Wraith

You're overthinking this. It's not about trying to decide what the route was supposed to be. It's simply watching where the receiver was when the quaterback let go of the ball.

This is the text of the rule: "Intentional grounding of a forward pass is a foul: loss of down and 10 yards from previous spot if passer is in the field of play or loss of down at the spot of the foul if it occurs more than 10 yards behind the line or safety if passer is in his own end zone when ball is released. Intentional grounding will be called when a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion. Intentional grounding will not be called when a passer, while out of the pocket and facing an imminent loss of yardage, throws a pass that lands at or beyond the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player(s) have a realistic chance to catch the ball (including if the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or end line)." Nothing about distances at all. Mike Carey's "explanation" is complete crap. The name of the penalty is "intentional grounding" after all. A miscommunication is, by definition, not intentional. Carey claimed a lot of things that are not supported by the rule book. I wonder what CBS is paying for his dignity.

This argument is logically inconsistent. If they're going for it on fourth down, then they're treating that possession as if it's their last. Therefore, running the time down is a positive, not a negative.

In case anyone had doubts, Fred Jackson confirmed earlier today that the plan was to try for the offsides and there was no play to run. I'd love to know whether the plan was to call a timeout or take the delay of game penalty. Both options are dumb.

A lot of mental hoops being jumped through to avoid admitting being wrong. The changes in the passing game between 2005 and now are not relevant. The median completion percentage among qualifying QBs was 60.6% in 2005, exactly the same as 2013. Orton was below the median then and he is well above it now. He has improved. Does anyone arguing this point actually know how to back up their opinion with supporting evidence? I mean seriously, one of you is trying to offer up the limits of their imagination as a counter argument. (By the way, Losman once threw for 5 TDs in 5 quarters in 2006, so I have no problem envisioning pretty much any QB pulling off that feat).

Are you seriously trying to argue that Orton hasn't improved over the years? That he was good all along and the rules just changed? Let's normalize things by comparing Orton to his peers: Senior Year of College (2004): 60.7% was good for 3rd in the Big Ten, Not on the chart nationally Rookie Year (2005): 51.6% was good for 33rd (out of 34) in the NFL. Only person he was better than was J.P. Losman For comparison, Manuel: Senior Year of College (2012): 68.0% was good for 1st in the ACC and 10th in the nation. Rookie Year (2013): 58.8% was good for 28th (out of 37) in the NFL. Somehow beating out big names like Matthew Stafford and Colin Kaepernick. Orton was very bad. Hopefully now he is good. Improvement in this area is very possible.

That is a weird argument to make considering who our other quarterback is. College: Orton = 786/1336 (58.8% Completion) Manuel = 600/897 (66.9% Completion) First 2 Seasons Pro: Orton = 233/448 (52.0% Completion) Manuel = 256/437 (58.6% Completion) Orton played in 13 or more games in four out of his first five seasons. In only one of those seasons (2009, Denver, 62.1%) was his completion percentage better than Manuel's number this year (58.0%). Orton is a great example of how a quarterback can develop this skill as a professional.

No interest in understanding why one QB has been better at producing points than the other? Just "points! points!". Alright then.

What does this have to due with Orton's sack rate being related to (or not being related to) his desire to hold on to the ball to target the wide receivers down field?

That's been my whole point this entire thread. The difference between Orton and Manuel boils to two things only: 1) Orton has been more accurate 2) Manuel has been better at avoiding the sacks. Orton's accuracy so far appears to have outweighed his increased propensity for taking the sack. Everything else is either over thinking things or applying a bias.

This is a fine example of why stats are necessary, despite some folks claims that all they need is their eyes. The eyes lie. Kyle Orton doesn't take more sacks than EJ Manuel because he targets wide receivers more! Orton targets wide receivers less than Manuel does! Manuel has 127 pass attempts this season, of which 28.3% went to running backs, 11.0% went to tight ends, and 60.6% went to wide receivers. Orton has 136 pass attempts this season, of which 25.0% went to running backs, 19.9% went to tight ends, and 55.1% went to wide receivers.

In this case it really doesn't. Orton's significantly better YPA number is due almost entirely to his better completion percentage. Orton and Manuels YPC (Yards per completion) are very similar (11.8 vs. 11.1).

I meant during the game.

Is anyone else aggravated by the lack of response by the officials? The broadcast showed both Carpenter and Orton complaining at separate times, only to be given a blank stare and a shrug in return. Make a freakin' announcement and flag the home team if you have to.

Don't let WEO try to deceive you: Q1 7/8 (87.5%), 84 Yards (10.50 YPA), 0 TD, 0 INT, 1 Sack, 110.4 Rating Q2 3/4 (75.0%), 13 Yards (3.25 YPA), 1 TD, 0 INT, 0 Sack, 117.7 Rating Q3 1/4 (25.0%), 16 Yards (4.00 YPA), 0 TD, 1 INT, 0 Sack, 4.2 Rating Q4 4/5 (80.0%), 40 Yards (8.00 YPA), 0 TD, 0 INT, 0 Sack, 100.0 Rating OT 1/1 (100.0%), 20 Yards (20.00 YPA), 0 TD, 0 INT, 0 Sack, 118.8 Rating Manuel had a short bad stretch in an otherwise solid game.

The references to the locker room culture by some of the scouts/coaches/player personnel/executive types is incredibly annoying to me. I have already lost count of how many quotes I have read from these groups saying that Sam's draft stock is going to drop because they're afraid of what will happen to the unity of the locker room. Am I the only who thinks that Sam is going to be treated better by his new teammates in the locker room than by the groups I listed above? The players in the locker room are overwhelmingly young and are part of a very accepting generation. The locker room is already an incredible melting pot of races, classes, religions, and view points. I think it is more likely that these player personnel types, who are far less diverse, are projecting some of their own biases about not only homosexuality but also about modern athletes in general. The reaction from his Missouri teammates is very encouraging to me. I hope that is represenative.

It is only two scores if one of them is a touchdown. As Bill Barnwell at Grantland will tell you, 4th and 1 is a TD about 60% of the time. Drives from the far side of the 50 result in touchdowns far less than 60%. They needed a TD and that was their best chance at it.

There was nothing wrong with that particular throw. Graham simply can't track the ball and run at the same time.

The infuriating part to me is the inconsistency. Think back to Goodwin's "fumble" against New England from Week 1. He had far less possession of that pass than he did on the play from yesterday, yet that one is a catch and fumble and this was an incomplete. Might as well flip a coin.

The guy has been kicked off of every team he has been on since high school. Why are you wasting even a little bit of energy defending him?

You are aware that the prevent defense is specifically design to prevent long catches, right?

Hadn't had a big game until this week?! Didn't break a Bills sack record in Week 2?

I know some people like to be contrarians, but don't be silly. This isn't basketball. The offense doesn't get to sneak one hand in and get a jump ball call with the possession arrow always in their favor. Tate might have gotten a both hands on the ball at impact, but on the way down his right hand is clearly off the ball and it's not even clear if his left hand is still in contact. He re-establishes contact while on the ground. You also can't blame the replay official for this debacle because simultaneous possession is not a reviewable play.

The cellphone question was in regards to watching while in the airport.

Yeah, but his receivers had to reach or even jump for some of those completions. Think of how much YAC he's leaving on the table.