Toyota and More Problems: 部3

[stuckincincy]

Next time I'm out where I can safely try it, I'm going to get the car up to a decent clip and see if I can get it in to neutral. The manual says I should be able to, I know that much - the transmission has "neutral" and "engine braking" settings, and advises against using neutral simply because engine braking recovers power to the batteries. I'm also going to try holding the brake down while pressing the gas pedal, and see what happens (I know the engine will overcome the parking brake - no surprise there).

 

Doesn't preclude a software fault, of course. The engines, transmission, and braking system outside the parking brake are all controlled by the same widget, ultimately, so a fault in that could do damn near anything. It would have to be an awfully specific fault, though, to forbid shifting into neutral while accellerating to 95mph with the brakes engaged just enough to burn without grabbing.

 

Interesting point. If the brakes were clamping without enough force to stop the vehicle, the generated heat would begin to boil the brake fluid. I wonder if there's a fluid problem...certainly an avenue to investigate.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid

 

 

My last job was in the manufacture of motor additives - most products were for the provision of anti-wear and anti-oxidation to be blended with lubricants such as motor oils and greases. But some were for hydraulic fluids (and some were for the hide tanning industry - extremely dangerous compounds...organophosphates amenable to nefarious modification).

 

Just to toss it out there - I hope the Toyo engineers have given a nod to their chemists (doubtful - engineers consider themselves as deities and lift a leg on scientists) so they can turn their eyes in that direction, to see if something turns up, or to eliminate it as a possible problem.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Interesting point. If the brakes were clamping without enough force to stop the vehicle, the generated heat would begin to boil the brake fluid. I wonder if there's a fluid problem...certainly an avenue to investigate.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid

 

 

My last job was in the manufacture of motor additives - most products were for the provision of anti-wear and anti-oxidation to be blended with lubricants such as motor oils and greases. But some were for hydraulic fluids (and some were for the hide tanning industry - extremely dangerous compounds...organophosphates amenable to nefarious modification).

 

Just to toss it out there - I hope the Toyo engineers have given a nod to their chemists (doubtful - engineers consider themselves as deities and lift leg on scientists) so they can turn their eyes in that direction, to see if something turns up, or to eliminate it as a possible problem.

 

What about the types of rotors they use. Don't slotted and drilled rotors dispearse heat better? There is a whole range of quality here one can get.

 

Simple "brake priority" would work here if not applied in the computer already. You step on the brakes and that pedal takes priority over the faulty potentiometer (gas pedal).

 

 

 

Why no redundancy with Toyota... Unlike others... Say VW??

[mead107]

Rumor has it that the head of Toyota is driving a Kia.

[stuckincincy]

What about the types of rotors they use. Don't slotted and drilled rotors dispearse heat better? There is a whole range of quality here one can get.

 

Simple "brake priority" would work here if not applied in the computer already. You step on the brakes and that pedal takes priority over the faulty potentiometer (gas pedal).

 

 

 

Why no redundancy with Toyota... Unlike others... Say VW??

 

Yes - those rotors do, but not something needed in conventional usage. And the consumer would be dismayed at the replacement cost.

 

The "redundancy" systems add another layer of complexity - I think you are referring to the throttle shut-down upon pressing the brake pedal technology. I'm on the fence about such systems, with the added layer of complexity.

[John Adams]

Next time I'm out where I can safely try it, I'm going to get the car up to a decent clip and see if I can get it in to neutral. The manual says I should be able to, I know that much - the transmission has "neutral" and "engine braking" settings, and advises against using neutral simply because engine braking recovers power to the batteries. I'm also going to try holding the brake down while pressing the gas pedal, and see what happens (I know the engine will overcome the parking brake - no surprise there).

 

Doesn't preclude a software fault, of course. The engines, transmission, and braking system outside the parking brake are all controlled by the same widget, ultimately, so a fault in that could do damn near anything. It would have to be an awfully specific fault, though, to forbid shifting into neutral while accellerating to 95mph with the brakes engaged just enough to burn without grabbing.

