krazykat

Yeah, last year they were comparable which doesn't say much for Schonert, our QB coach now offensive coordinator, given the significant dropoff in JP's production from '06, call me crazy, or for the coaching otherwise. After that, there really wasn't a notable difference although on average both personal and team scoring was higher on a per-game basis. Otherwise Edwards started 5 home games and 3 away games with the tougher teams and Ds at home. (NE and Giants) JP started 3 home games and 4 road games with the tougher teams and Ds on the road. (Jax and Pitt) JP started the first NE game on the road but Edwards played just about all of the game. JP started the home game vs. NE in which the team was significantly better offensively and the D was significantly worse allowing scores on every single drive. Either way, outside of the Miami game Edwards sucked. Teams now have film of him and I can't imagine that it even remotely concerns any DC in the league. They're gonna bring it fast and furious, and while Edwards may respond favorably, I wouldn't put down a plug nickel that he does.

Edwards is the starter, so there is no "controversy" or question as to that. Jauron & Co. have opted for that. But to say that without a doubt he's better is one of the dumbest statements that anyone here could ever make and this season will bear that out. Having said that, neither appears to be the answer at QB for us and with JP wanting out of here anyway, it will leave the team high and dry and we can finally tag those responsible and hopefully move on from this and get this team turned around although I doubt that will happen too. But Jauron, Levy (now gone), and our illustrious personnel department that has laid far more goose eggs than hatched swans should be fired. Naturally that won't happen though, not in Buffalo. Regardless, to say that JP "got four seasons to prove himself" is asinine. He had one season, '06. In '04, his rookie year, he was injured early in the season and never started or played. In '05 he was jockeyed in and out with Holcomb all season. He started four games, didn't play well in his first few games in the NFL as all but a rookie, got yanked, then went back in for a few games and got yanked again and in spite of playing no worse than Edwards did last year and with a worse surrounding cast, was yanked again late in the season in favor of Holcomb, another message board hero for some. In '06 JP finally started. He put up 17 TDs, had 9 INTs, rushed for 1 more TD, and had 10 games with ratings of higher than 84, six higher than 90, and 4 higher than 100. With JP under center the Bills lost five games by 1 point twice, 2 points once, and 3 points twice with the offense scoring 10 points (@ NE), 17 points (@ Detroit), 9 points/3 FGs (@ Indy), 21 points (SD), and 29 points (Tennessee) for an average of over 17 points with obviously some very good defenses in there. Last year the Bills lost one game under Edwards game by fewer than 8 points and in that game the offense scored 0 TDs and had only one FG for 3 points total, at home on Monday Night. Season contrasts of JP in his only starting season v. Edwards last year: TDs JP: 3, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0 Edwards: 4, 2, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 Rating JP 142.5 140.8 111.7 101.6 97.1 90.7 86.5 86.3 86.1 84.1 74.9 70.7 68.5 65.6 63.6 35.8 Edwards 111.4 98.5 82.8 74.1 65 63.6 56.3 50.6 43.1 42.8 Completion % JP 75.0% 71.9% 68.4% 68.4% 66.7% 66.7% 65.2% 64.0% 61.8% 61.1% 57.9% 57.6% 57.1% 56.8% 53.3% 51.9% Edwards 78.6% 74.2% 66.7% 61.1% 53.3% 52.4% 50.0% 47.8% 39.4% 34.6% Yards JP 340 328 266 237 224 207 200 192 184 169 164 157 115 102 83 83 Edwards 257 234 176 165 161 153 133 130 124 97 YPA JP 10.5 10.5 8.9 8.6 8.1 7.7 7.1 7.0 6.9 6.8 6.8 6.1 6.0 5.0 4.6 4.3 Edwards 8.4 7.3 7.2 7.1 6.2 6.2 5.7 4.9 4.4 3.8 Other Information Under Edwards last season the team's offense averaged 1.1 offensive TDs/game with or w/o the first New England game that Edwards played in with JP coming out for injury on the first drive. The team's offense averaged 13.4 points per game otherwise w/o that same NE game, 12.8 ppg with it. Without the one good Miami game that Edwards had the team averaged 3/4-ths of a TD/game offensively and 11.2 ppg offensively otherwise. Under Losman in '06, the team's offense averaged 1-3/4-ths TDs/game, a full TD/game more offensively and 16.6 ppg offensively otherwise. Losman personally passed or ran for 1.25 TDs/game in '06. Edwards personally passed or ran for .9 TDs/game last year. In his first four games overall and first four starts overall, the ones that JP got in '05 after being yanked in favor of the new regime's boy-brought-on Holcomb, the team got 1 passing TD and 2 rushing TDs. (both McGahee) In Edwards first four games overall the team got 1 passing TD and 3 rushing TDs. (all Lynch) In Edwards' first four starts the team got the same 1 passing TD and 2 rushing TDs that it got under Losman while JP had that same crappy line mentioned next and without Lynch. So for those saying what you said, while in your minds it might be true, there certainly is a debate and the only way that someone could reasonably say what you said is to accompany it by saying or implying that the stats, data, and facts don't matter. For anyone considering only the facts of ball movement, efficiency, and scoring then JP has done more on a per-game basis and matching up game-by-game than Edwards has no matter how you slice it. But hey, for those that want to say that they enjoy seeing the team put up fewer 1st downs, converting fewer 3rd downs, getting fewer points and yards and generally seeing the offense do less but enjoy watching the way in which it is done, then great, you can say that. But what you cannot say without any certainty whatsoever and in the glaring midst of facts proving otherwise, is that this team's offense performed better under Edwards than it has under Losman. And Edwards undoubtedly had a better OL too. Now Edwards may be better this year, but we don't know that right now. So this is pure speculation at best, foolishness otherwise. Throw in the fact that JP didn't have Lynch in '06 or Dockery or Walker whom you will also suggest are all that, but even so, they are better than JP's starting line that consisted Peters just learning the LT position with Mike Gandy in there otherwise to start the season, Gandy and Reyes at LG, Villarrial and Preston at RG and Pennington at RT. Although I'm sure you'll rant on about how that line was just fine now or how McGahee is better than Lynch. This past season, JP got the nod early with Lynch just learning the ropes and with newbies Dockery and Walker just playing their first games on this line. And Lynch also wasn't in there in weeks 11 and 12 against NE and Jax, two of the league's best Ds last year, yet in spite of that the offense under JP averaged 1.5 offensive TDs/game contrasted with Edwards 1.1 and against some of the worst Ds in the league too. JP's offense in those two games put up about the same number of offensive points, and more yards than Edwards averaged on the season with Anthony Thomas as the starter. So say what you want, and this is no particular endorsement of JP, but there is no way in hell that anyone can make an argument that the offense performed better under Edwards if the facts are used and you can slice it any way that you would like to.

