Typical TBD Guy Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 The consensus on this board seems to be that running the 3-4 would be greatly preferable to the 4-3, but won't doing so require a tremendous amount of roster gutting and contract eating (particularly among the DE's)? Given the major problems we already have at QB and OL, would it be wise to add so many more problems to the list? Couldn't we just run a non-Tampa 2 version of the 4-3 instead and go after reasonably sized LB's? I'm more of the football philosophy that good coaches make the playbook fit the personnel. If these coaches insist on having to do it the other way around in order to succeed, then it's only a short matter of time before the league figures your system out. There are still plenty of NFL teams that run the 4-3 with success, and my contention is that the 2010 Buffalo Bills can still aspire to be a playoff team if the front office sticks with retooling our current 4-3 instead of a complete overhaul for a 3-4. Having said that, let's take a look at the current DL's and LB's on the roster. There are 24 in total (7 DE, 7 DT, 10 LB), counting guys from the roster, practice squad, and IR: The * denotes players I believe the Bills have cap space tied to that is of some significant size. The ^ denotes players I believe the Bills have made a development commitment to and should not necessarily be given up on (without some sort of trade, at least). DE Aaron Schobel - * DE Chris Kelsay - * DE Ryan Denney DE Aaron Maybin - *^ DE Chris Ellis - ^ DE Jermaine McGhee DE Marcus Smith DT Marcus Stroud - * DT Kyle Williams - ^ DT Spencer Johnson - * DT John McCargo - ^ DT Corey Mace DT Lonnie Harvey DT Rashaad Duncan LB Kawika Mitchell - * LB Paul Posluszny - ^ LB Nic Harris - ^ LB Keith Ellison LB Chris Draft LB Marcus Buggs LB Ashlee Palmer LB Jon Corto LB Josh Stamer LB Ryan Manalac So that's a total of 11 players from the front 7 that must be seriously considered before a complete transition to a 3-4. Can Stroud, Williams, Johnson, and McCargo play as 3-4 DE's? None seem to have the size to play NT (and McCargo may not have the ability/desire to play anywhere in the NFL). Can Schobel, Kelsay, Maybin, Ellis, and Harris play as 3-4 OLB's? Can Mitchell and Posluszny play as 3-4 ILB's? These are questions that I'd like the 3-4 proponents to answer. Also, does anyone have the contract details on these guys? The poster known as "clumping platelets" hasn't updated his salary cap page in almost a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 The consensus on this board seems to be that running the 3-4 would be greatly preferable to the 4-3, but won't doing so require a tremendous amount of roster gutting and contract eating (particularly among the DE's)? Given the major problems we already have at QB and OL, would it be wise to add so many more problems to the list? Couldn't we just run a non-Tampa 2 version of the 4-3 instead and go after reasonably sized LB's? I'm more of the football philosophy that good coaches make the playbook fit the personnel. If these coaches insist on having to do it the other way around in order to succeed, then it's only a short matter of time before the league figures your system out. There are still plenty of NFL teams that run the 4-3 with success, and my contention is that the 2010 Buffalo Bills can still aspire to be a playoff team if the front office sticks with retooling our current 4-3 instead of a complete overhaul for a 3-4. Having said that, let's take a look at the current DL's and LB's on the roster. There are 24 in total (7 DE, 7 DT, 10 LB), counting guys from the roster, practice squad, and IR: The * denotes players I believe the Bills have cap space tied to that is of some significant size. The ^ denotes players I believe the Bills have made a development commitment to and should not necessarily be given up on (without some sort of trade, at least). DE Aaron Schobel - * DE Chris Kelsay - * DE Ryan Denney DE Aaron Maybin - *^ DE Chris Ellis - ^ DE Jermaine McGhee DE Marcus Smith DT Marcus Stroud - * DT Kyle Williams - ^ DT Spencer Johnson - * DT John McCargo - ^ DT Corey Mace DT Lonnie Harvey DT Rashaad Duncan LB Kawika Mitchell - * LB Paul Posluszny - ^ LB Nic Harris - ^ LB Keith Ellison LB Chris Draft LB Marcus Buggs LB Ashlee Palmer LB Jon Corto LB Josh Stamer LB Ryan Manalac So that's a total of 11 players from the front 7 that must be seriously considered before a complete transition to a 3-4. Can Stroud, Williams, Johnson, and McCargo play as 3-4 DE's? None seem to have the size to play NT (and McCargo may not have the ability/desire to play anywhere in the NFL). Can Schobel, Kelsay, Maybin, Ellis, and Harris play as 3-4 OLB's? Can Mitchell and Posluszny play as 3-4 ILB's? These are q the 3-4 proponents on how Nice post. If you look at teams like the Pats* or the Saints, they have the personnel to mix it up and play either scheme, which strikes me as effective. e.g., why not run a 4-3 base, but go to a 3-4 in obvious pass-rushing situations, with guys like Maybin and Schoebel rushing as OLB's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DELLAPELLE JOHN Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 i would prefer