 

I've done that engine braking thing in my wife's Prius. On the way to engaging engine braking, you put the car in neutral.

 

He couldn't get the car in neutral. He couldn't brake. He couldn't emergency brake. He couldn't engine brake. He couldn't turn the car off. He couldn't make the accelerator pop back up.

 

So everything...electrical and mechanical...went wrong all at the same time?

 

No doubt more to come.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Yes - those rotors do, but not something needed in conventional usage. And the consumer would be dismayed at the replacement cost.

 

The "redundancy" systems add another layer of complexity - I think you are referring to the throttle shut-down upon pressing the brake pedal technology. I'm on the fence about such systems, with the added layer of complexity.

 

I don't know... I am looking at a nice set for my 2006 Jeep Wrangler (45k on it)... Here they are, $299.00 for the front (pair)... I have drums on the rear.

 

Quadratec prices are high!

 

Australia Front 4x4 Rotors

 

DBA’s mid-series enhanced performance rotor features Thermal Stability Profiling for improved heat handling and Thermo-Graphic paint markings for effective heat monitoring. 4000 series rotors also incorporate the innovative Kangaroo Paw ventilation design, which runs cooler, stronger and outperforms traditional straight vane disc rotors by up to 20%. The unique 'XS' pattern is a premium (advanced) cross-drilled and slotted pattern, providing improved braking performance for street use only. 12 Month 12,000 Mile Limited Warranty.

On the Chrysler, I just turned my rotors... I the Jeep, I am 86in' the OEM ones and getting new... You can tell who's baby the Jeep is!

[Fezmid]

So everything...electrical and mechanical...went wrong all at the same time?

 

Or it's more ambulance chasing.

 

Sorry, I find it nearly impossible to believe that all of a sudden we're finding out that every Toyota vehicle ever made has problems with every sub-system... Sounds a lot like people making stuff up to try and "get rich quick." I have a very low opinion of most Americans, so maybe I'm being too cynical.

 

Let's see what the cop is corroborating. Obviously they are lying too. You guys are over the top. Again, this is not a harmless desktop application.

The cop wasn't actually in the car, so how does he know what the driver was actually doing...?

 

Like I said, I'm very cynical and the fact that everyone coming out saying their car is broken and is just a death trap all of a sudden just seems highly suspicious to me, especially considering I haven't seen any root cause from independent mechanics - just a lot of theory. Lots of people have looked at the cars and said that they seem fine...

[ExiledInIllinois]

I've done that engine braking thing in my wife's Prius. On the way to engaging engine braking, you put the car in neutral.

 

He couldn't get the car in neutral. He couldn't brake. He couldn't emergency brake. He couldn't engine brake. He couldn't turn the car off. He couldn't make the accelerator pop back up.

 

So everything...electrical and mechanical...went wrong all at the same time?

 

No doubt more to come.

 

Back to the subject... Why the problems with the gas pedal? This is not an application on somebody's laptop... Work around's are not acceptable. The gas pedal (potentiometer or whatever) has to comply 100% of the time for the life of the vehicle. What is so hard to understand?

 

I agree with what you said... That is not the point of all this. The point is not what to do in an event. Why is the gas pedal sticking? What you guys are doing is blaming the consumer. Toyota is at fault here. Kinda like my mother having her first child back in 1963 (my older sister)... She went to the hospital around 11-12:00 @ night in labor... The nurses were making a shift change and the leaving nurse crossed my mother's legs and said: "Just hold on honey, we are making a shift change."

[ExiledInIllinois]

Or it's more ambulance chasing.

 

Sorry, I find it nearly impossible to believe that all of a sudden we're finding out that every Toyota vehicle ever made has problems with every sub-system... Sounds a lot like people making stuff up to try and "get rich quick." I have a very low opinion of most Americans, so maybe I'm being too cynical.

 

 

The cop wasn't actually in the car, so how does he know what the driver was actually doing...?

