krazykat

Sorry I didn't get to this sooner BJ, I had business to attend to. on 1, I suppose it's possible, but I don't think it's a huge factor. The more likely factor is that Peters is the best OL-man on this team yet the third highest paid, and when you consider all 9 linemen on both sides, no higher than 6th highest paid behind Walker, Dockery, Schobel, Kelsay, and Stroud, and probably close to Butler, Williams, and Johnson, two of which are likely backups. That to me is all that anyone should need to know in a game where contracts typically play out to the level of talent. On 2, "overpaid" is somewhat subjective. Where it gets less subjective is comparing how good other players that get the same amount of money are although there's an enormous amount of subjectivity there as well. As to Schobel and his agent came to the team. The team knew (common sense although I'm not sure anyone thought that through) that Schobel would need a new contract making him higher paid than the mediocre Kelsay. Otherwise, Schobel was at the end of his prime and had little leverage. The team also wasn't nearly on as thin ice as it is this year. They could withstand, and did, yet another losing season. That cannot happen this year. As to Butler, I have no idea what you're talking about. He started one season, one of the worst in Bills history for the offense. Pick your poison as to why it sucked, but clearly the line had a good chunk to do with it. Now, you probably want us all to believe that Walker's good, Dockery too, and we all know that Peters is good, and clearly you think that Butler was worth the $9M in new money that we gave him, but at some point we must assume that everyone along the line isn't quite as good as we think or we wouldn't have been dead last or second to last in most relevant categories last year offensively. Regardless, Peters has proven a lot more than Butler has and unlike Schobel is entering his prime, not exiting it. And yeah, it could very well "probably be" many things, but Peters also didn't show up for OTAs if I'm not mistaken and the writing's been on the wall that he may not have shown up for a good number of days prior to camp even opening, so the team had warning. And I'm not defending Peters per se, but I am suggesting that all of this aside, Peters definitely deserves a damn site more than G Butler and DTs Johnson and Williams, and even G Dockery and RT Walker. As to Stroud, we can debate since Stroud has a much more vivid history of impact performance. I'm also suggesting that apart from Stroud, we could miss anyone of those other players with a relatively seemless transition when to think the same about Peters isn't so. Either way, you talk about Peters and Parker not reaching out, but I don't see much from the team either.

Schobel got fair market value for his past play. You think he earned his contract last year for all of that guaranteed money he's already pocketed? Low standards if so. Freeney's still in his prime, Schobel's out of his. I'd suggest you compare apples to apples.

Maybe, but Brandon will have already lost credibility at that point and I'm not sure that would be good for the organization. That's the problem when you come out with such hardline positions. The Bills made this mess, not Peters. That's the way I see it. As a result it's up to the team to make the first serious concession in this negotiation and IMO that means being willing to just talk prior to Peters coming to camp. They can find out exactly what he'll be happy with and then say OK, run some drills, see the doctors, and even put some preseason injury clauses in there that will assure the team that he's fine now. If he gets hurt later, TFB, that's the NFL. But Peters isn't the one that's been writing big checks to backups and players that are getting paid what he gets to not even start or to starters that don't bring half of what he does and is capable of bringing.

Backpeddling I see. Have they said that that would be adequate? Has Brandon publicly stated or even privately stated that if Peters gets checked out by the team's physicians and can run some simple drills to show that he has nothing major wrong with him that he will negotiate with him? No. Sure hasn't. Kinda makes your point utterly moot. So your point then remains what Brandon's is. Show up to camp and risk injury or we're not talking. Peters and his agent say fine, you have more to lose than we do, and they're right, and are holding out. So that's where we are.

It's all business. This is really just another indictment of the organization IMO. They always shell out money for the marginal but let players like Pat Williams, Ruben Brown, Evans, Peters walk. And honestly, does anyone not think that they couldn't have found a G to give us what Butler does for half the money. Or what Johnson does for half the money. Of course just like Johnson, they don't want to play here unless they get extra for doing it. And hey, rightly so. We have no winning dividend in the rear view mirror.

Fine, then why do you feel compelled to read them. Just use the ignore function. But quit bitching about something that you repeatedly choose to do.

