For all you Ralph haters

[San Jose Bills Fan]

i think you picked the low hanging fruit. i've owned a small business for many years...competitors faced with the same challenges are everywhere..some have failed and a some have done better financially. I like to think that our product quality has been near the top and to me that's just as important as the financial success. they are synergistic. ultimately, I'm responsible for making it happen or not, in all circumstances, snow or no snow, recession or boom times..just as is wilson but he's consistently put out a very poor product. I think he can be blamed for that.

This is inarguable.

 

However you feel about Ralph Wilson, the performance of the team over half a century speaks for itself.

 

The Bills are 24th among 32 teams in all-time winning percentage. If they were just an average team, they would be 16th.

 

The Bills have been a poorly run organization that has benefitted from the meteoric rise in popularity of the NFL.

 

If you take away the Super Bowl years which appear to be a historical aberration, the Bills have perennially been one of the worst "products" in the NFL.

 

It really can't be argued.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

This is inarguable.

 

However you feel about Ralph Wilson, the performance of the team over half a century speaks for itself.

 

The Bills are 24th among 32 teams in all-time winning percentage. If they were just an average team, they would be 16th.

 

The Bills have been a poorly run organization that has benefitted from the meteoric rise in popularity of the NFL.

 

If you take away the Super Bowl years which appear to be a historical aberration, the Bills have perennially been one of the worst "products" in the NFL.

 

It really can't be argued.

 

Sweet post. Men lie, wome lie, numbers don't.

[stuckincincy]

This is inarguable.

 

However you feel about Ralph Wilson, the performance of the team over half a century speaks for itself.

 

The Bills are 24th among 32 teams in all-time winning percentage. If they were just an average team, they would be 16th.

 

The Bills have been a poorly run organization that has benefited from the meteoric rise in popularity of the NFL.

 

If you take away the Super Bowl years which appear to be a historical aberration, the Bills have perennially been one of the worst "products" in the NFL.

 

It really can't be argued.

 

Ownership matters a lot.

 

See the 1968 expansion B'gals (things were different then. Unlike JAX and CAR, the players forked over were cast-offs and retirees. IIRC, BUF offered up the retired Cookie Gilchrist).

 

Owner Paul Brown eventually forged a decent club. When his son, Mike took over, CIN wandered in the desert for more than a decade.

[Delete This Account]

i think you picked the low hanging fruit. i've owned a small business for many years...competitors faced with the same challenges are everywhere..some have failed and a some have done better financially. I like to think that our product quality has been near the top and to me that's just as important as the financial success. they are synergistic. ultimately, I'm responsible for making it happen or not, in all circumstances, snow or no snow, recession or boom times..just as is wilson but he's consistently put out a very poor product. I think he can be blamed for that.

i'm not saying he's not open to criticism.

my trouble with the post was what i outlined.

bringing up miami, was faulty. and to say that polian left and drafted Peyton Manning, well, duh.

someone was going to draft Peyton Manning, who would put that franchise in a position to turn itself around.

 

my problem is if Polian was still in Buffalo, i don't think the team would've been in a position to draft Manning. i mean, c'mon.

 

jw

[transient]

This is inarguable.

 

However you feel about Ralph Wilson, the performance of the team over half a century speaks for itself.

 

The Bills are 24th among 32 teams in all-time winning percentage. If they were just an average team, they would be 16th.

 

The Bills have been a poorly run organization that has benefitted from the meteoric rise in popularity of the NFL.

 

If you take away the Super Bowl years which appear to be a historical aberration, the Bills have perennially been one of the worst "products" in the NFL.

 

It really can't be argued.

 

One of the things that often gets overlooked about the Super Bowl years is that there was a huge transition in how teams operated due to the establishment of the salary cap and the creation of free agency. When the Bills were starting their run, they did it through player development. People point to our offensive line and how good it was and forget that a number of those players were groomed for 3-5 seasons before starting. Our success in the 90s is largely due to identification and DEVELOPMENT of talent. I feel like a number of consistently good teams of that era that operated similarly, ie 49ers, have been slower to adapt to the current environment. To succeed today you need to recognize talent that can start now in your system, and you need to be able to address FA departures a season or two before they become inevitable. NE* has done that well and has set the benchmark for it (though I think they're slipping).