a 4-3 but instead of having 1 gap tackles , id rather have 2 2 gap tackles with size and power.... not quick and small 1 gappers.... basically the scheme the ravens ran in 2000 i also prefer big strong linebackers and if they have great sub 4.8 speed then that just adds to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted January 1, 2010 Author Share Posted January 1, 2010 Nice post. If you look at teams like the Pats* or the Saints, they have the personnel to mix it up and play either scheme, which strikes me as effective. e.g., why not run a 4-3 base, but go to a 3-4 in obvious pass-rushing situations, with guys like Maybin and Schoebel rushing as OLB's? But even in obvious pass-rushing situations, there will be instances where one or both of the 3-4 OLB's will have to suddenly drop back in coverage. I suppose this is my main problem with any sort of part-time or full-time conversion to the 3-4: can our current DE's learn to effectively drop back in coverage as OLB's? This question is geared toward anyone who has been carefully following Schobel's and Kelsay's play over the years, as well as Maybin and Ellis from their college days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted January 1, 2010 Author Share Posted January 1, 2010 i would prefer a 4-3 but instead of having 1 gap tackles , id rather have 2 2 gap tackles with size and power.... not quick and small 1 gappers.... basically the scheme the ravens ran in 2000 i also prefer big strong linebackers and if they have great sub 4.8 speed then that just adds to it. At this point, I just hope Buddy Nix will draft the best players available regardless of the "system" we choose to run. We passed on Haloti Ngata and took John McCargo...a classic case of drafting for the "system" that has blown up in our face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DELLAPELLE JOHN Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 buffalo could trade down and build the front seven in this draft big time 1 terrence cody dt 2 brandon graham de 2 brandon spikes mlb 3 vince oghobaase dt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 i would prefer a 4-3 but instead of having 1 gap tackles , id rather have 2 2 gap tackles with size and power.... not quick and small 1 gappers.... basically the scheme the ravens ran in 2000 i also prefer big strong linebackers and if they have great sub 4.8 speed then that just adds to it. ... like the Vikings play this year. I can see that, but I still like having the DTs penetrate. As a former interior lineman, I hated nothing more than quick DTs who were good at getting penetration. However, this means that the LBs need to be bigger and more physical so that they can take on free blockers. Enough small LBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeBillsDrive Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 ... like the Vikings play this year. I can see that, but I still like having the DTs penetrate. As a former interior lineman, I hated nothing more than quick DTs who were good at getting penetration. However, this means that the LBs need to be bigger and more physical so that they can take on free blockers. Enough small LBs. Keith Ellison being the best example. He'd be a backup on 75% teams in the NFL, yet he's a starter for the Bills (prior to going on IR) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandius Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Most of the players who don't "fit", I couldn't care less about. They're either old farts or suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadstroke Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 The consensus on this board seems to be that running the 3-4 would be greatly preferable to the 4-3, but won't doing so require a tremendous amount of roster gutting and contract eating (particularly among the DE's)? Given the major problems we already have at QB and OL, would it be wise to add so many more problems to the list? Couldn't we just run a non-Tampa 2 version of the 4-3 instead and go after reasonably sized LB's? IMHO you're complicating things. Look... Maybin is too light in the butt to play DE, and besides even if he could he plays the same position, same side, as Schobel who I'm confident will give it a go for a couple more years. Therefore, McKinley, Maybin goes to LB, if and only if, we go to a 3-4. That's how I see it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Switching to the 3-4 will only lengthen our rebuilding period, because there aren't enough players coming out of college that fit the 3-4 mold. The league has an overpopulation of 3-4 teams, and teams are taking guys before they should be drafted. I say stick with the 4-3 (the vast majority of college teams have 4-3 defenses) and we should get a better pick of the litter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 How much of this 3-4 talk is really dreaming up "solutions" to make Aaron Maybin a better player? Changing the entire defense to fit it around Maybin, given what we have seen to date, would most likely result in some people getting fired down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aplusfool Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 I can