Reed83HOF
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Posts posted by Reed83HOF
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5 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
I agree with all this - but it wasn't IMO a binary process. It's not that Josh never displayed those bad traits when Daboll was here - because they surfaced and resurfaced. It may be true that perhaps that he was more able to accept hard coaching and that he was able one way or the other to be coaxed out of the bad traits and into disciplined play, better. Or, maybe he got positive reinforcement to be great from Daboll instead of hard coaching, IDK, I just heard about a "see how great you can be" video. Or, maybe he got both.
Frankly, it wasn't that intrinsically Josh recognized a great football mind he needed to bond with and listen to right off the bat. Josh told a story about Daboll screaming in his helmet his rookie year after he ignored the play call and took a throw to the corner of the EZ that got picked. He said Daboll screamed until he was read in the face, then calmed down and walked away, then thought about it and came back and screamed some more. Josh needed to "bottom out" and have a terrible, horrible, no good very bad loss to NE 4 games into his 2nd season before he had some hard discussions with Beane and McDermott and made a decision to change his ways.
Maybe this game will serve as a "bottoming out" to bring Josh back to the same realization. We fans can hope.
I agree with all of this...
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46 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
Jordan Palmer in the past has talked about watching film with his QB, and in fact having film night with the draft class where they watched with Josh and some of his other professional clients. He's also talked about putting Josh together with 'mental coaching', whatever that means.
I agree with you that this isn't mechanical.
I do understand your point about it being easier to accept hard coaching from someone you completely respect as your clear superior.
But Josh has talked about how much he respects and how much he's learned from Dorsey: "my career changed when he walked in the building".
If Josh actually can not accept constructive criticism or "hard coaching" from Dorsey and take in what he has to say...then Josh made a foolish mistake in lobbying for a man he has stated he respects and has learned from to take over as OC, and Josh is going to do him the disservice of getting his ass fired.
As a professional, I would have comments about your stated approach on constructive criticism, but 'not my circus not my monkeys'
I've been busy today and haven't had a chance to hop back in here yet.
Obviously this is all conjecture, part of the fun (or frustration) is trying to put pieces of a puzzle together....
Not that Jordan Plamer speaks for Josh, but obviously there is a closeness there, looking at who may or many not be credible or have some knowledge of a situation based on relationships with the parties is our only real avenue to try to get some insight on what's going on. As fans we also have a way of accepting or dismissing information in what we want to or not want to believe. This certainly seems to be something that is multifaceted and there is not just one root cause.
For Palmer to make a comment like this, he has some level of knowledge and obviously felt compelled enough to put this tid bit out there, if any of us care to know by delving into the topic, it is up to us to try to decipher it...
“It’s less about Ken Dorsey & what he isn’t. It’s more about Brian Daboll. I think a few years from now we’ll all say that’s the best coach in football…
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“What Josh benefited from with Daboll was not just the play calling but learning the game… learning the game from who Bill Belichick and a lot of other people think is one of the smarter dudes in the league at teaching the position”."
It's not Josh and Dorsey at all, it's giving him an elite mind to help teach him the game and to mentor him through the challenges of what teams are game planning against him as well as unlocking the understanding of the game within himself to get to that other level. When you have someone you have that level of respect for, it is easier to listen to the constructive criticism they are providing to you.
I mean there is a chance that Daboll is one of those minds...
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4 minutes ago, Doc said:
This isn't a Bills rebuild/timeline, where they had Tyrod and then drafted Josh the following year and needed to develop him. Jones was the 6th overall pick and going into his 5th year. He had his best season in the NFL under Daboll last year and as a result they are paying him $40M/year for at least the next 2 years. They will expect to see Jones continue to improve, not be replaced in 2 years time.
If that's how they truly thought an out wouldn't exist at the end of next season in that contract. Schoen rightfully saw the qb market about to explode and kept what they had. How much was that both him and dabolls choice vs the owner who badly wants Jones to succeed?
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1 hour ago, The Wiz said:
I don't disagree with anything you said at all but when you see that there were plays underneath on the all-22 that he didn't take, you need to ask why he didn't take the easy play.
I'm not asking him to turn into captain checkdown and throw a 4 yard pass on 3rd and 20 but when he's throwing bombs on 2nd and 10 with guys open 4-5 yards in front of him, it's a question that needs to be asked why he's not taking those.