Agreed!

You really have to go to a game. I remember my first visit back in '82. I got to the stadium and thought "this is it?" It's a completely different ball game, NPI, when you walk in b/c half the stadium's below ground level. Actually more than half, the entire bowl. Must have been an enormouse project digging it. But you walk in and you're like, WOAH! It's really cool, especially if you go for a game. Concerts and stuff are fun, but games are the shiznit. Of course it helps when the team's good. : ]

Yeah, just a few. LOL As far as the complaining goes, I think the fans that want to complain have a full right to. This is a product my friend and 31 other companies manufacture them. Our product was among the worst of them last season. In mine and many other peoples' minds, we don't understand the acceptance of such lousy football by people, presumably such as yourself. I mean where are your personal standards as a fan? If all you want is a "pro team" and don't care what it does, then why even bother posting. Otherwise those of us that expect more wonder why your and others' standards are so low. I.e., you should be complaining with the pattern of Bills football that has emerged this decade.

They do huh? How much value does the offense hold without Peters? I know, I know, Chambers is stepping up. Right, I'll put that second on my priority list after buying stock in Countrywide.

It's a tough situation. On one hand he deserves it. On the other he did sign a contract. But when you factor in all the variables including that his career has been somewhat of a progression in the transition to LT and then finally very good LT, they need to do something. What rubs some of us fans the wrong way is the way the team throws money around for players that don't put up a fraction of what Peters does and often as backups too, but then for the very few key players that really make this team worth a damn every fall, for half of them they treat their contracts like an afterthought. I mean it really makes you scratch your head and wonder if the parents of most of the people in our front office used to feed them lead based paint chips for breakfast in a bowl with milk like cereal. By the way, that first 10 comment I think is immaterial. He's not a FA at the end of the season. And yeah, I do think he has their head in a vice. If they don't redo his contract after doing the likes of Williams and Butler, they will look like the bunch of incompetent boobs that they are. Otherwise they stand to lose far more than Peters.