 

Ralph's biggest issue post Polian/Butler is that he has not brought in people with a coherent vision of what they want to build. He brought in Donahoe, who was widely considered the best GM candidate available at the time, and it blew up in his face. He brought in two up and coming coaches who were on everyone's radar and it failed (though with the salary cap mess, Williams was more of a sacrificial lamb). He tried to stick with Jauron in the interest of maintaining some continuity to build on, and Jauron changed up his whole offensive staff/OL on the eve of the season after trying to institute a no huddle offense that the team wasn't set up to run. I can't speak to the 70s and early 80s, but the 2000s have been the result of personnel decisions that no one could have expected to turn out as poorly as they did. Let's hope Nix and Gailey buck this trend.

[JohnC]

i'm not saying he's not open to criticism.

my trouble with the post was what i outlined.

bringing up miami, was faulty. and to say that polian left and drafted Peyton Manning, well, duh.

someone was going to draft Peyton Manning, who would put that franchise in a position to turn itself around.

 

my problem is if Polian was still in Buffalo, i don't think the team would've been in a position to draft Manning. i mean, c'mon.

 

jw

 

Whether he was in position to draft Manning or anyone else if Polian was still associated with Buffalo he would have fielded a competitive team. Do you think the Bills would have not have identified another franchise qb after the departure of Kelly as we haven't been able to do since his departure? Of course not. Do you think the Bills would have such an inept OL for such a long time under Polian's stewardship? Of course not. Do you think Bill Polian would have hired such a mediocre HC as Jauron if he was still the GM? Of course not.

 

The Bills have not only been bad but they have been a very irrelevant franchise in the NFL for a very long time. If you don't believe that Ralph Wilson is the primary reason for the franchise's mediocrity then you are missing the obvious one constant in this very troubled franchise: His ownership.

[Delete This Account]

Whether he was in position to draft Manning or anyone else if Polian was still associated with Buffalo he would have fielded a competitive team. Do you think the Bills would have not have identified another franchise qb after the departure of Kelly as we haven't been able to do since his departure? Of course not. Do you think the Bills would have such an inept OL for such a long time under Polian's stewardship? Of course not. Do you think Bill Polian would have hired such a mediocre HC as Jauron if he was still the GM? Of course not.

 

The Bills have not only been bad but they have been a very irrelevant franchise in the NFL for a very long time. If you don't believe that Ralph Wilson is the primary reason for the franchise's mediocrity then you are missing the obvious one constant in this very troubled franchise: His ownership.

in fear of repeating myself:

let me repeat myself

 

jw

 

ADD: i am sticking to my criticism with the poster, whose comments i criticized. i will not get into a debate over hypothetics and other things. my issue was with the poster and his obtuse points.

[RealityCheck]

what was dick jauron's great crime? he seems almost universally hated here because he was a bad, losing coach. what's so different about a losing owner?

In response I did not know that Jauron committed a crime. Second, I don't hate the man for being a bad head coach. Third, if you think about I am sure that you will find differences between owners and coaches. To voluntarily spend time and money endorsing a team where the owner is truly hated by the individual speaks more on the foolishness of the fan.

[JohnC]

in fear of repeating myself:

let me repeat myself

 

jw

 

ADD: i am sticking to my criticism with the poster, whose comments i criticized. i will not get into a debate over hypothetics and other things. my issue was with the poster and his obtuse points.

 

There were some points that the poster made which were not valid. But his generic point that the Bills have been a very flawed franchise primarily due to the caliber of ownership is spot on. In my view it is far from being hypothetical that the Bills have been a troubled franchise for an inordinate amout of time due to the owner. That is the reality, the obvious reality that the prior poster was making.

[Kelly the Dog]

There were some points that the poster made which were not valid. But his generic point that the Bills have been a very flawed franchise primarily due to the caliber of ownership is spot on. In my view it is far from being hypothetical that the Bills have been a troubled franchise for an inordinate amout of time due to the owner. That is the reality, the obvious reality that the prior poster was making.