Keep chattering partner. It's obvious that you have it out for me. Do you know what Peters had surgery on this offseason? Apparently not. Was it for his groin?

Yeah, I agree Kelly.

Boy, you're right on top of things, huh. Do you even know what he had surgery on? I mean what the surgery was for? This isn't even worth addressing. And you know, like I've said in other posts, the team can feel free to ask him to come to OBD and run some drills such as "jogging." If at that point, and maybe it's happened and I've just missed it, he refuses, well then perhaps there's cause for concern. But as of now I read nothing that an offer to evaluate him without his risking injury on the field has even been made. And you know, you may very well be right, but until he begins refusing to even show up for a physical I'd like to see our team reach out a little bit more than insisting he show up and play. Is Peters wrong? Probably. But the team is gonna be in a world of hurt if this continues.

Show me a groin injury that required surgery and then take the percentage of groin injuries that have occured and tell me what percent have ended the careers of players just moving into their primes or under say the age of 28 and correspondingly what percentage of any surgery incidents you can find from routine groin injuries ended careers.

Right, and post such as this by you add so much to a debate. ADD?

PLEASE, PLEASE do!

You know, I also have to say that it's incredible that some people here talked about Peters as if he is the focal point to our making our offense go up til this preseason, and which he may very well be. But now all of a sudden the same people talking about how he hasn't proven nearly that much, or is overrated which I might agree with, or that he's all but expendable. It reveals a fickleness that entirely removes any objective analysis from the equation of our having a good team.

Great post! And what would it be like if we all agreed. As to frustrating, it's frustrating to me too. But we have to look at culpability here. Allow me to use an analogy. Let's suppose you're best friend wins a multi-million dollar lottery and starts giving all kinds of people that he barely knows or are just acquaintences $10k apiece but gives you, his best buddy for a long time nothing. How would that make you feel? Does he owe you something? No, obviously not. But by handing out money to people that he cares less about and who have done less for him over the years and not giving you a dime, he makes a statement, no? It's the same thing here. Yes, he did get a hefty raise two years ago, but that was only "hefty" because he was getting UFA type money to begin with but providing much more. Now I agree with you that Peters is at fault in this, but this situation wouldn't have come up, purely my opinion but a very reasonable one, if the Bills hadn't started shelling out Peters like money to guys like Mitchell, Johnson, Butler. Again, it's your best friend shelling out money to everyone but you. They're no more proven that Peters is and even less so. But the Bills are at fault too. I haven't read anything that says that Brandon is waiting at the local Tim Horton's to meet with Peters either. Peters wants to talk now and Brandon says no, show up first. Well suppose Peters shows up and does get injured? Wouldn't that take something off of his leverage, especially if that injury means missing time this season? Clearly it would. So is Peters being unreasonable from that angle? I don't think so. Again, the team needs to reconcile these contracts they're handing out to backups, rotational players, and completely unproven and average starters to Evans and Peters, two players truly capable of making an impact unlike the other signings of good money. You're right, both sides do need each other badly. But I'm just not sure what Brandon thinks he's doing. This team absolutely needs to post a winning season this year! Mission critical or we can all look forward to calls for Jauron's dismissal and therefore another change at the top. No one's going to be patient with three straight losing seasons by a coach that's only lost throughout his career for the most part with no evidence that he's even an average coach much less more apart from irrelevant things like "the players like him." Brandon can't afford a losing season as a GM, especially if Evans walks and this