Not really, it would have to be special teams. The other stuff on offense is just gravy. But the problem is that he excelled in coverages, not returns making his value less high profile. So it's difficult to say look at the stats. He's the only guy I know of that team's had to plan around on returns.

If the question pertains to which one is most critical to the team playing well this year it's gotta be the WRs. If it's just which position battle should be the most interesting in a vacuum, then I'd still have to say WR from the options. Otherwise I like the CB competition. As to FB it's gonna be Barnes right. And the TEs isn't like we have Gates and Gonzalez slugging it out. Neither player has done much in the NFL in terms of making an impact for their offense.

Looks pretty cool! Nice job!

Or, he was only the best lineman in your and others' minds. What happened to our "expert coaches" knowing everything?

Thanks John. Most people capable of independent thought usually do. 1,001

Hey Bufflaotone, I was thinking here, but in summary what I would say regarding this is the following: Put yourself in Peters' shoes. He comes here as an UFA and plays his heart out and works his way up the ladder to not only playing LT and anchoring the entire line for the most part, but does it in grand fashion to the extent of making a Pro Bowl and among the team's few PB players, and establishes himself as one of the best at his position in Buffalo on a team with few if any other players besides special teamers playing to his level at their positions. He then sees players like Dockery, Walker, Williams, Kelsay, Schobel, all get more than he does by a wide margin in most cases. He also sees players like Brad Butler, Melvin Fowler, Kyle Williams, Spencer Johnson, Kawika Mitchell, Robert Royal, Josh Reed get comparable or close to what he's getting although not one of them has been known for putting up anything close to what he's gotten and many are only proven backups or entirely lackluster starters. Then throw in contracts about the same for players like Peerless Price, Larry Tripplett, Bennie Anderson who busted while they were here. So while he's here he sees all of this, and watches the team throw money around this year and recently for players that may not even start. To all, what is he supposed to think? He's supposed to play out the remaining three years and most of his prime just to honor his contract? I don't think so. The team owes it to him to at least get a good faith gesture on the table with a promise of doing something big after the season.

Well then conversely, how about people responding to me at least having the F-ing respect to read what I already wrote so that I don't feel impelled to answer the same F-ing questions over and over again or run the risks of the dogs of hell being unleashed on me calling me names in real mature fashion. I realize that's probably totally unreasonable in your book. You'll quickly note that people that respond in a civil manner to my posts get the same in return. And hell, I had one person in this thread I think, charge me with calling him a name when that wasn't even the case. I mean honestly, are some of you so damned miserable yourselves that even the slightest hint of a criticism about a team throws you off like that?

LOL

Thanks for a civil non defensive response. It's refreshing. I highlighted a key phrase for you in your response. Otherwise once again I will clarify. I said nothing about the caliber of players we are signing per se, rather the money they get for what they are. You say the Kelsay signing was bad in agreement with me. But he's one of the better performing players of the ones I've mentioned. Brad Butler has shown nothing indicative that he's even playing to Kelsay's level. See, we can all say, "did you seem him play last year, he was good,..." etc. But the fact of the matter is that the play of our offense sucked and the line was obviously at the heart of it. We know that Peters is good, we know that Dockery is an above average G although little more. The line wouldn't have been so bad if Butler had been that good. You say that the team is doing a good job of securing "young talent in the right places." But "young" is not necessarily good. It's young, that's all. So when you say "could be Pro Bowlers," yeah, could be. So too could everyone that we release between now and September and cuts to the 53-man roster. But with this team's personnel department track record, how many Pro Bowlers have they actually produced? Not many and few of the ones they have have been entirely by accident or out of position and not due to planning on their end; Peters, McGee, Moorman. But again, we pay too much for what we do get. Many don't want to see that here and make excuses for it. You've admitted it with Kelsay, but if it's true with Kelsay then it's true with Walker and Dockery. We clearly paid too much for Peerless Price two years ago. Butlet got more money than he's proven to be worth at the moment. We're taking a big gamble that Spencer Johnson will reward us with play commensurate with what he got. Kyle Williams got too much by everyone's standard. Meanwhile, Peters, a proven commodity and top half LT in this league, and in a position that is critical to the success of any offense, gets snubbed. And yet again, it would be entirely different if we drafted him as the 1st round talent LT that he is and he were still riding a rookie contract or if he had signed an extension with his abilities as a top LT in this league fully known, but that wasn't the case. McGee was in a similar spot years ago. He wasn't playing well as a CB but his return abilities warranted his getting paid much more. We gave it to him. Peters we simply didn't know what he would attain to. Well now we know, and since this is a very rare exception in this way, the team needs to address it. Having said all that, if the team doesn't have money now then fine, whip something up in a show of good faith with incentives for this season that come out of next season's cap and offer to restructure him this offseason. As I understand it however the team is playing hard ball. And this would all be fine and good, but with the silly contracts that Butler and Kyle Williams just got as a team priority, and recently, that's a real kick in the balls of Peters IMO. We could lose both Williams and Butler right now for the season and it wouldn't have the impact of Peters missing ten games.