I think the reality is that Ralph Wilson is both a truly great and deeply flawed owner.

 

There is zero question it's not all about money because if he wanted more money he would have moved the team for hundreds of millions of more money.

 

There is also zero question that he has made deeply suspicious monetary decisions over the decades, often under-paying and sometimes over-paying.

 

He has made, IMO, way more bad decisions than good ones on who he wants to run and coach this team. BUT, and it's a huge but, his dedication to Buffalo and its small market has preserved its existence. That cannot be over-estimated let alone discounted.

 

I'd imagine almost every other owner with no real ties to Buffalo would have moved this team at some point. I'd imagine almost every other owner even with ties to Buffalo would have sold it. The chances of finding a family like the Rooneys is slight. So with Ralph, you have to take the good with the bad.

 

For me, the fact he kept them and will keep them in Buffalo far outweighs the poor decisions and meddling, so I love the guy even though he is who he is. I find no fault in criticizing him, and I do it all the time myself. But I also think that if given the choice of Ralph or ANYONE ELSE outside of The Rooney family, Buffalo struck gold.

[Delete This Account]

There were some points that the poster made which were not valid. But his generic point that the Bills have been a very flawed franchise primarily due to the caliber of ownership is spot on. In my view it is far from being hypothetical that the Bills have been a troubled franchise for an inordinate amout of time due to the owner. That is the reality, the obvious reality that the prior poster was making.

that's fine. and that's your right, JohnC.

i learned last year not to get drawn in too far into discussions regarding Ralph Wilson, because the points i make about him seem to be taken out of context from what i'm actually trying to say.

there's a lot of blind passion raging against Mr. Wilson. and while he is open to criticism, i find that many seem to take it far too personally.

 

the trouble, in the end, is that Mr. Wilson's tenure as owner is a mixed bag. for those who don't like him, seem to overlook the fact that he's not relocated the franchise, and yet call him a money-grubber. for those who question his commitment to winning, well, that's somewhat open to debate based on my conversations with him. but i'll not get into that because that's an argument not worth fighting, and i'll leave people to their grudges (and i know i'm going to catch heat for that one).

 

in the end, if people don't like Mr. Wilson and want to send him a message, don't support the team. don't buy season tickets. Mr. Wilson is sensitive to the team's fans. and an empty Ralph Wilson Stadium would send a clear message. the fact that that's not happened leads me to believe that the fans of this team are overly loyal, blind or as apathetic as they claim Mr. Wilson to be.

 

jw

[erynthered]

I think the reality is that Ralph Wilson is both a truly great and deeply flawed owner.

 

There is zero question it's not all about money because if he wanted more money he would have moved the team for hundreds of millions of more money.

 

There is also zero question that he has made deeply suspicious monetary decisions over the decades, often under-paying and sometimes over-paying.

 

He has made, IMO, way more bad decisions than good ones on who he wants to run and coach this team. BUT, and it's a huge but, his dedication to Buffalo and its small market has preserved its existence. That cannot be over-estimated let alone discounted.

 

I'd imagine almost every other owner with no real ties to Buffalo would have moved this team at some point. I'd imagine almost every other owner even with ties to Buffalo would have sold it. The chances of finding a family like the Rooneys is slight. So with Ralph, you have to take the good with the bad.

 

For me, the fact he kept them and will keep them in Buffalo far outweighs the poor decisions and meddling, so I love the guy even though he is who he is. I find no fault in criticizing him, and I do it all the time myself. But I also think that if given the choice of Ralph or ANYONE ELSE outside of The Rooney family, Buffalo struck gold.

 

 

^^^^^What he said!

[dollarcoin]

3...Ralph fired Polian for a reason that anyone would get fired in any job....he was starting fights with other people in the organization...I dare anyone to try that...you'd have to be literally sucking off your boss to keep your job.

 

dummy

 

ok one guy is the sole reason for your organization's success, and without him you will return to irrelevancy forever

 

the other guy is a secretary. or a treasurer. w/e.

