graduation rates

[zazie]

This is a side topic that came up in the Mike Leach debate and I think deserves its own thread.

 

Why is it that some schools (Syracuse BB comes to mind but there are myriad examples), find it so acceptable to completely dump these kids once their useful playing careers are over for the school, and does not give them whatever tutoring or mentoring they need to actually graduate and become more able to be society contributors?

 

Even guys that have a chance a the pros (very very few of the overall student athlete population) should be pushed to get that degree after spending 4 or 5 tears on a campus generating positive cash-flow.

 

I have never understood why it is not more of a scandal.

 

To me that is the most telling thing about Leach and his ethics, that he makes his guys get that degree. To do hat he must be following up with them in the spring semester of their senior year (not to mentiopn all through their uni lives); he cares and does it right.

 

I think any program with a less than 70% graduation rate should be sanctioned by NCAA rule.

 

Thoughts?

[eSJayDee]

I think your 70% is WAY over-optimistic. Last #s I saw, which were from maybe a decade or so ago, <25% of NFL players have a degree. I'd be curious to know what the overall %age graduation rates for various colleges are & at what time kids "drop out".

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

I am with you, zazie.

 

If they are serious about education, colleges should be compelled to grant student-athletes scholarships that extend long enough to make up for the light loads they carry during their active playing semesters. In return, the NCAA should expect that programs make every effort to guarantee at least 70% graduation rates within six years. That is long enough to give them a legitimate chance, but also requires that students and colleges remember the importance of getting that degree. Too few college players actually make it in the pros to justify letting the vast majority waste the opportunity to get an education.

 

Without such a commitment, all we are left with is the disgusting spectacle of rich (mostly white) alumni of big football factories using (mostly though of course not exclusively African American) young men as disposable trash for their amusement, debasing the very notion of the student-athlete.

 

 

 

This is a side topic that came up in the Mike Leach debate and I think deserves its own thread.

 

Why is it that some schools (Syracuse BB comes to mind but there are myriad examples), find it so acceptable to completely dump these kids once their useful playing careers are over for the school, and does not give them whatever tutoring or mentoring they need to actually graduate and become more able to be society contributors?

 

Even guys that have a chance a the pros (very very few of the overall student athlete population) should be pushed to get that degree after spending 4 or 5 tears on a campus generating positive cash-flow.

 

I have never understood why it is not more of a scandal.

 

To me that is the most telling thing about Leach and his ethics, that he makes his guys get that degree. To do hat he must be following up with them in the spring semester of their senior year (not to mentiopn all through their uni lives); he cares and does it right.

 

I think any program with a less than 70% graduation rate should be sanctioned by NCAA rule.

 

Thoughts?

[apuszczalowski]

Sorry, but its up to the athlete to graduate. Most of them are given free rides to come play sports for the school. Its not the schools fault if they don't take advantage of the free ride. Most of these athletes are only at the school for the sport, and they wouldn't have made it in there without being a great athlete

[Mr. WEO]

Let's go a step further---make graduation mandatory for scholarship athletes. Tell them if they leave before they graduate, they repay their scholarship.

 

Have you guys considered that many of these guys aren't there to get an education? Or that, were it not for their athletic value, they would never qualified for admission (in the same way the non-athlete must be)?

 

Look, these guys get free college, local celebrity/adulation. Almost everyone else is paying and studying. Many are working jobs outside of the classroom (who's lowering their academic load?)---not hanging out in the film room, weight room, feasting at the training table, traveling the country...

 

College is an opportunity for the athlete: a tiny chance to make a living as an athlete, but an excellent chance to get a free education--if they want one.

 

It is what it is--let's not pretend it is otherwise.

[BillnutinHouston]

Let's go a step further---make graduation mandatory for scholarship athletes. Tell them if they leave before they graduate, they repay their scholarship.

 

Have you guys considered that many of these guys aren't there to get an education? Or that, were it not for their athletic value, they would never qualified for admission (in the same way the non-athlete must be)?

 

Look, these guys get free college, local celebrity/adulation. Almost everyone else is paying and studying. Many are working jobs outside of the classroom (who's lowering their academic load?)---not hanging out in the film room, weight room, feasting at the training table, traveling the country...