He's not taking them because it's who he is. He knows he can and had made those throws and plays in the past and thinks he can do it again. He is not the let's live to play another down guy and if it is a close game he is going to press and press to score or get the first down in 3rd and long. Josh's tendency is to get it all at once...
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1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:
I think I agree with @BeavercreekBillsFan here - Kyle likes guys who run his plays. Because he is the best play designer in football. I don't think he is as good as a playcaller as Reid (and there are probably a few others you could throw in that mix as playcallers - Pederson, McVay actually even Josh McDaniels) but as a play designer, he is unparalleled IMO. Shanahan beats teams on the whiteboard with the Xs and Os. His big successes in his career have come with Matt Schaub, Matt Ryan, Jimmy G and Brock Purdy. Guys who are very much system Quarterbacks who run the play as it is designed. Matt Ryan was a very good system Quarterback and probably was a top 6 or 7 guy in the league at the time. So I'm not saying he wants average QBs but he wants guys who do not ad-lib too much. He wants you to run the play he designed.
Maybe he could coach Josh into that guy, I'm not convinced though.
Josh would never be that guy
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2 minutes ago, mjt328 said:
On the first interception, Josh Allen had plenty of clear space to run for the first down. And Dawson Knox open down the sideline for a possible touchdown throw. He instead launched it into double coverage.
On the second, there was definitely pressure and I understand why he didn't want to take the sack. But he could have thrown the ball at James Cook's feet (at the very least). He made the worst possible decision and once again launched it into double coverage when Stefon Diggs had zero chance.
On the third interception, Josh Allen had two receivers open past the first down marker. He instead got greedy for another 10-15 yards and underthrew a corner route, allowing the safety to undercut the throw.
On the fumble, he completely took his eyes off the snap. Then tried to run into traffic without fully securing the ball.
This is not a rookie QB who hasn't been taught properly. This is a 6-year-veteran with a ton of experience and success to his name. Fans always have the kneejerk reaction to blame coaching. But none of this is on Ken Dorsey or Sean McDermott. It was a total meltdown by our quarterback. Plain and simple.
It's not really an x's and o's or there is a problem with the scheme, it's what the qb is choosing to do and feeding into his bad impulses. There certainly is the arm arrogance part of it, look at the int on the route where Davis was jumped. Space took a step or hesitated towards covering him instead focusing on the TE in front of it, which created a small window for josh to fit the ball in there. Whitehead read josh the whole time, what Aikman said about Davis route was true and if allen led the ball more outside ot may have been a catch like it was in the past. Hey I made this throw before and I can do it again instead of taking the other 2 options who would get me the first, the TE sauce was covering or the LB on Diggs over the middle.
Psychology when you have a qb who can make throws no one else can and is a risk taker, it is easy to be baited into taking those shots especially in a close game. Being wired the way he is with his physical abilities is entirely different than Brady who will dink and dunk you to death...
Peyton Manning who is likely as of now the best QB to ever play the position had built-in mentors within his own family. One of Mahomes biggest strengths is his understanding of the game, IIRC, he even mentioned that he doesn't watch much film either and he wasn't the best at reading the defense. It's that stiff that is missing, guys are open, but you need the tough love to pullback on those negative tendencies...
People generally only follow the tough love of people they respect as knowing more than them and that have thought them and brought them along...
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1 hour ago, Limeaid said:
So we need a virgin QB to succeed.We don't need Tebow
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7 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:
Yeah, I think I’ve read more about Daboll now that he’s no longer with the team, than I have when he was here. And when he was here I remember quite vividly the calls for his head and the wild speculation about the rift between he and McD.
Many wanted to see Daboll gone and now that they’ve got their wish, they want him back.
There certainly was a rift between him and McD and there were certainly times the offense stalled during his time as OC, I'm certainly not disagreeing with any of that, what I do see different is the mentor-mentee relationship that him and Allen had is absent and that allows those bad traits to start to surface again. Allen certainly had those bad traits during his time with Daboll as well, but Josh did appear to learn from it and limit those opportunities.
Lol
Over the last 16 or 17 games, Josh is a bit different and the offense feels harder to get moving. The over the top stuff isn't there and Josh is pressing and the bad habits are creeping back. That's where that trusted mentor comes in, it's the soft skills and the trust between the teach and student or coach and player.