 

yes, when they have a fight, it's VERY CLEAR who they should fire

 

dummy

[dollarcoin]

Ralph Wilson's meddling with the team is well documented, and I am not trying to diminish the damage that he has done to his own team at times. However it's no ones place to demonize him for it. He has also done quite a few things right. Judging by how emotional and illogical many of these posters are I would think that the team would be far worse in their hands. If I was the owner we would be in big trouble too. The point is this is his team, he earned it and made tremendous sacrifices to do it. Could any of us on these boards pulled it off? Of course not because none of us have. Exploring hypotheticals is great for people who don't have to make decisions by any deadlines or accountability, you could just talk endlessly after the fact. Has RW made a lot of mistakes? Sure, too many in the pursuit of a championship. Is he a bad guy? No f****** way!

 

Wow what a moron.

 

Yes, that makes sense - pondering whether random people off the street would make a better owner.

 

Guess what? Random forum posters would not make good NFL quarterbacks either. Jamarcus Russel is a better QB than anyone posting on these boards. I suppose that means that no one should ever be able to criticize him, because he is better, right?

 

He's a lousy owner, always has been and the Bills are better off with him dead.

[birdog1960]

that's fine. and that's your right, JohnC.

i learned last year not to get drawn in too far into discussions regarding Ralph Wilson, because the points i make about him seem to be taken out of context from what i'm actually trying to say.

there's a lot of blind passion raging against Mr. Wilson. and while he is open to criticism, i find that many seem to take it far too personally.

 

the trouble, in the end, is that Mr. Wilson's tenure as owner is a mixed bag. for those who don't like him, seem to overlook the fact that he's not relocated the franchise, and yet call him a money-grubber. for those who question his commitment to winning, well, that's somewhat open to debate based on my conversations with him. but i'll not get into that because that's an argument not worth fighting, and i'll leave people to their grudges (and i know i'm going to catch heat for that one).

 

in the end, if people don't like Mr. Wilson and want to send him a message, don't support the team. don't buy season tickets. Mr. Wilson is sensitive to the team's fans. and an empty Ralph Wilson Stadium would send a clear message. the fact that that's not happened leads me to believe that the fans of this team are overly loyal, blind or as apathetic as they claim Mr. Wilson to be.

 

jw

i always appreciate your reasoned, thoughtful, calm arguments. besides over loyalty (which i'm guilty of for nostalgic reasons), blindness and apathy, there is the fact that it's almost the only show in town. When there's one choice and it's not a good one, that's a bad situation. I don't knowingly put any money in rw's pocket and wish others wouldn't either but that's an unrealistic expectation.

[yungmack]

The one word I think sums up the Bills over their half-century of existence is "erratic." There have been some good eras, some phenomenally great eras, and a whole lot of mediocrity. Out of all the head coaches in 50 years, only three (I believe) had a winning record: Saban, Knox and Levy. The team also historically seems to have alternated between spending money on players and keeping them around, with sudden attacks of miserliness and roster turnover. And throughout this history, there is only one constant, only one person whose been there for the whole thing: Ralph Wilson. I can't see how he cannot be held responsible for the Bills institutional "DNA," for the good times as well as the bad.

 

That said, I don't think Wilson has been a particularly bad owner, especially when compared with the other owners in the NFL. I've been around long enough to remember when the Pats, Jets, Eagles, Steelers, Niners, Bears, Cards, Skins, Saints, Bucs and Broncos were much more screwed up than the Bills. The Cowboys and Dolphins have recently gone through a bad patch. Even right now, the Bears, Rams, Raiders, Lions, Jags, Bengals, Falcons, Broncos, Skins, Eagles and several others are either perennially a mess or maybe stabilizing and improving (we'll see...I think the jury's still out on the Skins, Lions and Falcons).

 

There are a handful of teams who are elite franchises (my definition would be stability, consistency, always finishing in the top third of the league, and doing so for ten years or more) which would include the Steelers, Pats, Cowboys. Other than those few, the rest of the league is a constant churn, with most of them in a constant state of rebuilding or "looking for that one missing piece" that will take them to the Super Bowl.

 

What all those teams I mentioned had in common over the years was poor to mediocre ownership. As an example of good ownership, the Steelers and Niners only became dominant under new owners (Dan Rooney, Jr., and Eddie DeBartolo). I don't think it's a coincidence that the Chiefs, who were a premiere franchise for decades, really went into decline with Lamar Hunt's illness and subsequent death.