 

College is an opportunity for the athlete: a tiny chance to make a living as an athlete, but an excellent chance to get a free education--if they want one.

 

It is what it is--let's not pretend it is otherwise.

 

Well said. I am sick of our culture responding to weak-willed people by handing them more free stuff. Sadly, we are systematically devaluing the work ethic that made this country great, and encouraging more and more to become dependent on others. For some, creating mass dependence is a shrewd political strategy (cynical though it is), but I can't support it, in any form.

[zazie]

Let's go a step further---make graduation mandatory for scholarship athletes. Tell them if they leave before they graduate, they repay their scholarship.

 

Have you guys considered that many of these guys aren't there to get an education? Or that, were it not for their athletic value, they would never qualified for admission (in the same way the non-athlete must be)?

 

Look, these guys get free college, local celebrity/adulation. Almost everyone else is paying and studying. Many are working jobs outside of the classroom (who's lowering their academic load?)---not hanging out in the film room, weight room, feasting at the training table, traveling the country...

 

College is an opportunity for the athlete: a tiny chance to make a living as an athlete, but an excellent chance to get a free education--if they want one.

 

It is what it is--let's not pretend it is otherwise.

I guess what you see as a perk, free food and celebrity (but no pay, mind you, for generating huge tv deals and sellign out stadiums) I see as a problem with the system. Most of these kids do not see the value in the educational part of the experience because they are conditioned to see only the perks of being a superior athlete... that is until they are not quite superior enough to make it to the PAY level, and are left on the street with four years of sub-par-education (golf or bowling major???) under their belt and no degree or discernable skill to prepare them for the after-cush-athlete experience.

 

Free buffetts for 5 years do not a life make.

[zazie]

Well said. I am sick of our culture responding to weak-willed people by handing them more free stuff. Sadly, we are systematically devaluing the work ethic that made this country great, and encouraging more and more to become dependent on others. For some, creating mass dependence is a shrewd political strategy (cynical though it is), but I can't support it, in any form.

What? The unis are generating lots of cash; they give nothing to these athletes for 'free'. The reverse is true, the athletes risk life long injury and sell lots of stuff for the universities... for free.

[Las Vegas Calling...]

I am with you, zazie.

 

If they are serious about education, colleges should be compelled to grant student-athletes scholarships that extend long enough to make up for the light loads they carry during their active playing semesters. In return, the NCAA should expect that programs make every effort to guarantee at least 70% graduation rates within six years. That is long enough to give them a legitimate chance, but also requires that students and colleges remember the importance of getting that degree. Too few college players actually make it in the pros to justify letting the vast majority waste the opportunity to get an education.

 

Without such a commitment, all we are left with is the disgusting spectacle of rich (mostly white) alumni of big football factories using (mostly though of course not exclusively African American) young men as disposable trash for their amusement, debasing the very notion of the student-athlete.

Well thought out post. Injured players need to be given their money in order to obtain their degrees.

[BillnutinHouston]

What? The unis are generating lots of cash; they give nothing to these athletes for 'free'. The reverse is true, the athletes risk life long injury and sell lots of stuff for the universities... for free.

 

I was responding to the silly idea of making schools keep players on scholarship until they graduate. The idea that athletes on full scholarship get 4 years on campus, yet are owed even more if THEY fail to earn enough credits to graduate (while the paying students fork over $50-$100K over those same years and often go into years of debt), is absurd. If they are too dumb to take advantage of the opportunity, they get what they deserve.

 

How can anyone consider 4 years of free room, board, and all the classroom instruction you can handle, getting nothing in return from the university?

[zazie]

I was responding to the silly idea of making schools keep players on scholarship until they graduate. The idea that athletes on full scholarship get 4 years on campus, yet are owed even more if THEY fail to earn enough credits to graduate (while the paying students fork over $50-$100K over those same years and often go into years of debt), is absurd. If they are too dumb to take advantage of the opportunity, they get what they deserve.

 

How can anyone consider 4 years of free room, board, and all the classroom instruction you can handle, getting nothing in return from the university?