see that, but I still like having the DTs penetrate. As a former interior lineman, I hated nothing more than quick DTs who were good at getting penetration. However, this means that the LBs need to be bigger and more physical so that they can take on free blockers. Enough small LBs. Couldn't agree more. In their current state, the Bills front four have a hard enough time as it is, could you imagine anybody on this current teams DL that could play in a 3 man front, I can't. Lineman would come free and squish our current LB corps and that would include Maybin at that position who at this time has enough trouble taking on lineman. Could you really see Maybin covering a back out of the backfield ? Regardless if the Bills go 4-3 or 3-4 they need to retool. This team was drafted to run the Tampa 2, and I believe it will take them a couple of seasons to fully implement a proper 4-3 or 3-4. Their LBs need to be upgraded not only at the starting spots but depth as well. I mean your back-ups are so good that you have your SS, street free agent, and your rookie college S starting at LB over the likes of Corto and Palmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDRupp Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 buffalo could trade down and build the front seven in this draft big time 1 terrence cody dt 2 brandon graham de 2 brandon spikes mlb 3 vince oghobaase dt Nice initial thought, but they will not pay the big bucks in Free Agency so who is out LOT? Somebody from existing pool like D Bell, Meredith, or J Scott. Can you say "No"! OT instead of Cody in Rnd 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Our DL needs to be completely replaced anyways no matter which scheme. Might as well restock for the better scheme, 3 -4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 But even in obvious pass-rushing situations, there will be instances where one or both of the 3-4 OLB's will have to suddenly drop back in coverage. I suppose this is my main problem with any sort of part-time or full-time conversion to the 3-4: can our current DE's learn to effectively drop back in coverage as OLB's? This question is geared toward anyone who has been carefully following Schobel's and Kelsay's play over the years, as well as Maybin and Ellis from their college days. to slightly answer your question, Schobel and Kelsey have dropped back in coverage, a few years ago when LeBeau was an assistant, Buffalo ran a 4-3 (true) but it was a blitz zone 43, with DEs dropping in coverage. Buffalo then had the 2nd ranked defense, 8th against the run, 2nd against the pass and 5th in points allowed (17.4) I know the defense was different, Buffalo was much more talented...but the question was asked...the other question about NT, Jay Ratliff is 6'4" and listed at 303 pounds. which when you break it down means he would have less leverage than Williams. On obvious passing downs we wouldn't run a 3-4..3-4 is run on first and maybe 2nd downs, we would be in a nickel or dime. w/ current roster schobel-Mitchell-Poz-Kelsey/Maybin Johnson williams Stroud this is on first down and more obvious running situations then move Stroud or Johnson inside, have Maybin/Kelsey and Schobel line up at DE. In the Nickel Harris and Poz and in the dime Poz or Harris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 How much of this 3-4 talk is really dreaming up "solutions" to make Aaron Maybin a better player? Changing the entire defense to fit it around Maybin, given what we have seen to date, would most likely result in some people getting fired down the road. I think it is more the result of seeing year in and year out the top defense in the NFL being a 3-4, this year the top three teams, NJ jets, packers, and Ravens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRW Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Seeing as the 3-4 seems to be back in vogue, the wiser course seems to me to go against the grain, stick with some form of 4-3, but hopefully get some more size in the linebacking corps. If we join the trendy crowd chasing after guys to fit a 3-4 I don't see anything but trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsMagic1 Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Nice post. If you look at teams like the Pats* or the Saints, they have the personnel to mix it up and play either scheme, which strikes me as effective. e.g., why not run a 4-3 base, but go to a 3-4 in obvious pass-rushing situations, with guys like Maybin and Schoebel rushing as OLB's? 100% on. Flexibility is the key here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan_in_raleigh Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 How much of this 3-4 talk is really dreaming up "solutions" to make Aaron Maybin a better player? Changing the entire defense to fit it around Maybin, given what we have seen to date, would most likely result in some people getting fired down the road.I do not suggest we change a scheme just for Maybin the guy was a bad pick no matter what defense ya wanted to run. Maybe he could play OLB but with need for size on DL he doesnt make the squad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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