Peters thing is a big reason why when he's the man responsible for patching it together. Can Peters afford to sit out? In one sense, no, he can't, but financially in another, sure, he can. In fact, his value skyrockets if we do poorly without him because if anything it will reveal, at least on paper, how much not having him cost this team. Would that result in a huge contract next season? Who knows, maybe, maybe not. But what it would do is give Brandon a very short leash as the new GM of this team, again, likely with media statements as to how he was out of his league and that kinda stuff. You can disagree and view it differently, but based on what you're saying, seems to me that the question is which can each afford to have happen least: Peters lose out financially likely only for the short term, or the team post another losing season in this very critical year for the team. Anyone seeing it differently IMO is missing the much bigger picture. IMO this team can weather that a lot less gracefully than Peters can. Peters may come and go and who knows, if tensions get too high and Parker and Brandon both play enough hard ball, Peters may not even be with the team next year at this point. I cannot imagine that if this thing goes on much longer, particularly if not accompanied by a winning season, that any good will will be generated as a result. But the Bills are the Bills. They are an organization and one that is represented by the same Buffalo (both logo and city) and one that remains constant in that sense from year to year. It's been a struggling franchise and one that hasn't been in the playoffs for what, like 8 years and one that hasn't won a playoff game in like 12 or so, 13 if we don't this year. It needs to enter the season with both feet forward. It's been shelling out retarded money as if it were water in a restaurant. But just like your best friend who won the lottery, they forgot to give some to their best friends. Whether you would still be a friend of that person is one thing as the relationship wasn't a business one to begin with. But for both Peters and Evans it is a business relationship. Almost entirely. think differently if you will, but it is as we all know that football is a business first. That's why the little guy is getting priced out of going to games. To wrap this up, I believe that as a result of their own business actions, the Bills have turned themselves into an organization that is more business oriented than most meaning that players only come here for money. We hardly ever if ever get a bargain player that just wants to come here because we're winning for the simple reason that that's not the case as it might be with the Pats, Colts, Chargers, Jags, Steelers, Giants, Cowboys, etc. That's a position that this team has created for itself. They've chosen to overpay Dockery and Walker and Tripplett two years ago, and Fowler, and Peerless Price, and Royal, and now Williams and IMO Butler and Johnson too. Maybe they had to otherwise those players woudln't have come here or stayed here, IDK although that's likely and a distinct possibility at least in several cases. You say that "Peters has chosen the path of confrontational negotiations which is an unpleasant way to go about things." But I don't see anything less confrontational about Brandon suggesting that he's willing to redo the deal, but only after Peters puts himself at risk, in essence, for injury. I mean if all the team wants to know is if he's injured, they could say meet us at the practice bubble at OBD and we're going to have you run a few minor drills that won't risk you getting injured yet will prove to us that you're not injured. But have they done that? I haven't read anything about that. So I would argue that Brandon's simply trying to make a name for himself here by playing hardball like the Pats do yet without the winning track record. OK, so I'm being a little facetious, but IMO he's trying to make a statement that you don't screw with the team. That works in some cases, but not with a team that will rely heavily on the player that they are playing hardball with to simply make it to .500 much less post a winning season. Because I don't think there are too many, even here in homerville, that think that our offense is going to do much without Peters anchoring the LT position. Edwards will get killed with Walker or Chambers in there.