I went to a division 3 uni and had a friend who was on the football team. It took at least 60% of his time all year long; he was at practice, in the weight room, watching film (even in division 3). Spring practice and summer even he was there, practicing, working on football.

 

The Division 1 Universities are using these kids as a cash cow and the golden goose, not sending them to class and making athletics the lower priority. The reverse is true.

 

Giving them some extra time and help to work on acedemics and graduation after they have outlivied their athletic usefulness seems only fair given that when they were athletes the expectation was that they focus on catching the ball rather than physics or sciences.

 

Their 'tutoring' whilst they are student athletes generally consists of someone telling them what classes and professors will give them a passing grade no matter what.

[bills44]

FWIW, programs with large numbers of athletes who lose eligibility, leave school, or don’t graduate can lose academic scholarships. The NCAA enacted these regulations a few years ago. UB actually lost a few FB scholarships a few years ago due to these regulations.

 

Care to provide any specific instances of SU "completely dump(ing) these kids once their useful playing careers are over for the school, and does not give them whatever tutoring or mentoring they need to actually graduate and become more able to be society contributors"?

[zazie]

FWIW, programs with large numbers of athletes who lose eligibility, leave school, or don’t graduate can lose academic scholarships. The NCAA enacted these regulations a few years ago. UB actually lost a few FB scholarships a few years ago due to these regulations.

 

Care to provide any specific instances of SU "completely dump(ing) these kids once their useful playing careers are over for the school, and does not give them whatever tutoring or mentoring they need to actually graduate and become more able to be society contributors"?

SU not too great but within the center of the bell curve....

 

WTF is up with Kentucky???

 

Basketball Grad Rates: Selected Others

 

Santa Clara 77%

St. Joseph's 70%

North Carolina 67%

Michigan State 64%

Kansas 60%

Duke 58%

Iowa 55%

Syracuse 53%

Illinois 47%

Wake Forest 44%

Gonzaga 43%

Connecticut 27%

Maryland 25%

Georgia Tech 19%

Kentucky 8%

[apuszczalowski]

What? The unis are generating lots of cash; they give nothing to these athletes for 'free'. The reverse is true, the athletes risk life long injury and sell lots of stuff for the universities... for free.

Ah, they get a free scholarship to a school that most of those players probably couldn't get into if they didn't get a scholarship. College isn't cheap, and most of those players are there for free. Taking advantage of the free ride at a good college is something that the player needs to take advantage of. The reason why they are there is to play football, a perk for them is that they can get a free education as a backup if the football career doesn't work out. If they get hurt or the football career doesn't work out, they can pay for an education just like I had to do without a sports scholarship. As for the injury thing, thats one of the risk associated with playing the game, you take that risk to get a big reward (possibly making the NFL)

[Conch]

This is a side topic that came up in the Mike Leach debate and I think deserves its own thread.

 

Why is it that some schools (Syracuse BB comes to mind but there are myriad examples), find it so acceptable to completely dump these kids once their useful playing careers are over for the school, and does not give them whatever tutoring or mentoring they need to actually graduate and become more able to be society contributors?

 

Even guys that have a chance a the pros (very very few of the overall student athlete population) should be pushed to get that degree after spending 4 or 5 tears on a campus generating positive cash-flow.

 

I have never understood why it is not more of a scandal.

 

To me that is the most telling thing about Leach and his ethics, that he makes his guys get that degree. To do hat he must be following up with them in the spring semester of their senior year (not to mentiopn all through their uni lives); he cares and does it right.

 

I think any program with a less than 70% graduation rate should be sanctioned by NCAA rule.

 

Thoughts?

 

The players are not brought in to get an education dummy. They are brought in to make more money for the sports department so they can pay exorbitant salaries to college coaches who pose as "coach / educators". Colleges have been hijacked by their sports departments and alumnae associations with the support of Washington and State Govts'. It is truly criminal but no one wants to change. It spotlights just another way as to how corrupt our society has become. Time for a revolution.

[The Senator]

This is a side topic that came up in the Mike Leach debate and I think deserves its own thread.