36 minutes ago, Doc said:True there's an out after 2024 (with a $22M cap hit), but Daboll was brought-in to make Jones a franchise QB. If the can't do that and they're looking for a new QB in 2025...
That won't play well with the Giants fans, media and probably ownership. He might be a victim of his own early success.
That was due to Lawyer Milloy. But as I said, we'll have to see how the rest of the season goes.
He was hired because he was the best candidate available, the owner wants someone who can fix Jones, but that doesn't mean he can be. In any event the giants will be rebuilt like the Bills, competitive tear down and rebuild. Regardless of what a team says about a QB or any player, what their actions and not their words...Zach Wilson is our guy....
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34 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
This. Any field - if you're lucky enough to have a top mentor, you need to take all you can get from them, and take it to heart, and meld it into your heart and mind as much as you can. Because things change. Mentors retire, get promoted, leave to take different positions elsewhere - all kinds of things change.
You're absolutely right. If a team is successful, the coordinators will get offers.
If a QB can't adjust to different coordinators in today's NFL, he's got a problem.
It's not just about adjusting to different coordinators. Josh lobbied for Dorsey to stay as the OC...
As @Buffalo716 said above:
"They had a great Bond.. that Brian was able to develop since Josh was 22... Brian was able to rip into him and give him criticism... Without pushbackWhat all professional football players need.. a coach to coach them
I don't think Allen respects Dorsey enough to be coached by him... Sure he can play under him... But he doesn't fear and respect him enough to take in coaching"
The respect can easily be tied to Daboll's understanding of the game and that Josh bought into and recognized that. In any part of life, when you have that mentor who is on another level and you realize that - you accept that teaching and coaching, you give the respect and it is much easier to take constructive criticism from due to that trust and respect. Once that mentor leaves, yes you learned things and are better than you were before, but are you willing to accept constructive criticism from that next mentor if they are on a level or 2 below? Personally, in my work life, I struggle with that (generally because I know more than they do LOL). There are only a handful of people in my professional life I would accept constructive criticism from, because they are levels above me...
22 minutes ago, without a drought said:So Jordan Palmer's off season work is a waste of time?
I'm not saying he's a problem, but he's no Daboll.
Josh's work with Jordan was mechanics...This isn't mechanical.
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7 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
I think Jordan Palmer doesn't help himself by being America's Guest.
Josh's performance on Monday night should not be about losing Daboll. Josh is a big boy now, a 6 year veteran. He doesn't need an "elite football mind" to tell him don't make (at least 2 of) the three throws he made that were intercepted, protect the football vs. trying to get back to the LOS but taking the ball and yourself into traffic.
He doesn't. Any ordinary competent fooball mind will tell him that. Josh just has to be willing to be coachable and listen.
Daboll has done some good things as a coach. Daboll has done some strange things as a coach.
If Daboll is such a great coach, why did his team get drubbed 40-0 on Sunday?
And if Josh learned so much from 4 years with this brilliant football mind, and Josh is as smart and dedicated as Palmer tells us he is, shouldn't he be able to retain some of that?
Come on Hapless, you are better than to take an isolated look at 1 game for each team this season...Hard to believe you are attempting an argument on the Giants losing 40-0 on Sunday. Assuming you think Bellicheck is an excellent coach, how did his team lose 31-0 to us on opening day? Poor argument there...
Something has certainly changed. Last year after the jets game, the injury was a concern for everyone and it did affect his play, it is very possible that there is something more going on.
"As easy as it is to chalk Allen’s errors up to Week 1 rustiness against a debilitating team, the outcome was troubling because it is a continuation of the downward spiral that Allen’s slid down in the 19 games he’s played since his 2022 Divisional Round classic against Patrick Mahomes.
On the heels of his legendary fourth-quarter barnburner against the Chiefs and a second-place finish in 2020 MVP voting, expectations for Allen were sky-high. However, his off night is looking like the new normal for Allen while his stretch between 2020 and 2021 is the outlier. In the 13 games since beating the Kansas City Chiefs in a raucous Sunday afternoon showdown in October of last year, Allen has thrown 22 touchdowns to 16 interceptions. He’s fumbled 13 times as well. If you go back even further to the beginning of 2022, he’s committed 39 turnovers over his past 19 games."