Have he or his agent stated that he wants to be paid like the highest paid LTs? I haven't heard that. I also disagree that the Bills will automatically make him their highest paid lineman. They haven't done anything with Evans yet and if I were Peters I'd use that as the primary gauge. Now the team's hands may be tied financially, but they could at least do something going forward. As to the Schobel situation, there are similarities, but mostly in what players of lesser value got playing the same or similar positions. All similarities end there. Schobel got a huge deal as he was leaving his prime. Peters is just entering his and can fully be expected to continue to improve whereas Schobel can only be expected to get worse. I still think that it's on the team to reach out to Peters and his agent and at least begin to explain where they stand on this contrasted with their giving Butler (this year) a seemingly inflated extension also with even less on record to suggest that he's gonna even be an average G, and Dockery and Walker's deals last year. If they can explain that to them, then progress will be made. If not, then they're just going to have to face the music from the band that they hired. As to "having to get into camp," I could agree with you and we all could agree, but the reality is that holdouts are standard ploys by high profile players and just a part of the business and anyone thinking that loyalty to the team by players comes first, especially here in Buffalo, is deluding themselves. It's business and the business part of this organization just doesn't function well.

If the Bills don't know all that already, then time for a new GM and front office. Besides, have they even been willing to talk reneg? Seems to me that Brandon has made the team's position clear, they're not budging including even talking until Peters shows up to camp. Or is that not correct? We and the team do know that Butler is getting paid comparably and both Walker and Dockery are getting more. That's all that the Bills FO and Brandon should need to know in order to at least begin discussions. The sentiment here appears to be that Peters has much more to lose than the team does when that's not at all the case. They both have something to lose, but Peters sitting out for any considerable length of time, which we're fast approaching and particularly with the team making plans for Peters not showing up, has the ability to set this team back for years if they cannot overcome his holdout and post a winning season. That point can be argued, but there isn't much room for arguing that a third straight losing season in Buffalo would begin to set the wheels in motion from one or more angles for some major changes. There also isn't much room for arguing that this team takes a major setback without Peters at LT. It's interesting how all the rah-rah types here that constantly talk about what great fans of this team they are don't seem to care.

You don't eh. Please don't take this in a bad way, but I'm not surprised. Go to Bills Daily or elsewhere and check out the contract he got from us in '06 when we could have signed him for veteran minimum yet opted not to. And if he wouldn't have signed for that, like many of us said back then, who cares, let him bag groceries. He didn't even provide vet min value over the past two seasons, predictably.

Talk about slow witted clowns, not to mention a-holes, if you've read all of my handful of posts on this topic you'd know that I understand that Peters has something to lose you moron. First of all this thread hasn't revolved around you and your narrowly focused and completely unobjective position based on your guesses as to something that can't even remotely be substantiated. My responses began in addressing the question in the thread. Whether you liked my answer or not, TFB. I didn't insult anyone nor did I condescend like several others in this thread. Peters had an injury last year at the end of the season that really shouldn't have been even a minor issue moving forward and a very routine one that rarely if ever requires surgery. So if you want to think that he has some kind of injury that is lasting, then feel free, but if the team's doctors, experts, that you all seem to trust implicitly diagnosed his problem accurately last season, then there should be nothing at all to worry about. What is far more relevant that few of you seem to believe is, is what Peters and his agent have been saying and which is supported by the team's own moves and decisions. Could he be hurt such that it will impact his play to a very significant extent? Sure, of course he could be but there's absolutely nothing on record to suggest that. Nada! There is stuff on record however that makes it clear that the Bills don't value him nearly as much as they value other parts of the team, including backups and rotational players. That's a fact whether it was intentional or not or whether you believe it or not. The contracts that free agents and existing players got are quantifiable hard factual bits of evidence that can be put up against Peters' contract and mathematically evaluated. When one makes that evaluation Peters' position becomes clear whether you agree with it or not. But more importantly,you talk as if he's the only one with something to lose while the team has nothing to lose. Let me paint an obvious picture here since you seem to have tremendous difficulty reasoning past what's immediately in front of you in bold letters. Suppose Peters no-shows for the entire season, a distinct possibility regardless of the chances, OR, see that's a conjunction that denotes a relationship, he even misses some games or shows up so late that his conditioning hinders the play of the team (that you say you're such a big fan of) to the extent that it contributes to us having another losing season. Do you honestly think that the media, most fans, or anyone else is going to continue to suggest that Jauron knows what he's doing, or that perhaps Brandon is out of his league. I realize that in your little shell of a world of this message board community Jauron farts and everyone smells fresh pasta, but to the objective outsider, another losing season would be horrible for this franchise. Can we stand another three years of rebuilding under a new coach that will want "his own QB" again, and has his own new agenda? I know that I'm well past that point and I know that I speak for a damn good portion of Bills fans on that matter. Also, you and others probably seemed fine with the signings of backups like Tripplett, a known backup, Royal, a known marginal TE, Fowler, who has proven low end too, and Peerless Price whom no team would offer even veteran minimum too, to far greater than bargain basement contracts, yet, for Peters let me get this straight, you're against the team budging because he "might be" injured and with absolutely no evidence to suggest that he is and with all the evidence in the world that he's being entirely on the level regarding his position? Is that it colin? Yeah, you're a sharp one. Of course in the world of a good chunk of this message board you as avid fans would all be really pleased with yet another season in which we could line up the excuses as to why we didn't win the big one. (I only speak to a portion of this community as many of you have your heads on straight and are capable of interacting without child-like tantrums the nature of colin's here) So, no matter what you think of Peters, the FO, yourself, me, or your lame-brained inability to grasp the big picture, perhaps you'd better know that he's injured before you start assuming it for the team and for all of Bills fandom. And how would he have gotten injured, racing to the chinese buffet at Wegmans and tripping over half a dozen people? And who knows, maybe he just doesn't have the heart to play anymore and we should make that the focal point of our offering to him also. We have sure as hell made decisions on comparable merits in the past with this FO in place, that's for sure.