 

Why is it that some schools (Syracuse BB comes to mind but there are myriad examples), find it so acceptable to completely dump these kids once their useful playing careers are over for the school, and does not give them whatever tutoring or mentoring they need to actually graduate and become more able to be society contributors?

 

Even guys that have a chance a the pros (very very few of the overall student athlete population) should be pushed to get that degree after spending 4 or 5 tears on a campus generating positive cash-flow.

 

I have never understood why it is not more of a scandal.

 

To me that is the most telling thing about Leach and his ethics, that he makes his guys get that degree. To do hat he must be following up with them in the spring semester of their senior year (not to mentiopn all through their uni lives); he cares and does it right.

 

I think any program with a less than 70% graduation rate should be sanctioned by NCAA rule.

 

Thoughts?

Nice thread, zazie - and, without getting into the other issues surrounding Mike Leach (I'll confine my thoughts on that to the other thread), I thought I'd repost a brief excerpt from All-American tackle Rylan Reed's email regarding Leach and academics...

 

Another incident that occurred was after my pro day in which I hurt my knee and my dream of playing in the NFL quickly came to a halt so I went home to rehab with two semesters left from graduating. I was able to get a job and start working, but quickly realized that to get the dream job in the real world that I always wanted, it would take getting my degree from Texas Tech. When I got home from work one day, I got a phone call from coach Leach asking, if they were able to get some paper work filled out, would I be willing to come back to school to finish my degree, and of course I said yes. I am proud to say that, as a result of coach Leach’s influence, I will finish my degree from Texas Tech in May 2010.

 

Former Texas Tech President Jon Whitmore on Leach:

 

“Mike Leach puts academics first in his program,” says Whitmore. “These young men are students first. Mike is a first class coach whose teams bring honor to Texas Tech both on the field and in the classroom.”

 

Since Leach took over as coach for the 2000 season, the Texas Tech football program has placed 108 players on the Academic All Big XII team , second in the conference.

 

For the past six years, the Red Raider football program has been recognized by the American Football Coaches Association (AFCA) as one of the nation’s top academic performers for consistently having a graduation rate at or above 70 percent. In 2006, the Red Raider’s 80 percent graduation rate made it one of only 29 football programs in all of Division I-A, and one of the four Big XII programs, to be so honored by the association. Prior to 2001, the football program had never made the AFCA’s list of top graduation programs. Only one other Big XII team has made the AFCA list every year for the past six years.

 

Link - Texas Tech Monthly (September 2006)

 

 

Current Texas Tech President Guy Bailey on Leach:

 

“Any time you have somebody whose name is associated with your institution in a positive way, that’s a very helpful thing,” Bailey said. “Mike has done some great things on the field. When people think Mike Leach, they think Tech.”

 

Bailey said Leach has been supportive of the academic goals of the university, and the success of the football team in academics also has helped in recruiting. One year after the most successful season in Tech football history, the university posted a record 30,049 enrollment...

 

“The other thing that’s so helpful about his name is that he’s associated with academic integrity and academic success,” he said.

 

 

TT Chancellor Kent Hance:

 

Tech Chancellor Kent Hance said Leach’s name recognition on high-profile TV shows such as “60 Minutes” and with appearances in the New York Times helps the university.

 

“Mike is Mike. He speaks his mind, and he’s enough of an individual that goes with his own drummer that it doesn’t look like he’s another coach,” he said. “Our No. 1 purpose is an educational institution and higher learning, and he promotes our purpose.”

 

 

And, from the horse's mouth...

 

Leach said he wants to dominate in academics in addition to victory on the football field.

 

“I’ve got more degrees than I use. Than I know what to do with, really. And at one time more than I could afford,” he said. “There’s no question you should have high academics. And there should be no excuse for not graduating people.”

 

The attention Leach’s athletes put into academics is something most people would be surprised with, he said.

 

“One of the first questions I get is, ‘What’s the academic center like?’” Leach said. “He knows he’s going to spend a lot of time in that academic center.”

 

 

Link - excerpted from The Daily Toreador - 11/23/2009

 

 

All coaches should have that same concern for their players' academic well-being.