This looks more like decision-making on his part and wanting to rely on his talent for the big play, which teams are game planning away, more than taking his easy button and hitting the open guys.
Josh being a big boy as a 6 year old vet, doesn't eliminate the need for coaching to reign in his bad habits. Having a coach who you respect and trust, can be real (tell it like it is) and that you are willing to be able to accept constructive criticism is something that someone with his tendencies likely requires. He has been able to get where he is based off of his unique physical characteristics and his ability to ball and those tendencies are ingrained in who he is. He is very Favre like and is able to pass the ball in situations where others can't - his arm arrogance.
Thinking deeper and borrowing off of something I heard today from a psychologist(it is late and I'm making this quick and not overly detailed as I am freaking exhausted) about the physical development of the brain...
As a whole, the frontal lobe is responsible for higher cognitive functions such as memory, emotions, impulse control, problem solving, social interaction, and motor function.
The prefrontal cortex coordinates higher-order cognitive processes and executive functioning. Executive functions are a set of supervisory cognitive skills needed for goal-directed behavior, including planning, response inhibition, working memory, and attention [19]. These skills allow an individual to pause long enough to take stock of a situation, assess his or her options, plan a course of action, and execute it. Poor executive functioning leads to difficulty with planning, attention, using feedback, and mental inflexibility [19], all of which could undermine judgment and decision making.
The frontal lobes, home to key components of the neural circuitry underlying “executive functions” such as planning, working memory, and impulse control, are among the last areas of the brain to mature; they may not be fully developed until halfway through the third decade of life [2]. This finding has prompted interest in linking stage of neuromaturation to maturity of judgment.
Having the trusted confidant to help continually reinforce the elimination of bad habits, to call you out, to teach and coach you while your still fully developing may be a bigger loss than everyone of us as fans expected.
I'm sure someone here will make a comment implying that Josh has poor executive functions, when the fact is he may not be at the stage of life where that is fully physiologically developed. Having that close person to help coach you through that in the game of football, may be under estimated.
If you took Andy Reid away from Mahomes after 5 years and replaced him with a first time OC and you took away his version of Josh's Daboll, it is reasonable to assume he would take steps back in some areas as well in relation to his tendencies and skill set and some bad habits could appear. That entire support and coaching system and confidant is now gone.
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12 minutes ago, Doc said:
You know they just gave Jones a 4-year $160M contract with $81M guaranteed, right?
yup...
The Giants have an escape hatch after the 2024 season. They can cut ties with Jones to create $21.5 million in cap savings while eating $18 million in dead money. It’s not ideal to eat $18 million in dead money, but with a projected $282 million salary cap in 2025, the Giants could absorb that hit if they’re compelled to dump Jones
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1 minute ago, Doc said:
After that Cowboys game, there's not much to say except "wait and see how the rest of the season plays out."
That team overachieved last year and will regress towards the mean this year; they are are 3-4 year rebuild and still need to find a QB. Most of the threads I think there is an agreement amongst the fan base that the working relationship between Josh and Daboll is missed. Josh would take his a$ chewing and would learn and grow...
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16 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:
With them playing so deep on us, next game we may need to run Allen more. He scored about a 40 yard TD last year on them.He had a lane on the one but stumbled and fell. He probably would have scored.
Aggressive pass rush = screens or draw plays to counter it. We can't run a screen to save our life, so I get the draw plays. Spencer Brown's penalty in OT killed us and put us in 2nd and long. They did have a light box against us, so I get the call there...
I'm hoping Brown develops more and we preach competition at every position, but yet we went in very thin at RT and didn't bring in anyone who could push him.
14 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:It's an interesting thought. And totally agree on last point...even with Cook, we had a few "so close" moments of HUGE plays. Those should come.
I think LY, and years past, would mix in some rush power sweeps/designed runs. Those are difficult to defend in general, but definitely helps get those safeties to creep up/adjust Cover 2 shell.
I don't think Coach was going to be a "hypocrite" week 1, after preaching Josh protecting himself. BUT, they shouldn't be taking those plays completely away, 1-2 per game changes the perspective of the defense (just like the defense started to adjust to our smash concepts).