And how do you know? What specifically are you a fan of? And please, don't just say the Bills. What, the players, coach, GM, janitor, front office, ...? Are you satisfied with the Bills' team history since 2000? What would you as a fan, if you are one, like to see for this team? Has that happened? If not, then why not in your opinion? What is the reason for those things not having happened? I realize this post is so utterly antisocial and antagonizing that you won't be able to handle it or answer the questions and that I run the risk of further insults, but the questions stand nonetheless. If you'd like to engage in a real discussion, please, feel free.

Yeah, some very good points in there. At least I offer solutions other than "let's just trust people that have only failed or have no proven track record of success." At least I can dissociate myself with the team policies and moves that have brought us this losing team. And what, it's not losing? That's all we've done to date since 2000 with one season of an exception built on false perceptions. Otherwise, I'm very sorry that you disagree with me, but when you challenge my points with nonsense that I in turn challenge, why are you getting so upset with me? Talk about terrible posts. You can't even stay on topic. But hey, you've got the mob mentality behind you which by right of popular vote means what, that your nonsense is meaningful?

Unfortunately this league doesn't work on what's fair and right though. Perceptions often if not usually lead the way. Take Schobel for example. He's not worth that last contract we gave him, but the perceptions were, and correctly so, that he needed to be paid more than Kelsay questioning whether Kelsay was worth the huge contract that he got. I don't think so. What the Bills need to do regarding this is to look at the dropoff in play by having Peters replaced and what the line looks like after that. Not that what they think has any credibility anymore, but if they think that and want to hinge their futures in Buffalo on the notion that this line isn't much different, or enough to warrant a restructuring/raise for Peters, than it is now, then they can take that gamble. If not, then they need to get Peters in here. I personally think that Peters is a little bit overrated. He seems to have played better in '06 than in '07. But he's still the best lineman that we have. Dockery and Walker are also overrated. And before anyone jumps on me for suggesting that, you don't trail the league in ball movement and 1st down conversions with a solid line regardless of who your RB and QB are. Anyway, I only said that to suggest that maybe the line isn't much different without Peters. Who knows. I can't imagine that to be the case though.

LOL Of course. Do you know that Peters is not healthy, or are you just guessing? Otherwise, yeah, not a "worthless point" you made or anything. LMAO Funny, everyone's opinion here means more than the facts season after season. If your opinions meant more than a hill of beans, we'd have made the playoffs three or four years since 2000.

I'm not "trying to turn it into anything." How about relenting on the adversarial approach. Why are so many of you incapable, seemingly, of carrying on a simple discussion or debate without all kinds of personal barbs and insults and condescension? Did I specifically say anything about your positions? No. It's entirely foolish in a market environment, which this is totally, to ignore what other players in that environment are getting. You are insinuating that it's irrelevant when it's completely germane. His agent, which you say you made your comments about, doesn't operate in a vacuum although apparently you think he does since you think that what other lesser players on our team get is immaterial based on your implications in your tirade about me personally and not the issue at hand. His agent is reacting to what he sees, not indiscriminantly holding out all of the players that he handles. He has his reasons and no one can argue that he has no basis, not even Brandon. What we do with Peters hinges entirely on what we've done with the rest of the team. It might make sense in your world for the best player on the team or one of the top few, to be paid like the 15th or wherever he falls. It doesn't to me. How much the other players are getting pushes him down that list, whether OL or not. They also consume the team's resources and cap space also making it a big factor. Naturally you see none of that. Fine, but don't blame me.

Oh, I'm a fan. I'm a fan of the team and its play on the field, not of the GMs, coaches, and other front office people that keep screwing it up like you are. My expectations are also a teensy bit higher than yours and I have little patience for losing although I fully understand that you enjoy it and help perpetuate it with your support for non-performing aspects to the team from players to front office types. I realize I'm talking to the wind here too.

They claim that he was the reason for their success.