 

Like I said, I'm very cynical and the fact that everyone coming out saying their car is broken and is just a death trap all of a sudden just seems highly suspicious to me, especially considering I haven't seen any root cause from independent mechanics - just a lot of theory. Lots of people have looked at the cars and said that they seem fine...

 

From what I heard, after stopping the car... The cop must have tried to operate the car??? I might be wrong here.

 

It is the GAS PEDAL... I also take BRAKE PRIORITY is not flashed into the computer. Everything is tied into one on these vehicles.

 

Now mix in ABS and whatever that braking system is that harnesses the energy. Who knows what is going on in these systems.

 

I would "ground" every car until they can figure out what is happening.

[John Adams]

Back to the subject... Why the problems with the gas pedal? This is not an application on somebody's laptop... Work around's are not acceptable. The gas pedal (potentiometer or whatever) has to comply 100% of the time for the life of the vehicle. What is so hard to understand?

 

I agree with what you said... That is not the point of all this. The point is not what to do in an event. Why is the gas pedal sticking? What you guys are doing is blaming the consumer. Toyota is at fault here. Kinda like my mother having her first child back in 1963 (my older sister)... She went to the hospital around 11-12:00 @ night in labor... The nurses were making a shift change and the leaving nurse crossed my mother's legs and said: "Just hold on honey, we are making a shift change."

 

My point is less about the gas problem that Toyota has acknowledged and more that this particular case smells fishy. It just seems hard to believe that 4-5 systems went haywire all at once. Not saying it's impossible...just seems odd is all.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Oh... Unless the car was off... The police cruiser was blocking the prius, stopping it too. Now if the car was on and they tried to move the crusier... What do you thing would happen if nobody was on the brake? I would take a cop would have to step on the brakes or keep the cruiser there.

 

Another thing... Why is Toyota being secretive about the "black boxes?" Let the info out and let's see if it is driver fault/making this **** up or something else.

[ExiledInIllinois]

My point is less about the gas problem that Toyota has acknowledged and more that this particular case smells fishy. It just seems hard to believe that 4-5 systems went haywire all at once. Not saying it's impossible...just seems odd is all.

 

Do you doubt that this driver's gas pedal stuck? Is that what you guys are saying. I heard the cop confirmed it even after the car stopped... The pedal was mashed to the floor and they (driver... AND i I assume the ChiP officer) could not pry it back.

 

Of course I may be all wrong and this a hoax... But come on... Now we have cops involved... Are they going to change their story??

 

You seen the photo with the crusier blocking the Prius' way???

[Fezmid]

Why is the gas pedal sticking? What you guys are doing is blaming the consumer. Toyota is at fault here.

I haven't actually seen a link confirming that gas pedals are sticking... There was the one case in California with the non-Toyota, improperly installed floormat that caused an issue. That's not directly Toyota's fault, but rather the individual dealer's fault (which indirectly is Toyota's fault, since they installed it).

 

But aside from that, I've seen no official links stating that gas pedals are accelerating cars. I keep asking for links in other threads on TSW, but nobody posts them....

 

And yes, I am blaming the consumer because it seems that most people have no personal responsibility anymore and like to blame all of their problems on other people/companies. Without proof, I don't believe them.

[Fezmid]

Do you doubt that this driver's gas pedal stuck? Is that what you guys are saying. I heard the cop confirmed it even after the car stopped... The pedal was mashed to the floor and they (driver... AND i I assume the ChiP officer) could not pry it back.

 

Of course I may be all wrong and this a hoax... But come on... Now we have cops involved... Are they going to change their story??

 

You seen the photo with the crusier blocking the Prius' way???

 

The article you linked to made no mention of the gas pedal being stuck and that the cop confirmed it. Do you have a better link that has some real details? (no offense or anything - I don't mind a friendly debate )

[ExiledInIllinois]

If these are simple potentometers used as gas pedals... I have seen this problem befuddle us at work on the electric golf carts we have. The only thing to do is replace them all together. The problem just happens again a year or so later. Of course they don't go fast and we have brakes and railings to stop them... So far, nobody has crashed. I did notice that Cushman has a new design to their recent potentiometer/pedal. And the carts are exposed to the elements, which makes the problem worse.