The preaching on protecting himself is to slide or get out of bounds and not leap over 6 guys or turn back in after you get the first...just avoid the hit. Josh is not cut from that cloth and will almost always initiate the contact
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11 minutes ago, Doc said:
Even with that 40-0 drubbing on opening night?
I'm interested to see what fruit this thread bears
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“It’s less about Ken Dorsey & what he isn’t. It’s more about Brian Daboll. I think a few years from now we’ll all say that’s the best coach in football…”
“(Bill Belichick) made a comment to me once & we were talking about Daboll and he said ‘Daboll’s one of the only coaches I’ve ever been around that can be an elite offensive coordinator, an elite defensive coordinator & an elite special teams coordinator. He understands football at that level.’”
“When you lose that, you aren’t just gonna replace it.”
“What Josh benefited from with Daboll was not just the play calling but learning the game… learning the game from who Bill Belichick and a lot of other people think is one of the smarter dudes in the league at teaching the position”.
Edit - I can't find the clip from Cowturd right now
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3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:
The Harty INT was very head scratching. The safety stayed deep the entire time….really deep.Knox had a few steps on Mosley. Allen had 8 yards of space ahead of him.
I would have hit Knox all day long....
That INT when he was targeting Gabe, that's just a tough throw - if the ball placement was a bit better and more outside, he would have had that, but Whitehead read it the entire time - arm arrogance there. I totally get the temptation when Sauce stepped up - he was like I got this and just didn't even look at the safety. I easly can see where just taking what they give you gets a little frustarting for him.
At the beginning of the show, I did find it interesting on the Cover 6 they kept calling against us. The end with talking about Bernard was a really nice chat as well. I like Eric's thought of comparing Milano's first season to Bernard's - there might be something here with him.
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1 hour ago, NewEra said:
Interesting. Thanks for putting this together. The stats pre and post hit are telling.
Definitely looks like a possibility. Massive dude smashing you in the back of your head while you’re on the ground.
Watch the Cover 1 film breakdown
Jets baited hero ball Josh, Josh bailed on the OL - Morse had a rough night, easy throws were there - he didn't take them, some arm arrogance on the undercut Whitehead INT (josh hit the same play in Detroit last year though, but he had Diggs and the TE open for the first. He just pressed and pressed some more and made some bad decisions
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41 minutes ago, Lost said:
Cover1 out with a breakdown of some of Josh's plays from Monday.
Film review starts @ 31:00
I was watching this and just updated it to throw this in here...It certainly wasn't on Dorsey
With the film breakdown, it wasn't Dorsey the easy plays were there. The one INT on the pass to Davis where Whitehead undercut, it was arm arrogance. He had 2 other throws for the first down. On the arm punt INT, he could have ran it (we know), but Knox had a few steps on Mosely for a huge possible gain. The basic breakdown is that, The Jets baited the hero ball out of Allen...-
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1 minute ago, Lost said:
Still not trash talking.
Have I said anywhere in this post that it was? Definitively?...nope
Lighten up Francis...
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1 minute ago, Donuts and Doritos said:
Totally out of context. She's responding to what the other person on there is saying. Listen closely to it. Their talking about getting to interview Steph & who's in control (you can also hear they're joking). Other person says "you come over there and say 'Steph get your ass over here'". Then she interrupts and says "Nope, he'll look at my face and say FU".
You left out the last part, "that's who he treats everyone"
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4 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:
His field vision is very inconsistent. Monday it was completely non existent. He's gotta improve there or the whole point of running a shorter passing attack will be moot.
The "arm arrogance" is definitely part of this. He somewhat understandably has the Favre in him. I still feel like Daboll was able to control it by getting to him...
This is just a comment, while I'm not hating on Dorsey, knowing that he was a hell of a college QB, I do wonder if the urge is there to just play madden in real life with Josh who can do almost anything on a football field. I feel like that's how I would call plays and trying to drop 60 on everyone lol
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Just now, Buffalo_Stampede said:
Why are people freaking out over this? Lol.
Lol it's what people do nowadays. Thought this would be a fun post for the board 🤣😇
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Not sure if I'd call it trash talking exactly...
"He's gonna do what he wants to do.He'll look at my face and say FU, that's how he treats everybody..."
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Update: All -22 stuff Joe Marino Locked on Bills, Now Cover 1 w/ play breakdowns
in The Stadium Wall
Posted
This is for you, listen to the end...