 

So, in the end, we have the owner we have, love him or hate him. There's just enough success in the last 50 years to give us hope that we're on the threshold of another "golden era." And enough mediocrity to fear that whatever is being put together now could just as easily be torn apart for reasons we'll never completely understand.

[rjg1993]

1...he had a 2nd home in Miami...made sense for him to want to put it there

2...an undeserved reputation...Jauron was the 10th highest paid coach in the league last year after Ralph felt he proved himself with the 4-0 and 5-1 start which prompted Ralph to give him an extension....which Ralph is paying 2 1/2 years of without having the coach...as far as players, anyone who thinks he's been cheap in regards to them is quite frankly an idiot. He's thrown out a lot of money to players (Kelly was at one point the highest paid player in the league if I'm not mistaken), some deserving and some not.

3...Ralph fired Polian for a reason that anyone would get fired in any job....he was starting fights with other people in the organization...I dare anyone to try that...you'd have to be literally sucking off your boss to keep your job.

4...I find it amusing that everyone assumes there's no plan in place just because there's been no official statements saying there's one. Did it ever occur to anyone that he doesn't have to say squat about it? A rumor came out a few years ago that there was indeed a plan in place involving Mary Wilson and Jim Kelly...and quite frankly, the only thing that could derail that plan is if Kelly's major backer backs out of the deal, which would probably only happen if fan support drops. There's no reason to disbelieve the rumor, either. Like I said, Ralph doesn't have to tell us anything so the only way we'll find out for sure if it's true is after Ralph's passing.

i was going to say something similar, but you put it better than anyone else could have. some might be able to make the argument that Ralph is too involved in the team or not committed enough to winning, but these facts right here show how ridiculous it is to say Ralph is only about the money.

[rjg1993]

Last few months? Are you new in town, or have you been in a coma for the last decade?

 

to be completely honest, i am a diehard bills fan that has always lived in Michigan, so i dont hear too much about the bills. and ive only been on the TBD walls since August. i was brought up in a family that loved Wilson, so i always assumed thats how all bills fans are, so it surprised me when i joined the forums that so many are anti-ralph.

[Mr. WEO]

that's fine. and that's your right, JohnC.

i learned last year not to get drawn in too far into discussions regarding Ralph Wilson, because the points i make about him seem to be taken out of context from what i'm actually trying to say.

there's a lot of blind passion raging against Mr. Wilson. and while he is open to criticism, i find that many seem to take it far too personally.

 

the trouble, in the end, is that Mr. Wilson's tenure as owner is a mixed bag. for those who don't like him, seem to overlook the fact that he's not relocated the franchise, and yet call him a money-grubber. for those who question his commitment to winning, well, that's somewhat open to debate based on my conversations with him. but i'll not get into that because that's an argument not worth fighting, and i'll leave people to their grudges (and i know i'm going to catch heat for that one).

 

in the end, if people don't like Mr. Wilson and want to send him a message, don't support the team. don't buy season tickets. Mr. Wilson is sensitive to the team's fans. and an empty Ralph Wilson Stadium would send a clear message. the fact that that's not happened leads me to believe that the fans of this team are overly loyal, blind or as apathetic as they claim Mr. Wilson to be.

 

jw

 

Where was Ralph going to move the team to? Why would he do so if his situation in Buffalo is so financially favorable. Many people toss this out there as their main defense of Ralph--that he didn't sell/move the team. It's weak. Ralph knows how money is made.

[Delete This Account]

Wow what a moron.

 

Yes, that makes sense - pondering whether random people off the street would make a better owner.

 

Guess what? Random forum posters would not make good NFL quarterbacks either. Jamarcus Russel is a better QB than anyone posting on these boards. I suppose that means that no one should ever be able to criticize him, because he is better, right?

 

He's a lousy owner, always has been and the Bills are better off with him dead.

mean and way too rude, from someone who apparently has never made a mistake in his life.

there's always someone who plays that card, and i find it ugly, without any redeeming value and childish.

 

and, to top it off, you call people names. you have no shame.

 

jw