Well now at least you're making some F-ing sense. LOL Yes, the FO of the Pats is to be emulated. Instead, we continue to emulate the crap that we've had and hire according to that standard and not theirs, the Chargers', the Colts', Giants', etc. So attaboy! Keep thinking along those lines. My guess is that you're the type of person who will never be happy, even though you'll respond to this that you are. I'll be happy when we finally have a team that can beat other football teams in the NFL by playing football the way it was meant to be played and on fundamentally sound play with the strength of two great lines just like we had in the '90s. If you're happy bringing up the rear of the league in everything and having to rely on enough crappy teams on our schedule so that we can post a winning season, then good for you. Please don't challenge me for wanting more from my team though. Talk about tirades. LOL So keep up the tirade and see how many sympathetic souls you'll find here. I completely understand that you're frustrated with the lack of production that we've seen the past few years, but being a complete d*ck on a message board won't change the situation. I don't care about sympathy. Everyone else's low standards don't affect me. I see things a little differently than you however. What I see is people coming down on me and other fans similar to me with comparable views, being chastised for wanting to correct the issues on the team that continually bring us all "pile of sh--" performance and telling us to like it or shut up. I ask you, where do the issues really lie? LOL I get classified as "a dick" more because most of you that challenge the notions that I/we put forth simply have no answers and as you see it we should just suck up mediocrity if we even get that, slop performance otherwise. I would strongly suggest that the ones with the major issues are the ones that keep making excuses for this crap and have no higher standards that call the performance of the very team that they say they want to excel into question when it's fully known why they suck due to an extensive proven track record of misery. But hey, it'll be funny as usual how you and others turn into what you accuse me of by week 12 but then at that point it will be fully acceptible by your standards, huh. I want to know where the open letters to Wilson are to fire Modrak? Or John Guy? Or why we once again hire a GM and OC with absolutely no experience between them? I suppose that means you enjoy all that and what it produces. It's sort of like a marriage, good times & bad. Not really. In a marriage it's a partnership with both parties equally responsible. Here it's the team insisting that you suck up whatever they push your way. You have absolutely no input other than say what you say here. And it seems to me that if this is a marriage, then your spouse is cheating on you and all you're doing is making excuses as to why the reason for it is you and why you should put up with it for another 20 years. Right. Yup, exactly it. And here's the kicker, you are happy with it, .... apparently. Otherwise I can't explain it.

I don't see any name calling in the post you cite. Thin skin? I mean it was intelligently stated and if you are offended by that, then a message board environment probably isn't for you.

I suppose that the bottom line is that many of you here prefer the way that this team's management has run the team over the last 8 years without a playoff appearance, with only one pathetic 9-7 winning season, and without a playoff win for 12 seasons. That's OK. But a lot of people aren't satisfied with it, including me, and we see exactly why it is occurring and continues to occur since nothing has changed to correct those things besides more of the same. I guess some peoples' standards are just higher than others. Again, which is OK I suppose although difficult to understand in sports where winning and championships are key.

LOL I suppose if I were repeating myself on completely unviable or unsustainable arguments in wishlist fashion it would be fine, huh. LOL Otherwise, IDK, how many people are going to ignore what I've already written and re-ask the same questions over and over again and ignore the real crux of the issues? Answer that and you'll have your answer. Actually it's less than that, but hey, who's counting.

Are you dense?