 

The only thing to do is replace them. When they do fail, they fail in the stopped stage. Part of the design???

[ExiledInIllinois]

The article you linked to made no mention of the gas pedal being stuck and that the cop confirmed it. Do you have a better link that has some real details? (no offense or anything - I don't mind a friendly debate )

 

I don't... That is why it is so iffy. I am also in doubt too. That other stuff I heard was on the radio.

 

I really wonder what gets lost in the translation with all this reporting!

 

I read they have "black boxes." I wonder how true that is???

 

I like friendly debate too... I just can't dismiss this through knowing first hand how our simple potentiometers give us fits at times on out electric carts.

 

Notice the link earlier I posted about potentiometer v. Halls setup... Seems like makers like VW get it right??

 

Whatever happened to a simple cable?

[stuckincincy]

Oh... Unless the car was off... The police cruiser was blocking the prius, stopping it too. Now if the car was on and they tried to move the crusier... What do you thing would happen if nobody was on the brake? I would take a cop would have to step on the brakes or keep the cruiser there.

 

Another thing... Why is Toyota being secretive about the "black boxes?" Let the info out and let's see if it is driver fault/making this **** up or something else.

 

The car gently rolled into the back of the cruiser.

 

Do you think Toyota launched some grand conspiracy, and now is backpeddling with a cover up? They most certainly did not want these problems to happen...Toyota has made da*n good vehicles for many years. It would be insanity.

 

I have no evidence, but I rely on my experience in auto manufacturing and technology - my guess is that most every manufacturer out there is aiding Toyota to get to the root of this problem, as well as world-wide suppliers.

 

I appreciate your auto opinions, EEI....but you might be stepping out of your technical depth re this issue.

[ExiledInIllinois]

The car gently rolled into the back of the cruiser.

 

Do you think Toyota launched some grand conspiracy, and now is backpeddling with a cover up? They most certainly did not want these problems to happen...Toyota has made da*n good vehicles for many years. It would be insanity.

 

I have no evidence, but I rely on my experience in auto manufacturing and technology - every manufacturer out there is aiding Toyota to get to the root of this problem, as well as world-wide suppliers.

 

I appreciate your auto opinions, EEI....but you might be stepping out of your technical depth re this issue.

 

Oh... You are right Cincy... I am totally stepping out of my tech realm. Yet, do you think Toyota wants to "ground" all vehicles?. It is almost looking like they should. That of course is silly and not practical. But man.. They better get this under wraps. Too much hit and miss with these pedals... What happens if it lingers on for the service life of the vehicle? We have seen reports where this MAY have been happening in with late 1990 models and the problem is rearing its head with in the last few years...

 

WOW! What a zillion dollar roulette game they got going. This can be the stuff that takes companies down. Just imagine if they have been putting iffy engineering into their products for a long time. How do you correct it and be 100% sure now those cars have left the line.

 

Call them all in and have a plan. Take a look, fix... OUCH!

[Fezmid]

I really wonder what gets lost in the translation with all this reporting!

That's a whole other issue with this country - everyone rushes to be "first" with their story, facts be damned. Even the post I made yesterday about the cops/SWAT team across the street from my office -- one report said it was the 3400 block, the other report said it was the 4400 block. Who needs facts???

[ExiledInIllinois]

That's a whole other issue with this country - everyone rushes to be "first" with their story, facts be damned. Even the post I made yesterday about the cops/SWAT team across the street from my office -- one report said it was the 3400 block, the other report said it was the 4400 block. Who needs facts???

 

Don't get me started. Right now Asian carp are swimming with feet of me! Hordes are infecting the lake. There is so much technical inaccuracy... They don't even have the towns right, the distances right, etc... etc..

 

I am not actually at work... And I should be sleeping before the kidlets come storming home!