is Joe Montana

 

You still want to argue that Joe Montana could have gone to any team and took them to a SB... but then he went to an already playoff team in Kansas City and couldn't get them to a SB, so I'll say it again, HE FAILED in KC for whatever reason, END OF STORY!

 

So just keep that statement of mine about ole Joe M, it shows the mentality you have

[The Dean]

Let's get back to the basics here. The original question posed in this thread was. "Didn't Joe Montana win a superbowl by being a "captain checkdown".

 

Let's excuse the lack of a question mark at the end of that obvious question to get to the real answer:

 

No. No he did not. Montana wasn't "Captain Checkdown", nor anything close to it.

 

The intention of the thread seems to be to compare the skills of Montana and Trent Edwards and suggest Trent, under the right circumstances, can lead the Bills to the Super Bowl.

 

Comparing Trent to Joe was pretty freakin' stupid when Trent flashed a bit of skill early in his career. It is downright moronic now. Let's just end this particular chunk of idiocy now. What do you say?