No, I'm not kidding. Cap went up 7% from '07 to this year. It went up just under 7% from '06 to '07. It went up almost 20% from '05 to '06. You were saying... Since you know so much about the cap, if there is a reason why it's going up for later years in contracts down the road, it has absolutely nothing to do with the current cap. It has to do with the notion that '10 becomes an uncapped year and there's evidence that there are enough owners to keep it that way as the CBA dissolves permanently. So some clubs are signing deals apparently with this in mind and teams for which money is actually no issue. But once again, we're in the weeds on this one. Signing Brad Butler, Spencer Johnson, Kawika Mitchell, Kyle Williams, etc. to more money than Peters is getting is just wrong! We could lose three of those guys and not have it make the impact that will occur if Peters doesn't play. Peters would have been making much more than he is now with a rookie contract had he come into the league as one of the top two ranked LTs. He came in as mystery meat and as a TE/OL tweener with no experience. HE'S AN EXCEPTION!!! Hello!

Do me a favor please. Whip up a chart in excel or whatever contrasting the positives about this team and its play and the negatives. You can start with the negatives that I listed. When you're done, let's see how they stack up against one another. You sound like a camp guard at Ausschwitz telling a prisoner there who's as thin as a nail that he's lucky to have the bread you are giving him because many people throughout Europe don't have any bread that evening.

I'll bet you anything that Evans isn't even on the team next year. If the Bills were serious and Evans wanted to stay, a deal would have been done by now. I'm guessing that he wants out. He's probably waiting to see if Schonert's head is up his a$$ too. give them a chance here and not jump all over them because there is one hold veteran hold out Again, you miss the point entirely. Leave it for our team to take care of all the mediocrity on the roster and to overpay the marginally beyond average, but for the top talent on this team they don't fork it over. Peters and Evans are arguably the two best players on the offense in addition to Lynch. Guys like Brad Butler, Kyle Williams, and Spencer Johnson haven't proven a damn thing and they're getting handsomely paid/rewarded. And Peters is a massive exception to this team. He never had the ability to negotiate a contract as a top LT prospect even like rookies do, much less seasoned LTs entering their prime. You guys are ALL missing that point entirely. Otherwise I jump all over this team for being a bunch of morons. When we manage to get ourselves out of the bottom 25% of teams any given year then perhaps your suggestions will make some sense.

That's not my point at all. In fact, I would typically agree with you. BUT... You cannot have a team that signs all of these players to such ridiculous deals and then expects the best players to suck it up. Kyle Williams, Brad Butler, Chris Kelsay, Dockery, Walker, Price last year, Tripplett then, Royal two years ago, Spencer Johnson now, etc., etc., etc. all got more money to play their positions than they are worth. Some of them will be backups. Johnson or Williams for example as there's only one open spot next to Stroud. j You cannot spend money like that for backups, rotational players, and marginally above average players otherwise and expect Pro Bowlers on your team to be happy. I mean let's take one case. One and a half years ago or so they extended Schobel. Fine, good. But then within 12 months after that they pay Kelsay even more per year than the extremely generous deal that Schobel got. What message does that send other than that your FO apparently doesn't know what it's doing by paying barely adequate starters money like they gave Kelsay which put him high up the list of what DEs get joining far more productive ones and ones that at least have a knack for making big plays in big games instead of only against the sorriest of defenses? What did anyone expect Schobel to say? Frankly he got more than he deserved given his age, but that contract to Kelsay was flat out stupid! I would have let him walk before paying that. We could have gotten that performance with half the loot. It has nothing to do with Peters in a vacuum, so please don't think that way. That's the way the team thinks. As well, Peters situation is a bit unusual too. He wasn't "planned" or drafted in round 1 or 2 as a top OT prospect. He was an UFA TE that learned to play RT, then LT, and has grown and emerged. Frankly, I probably will say that when Peters gets a new deal that it was too much also, IDK yet as I haven't seen it. But that really is an indictment of a franchise now known for overpaying players. The proof in the pudding on that one is look at where we are and what kind of players are getting the big bucks on this team. Our total contracts are right in line with most of the other 32 teams, yet we suck. Ranked dead last or very close to it last year almost across the board except in special teams and McGee's, Lindell's, and Moorman's contracts are relatively tame in contrast. Good teams for the money that we're spending get much, much more from them. But hey, that entails having a decent GM like Polian, OOOPS, whom we once had but saw the wisdom to fire. Not as if he's had much success around the NFL or anything. Viva La Donahoe/Levy/Brandon! These guys don't know WTF they're doing keepthefaith. It's that simple.