SoTier
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2 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:
Good job Cleveland lol.
If they are trading him I don't expect much here. It also means our FO is really concerned about our WRs.
Kinda late for being "really concerned" don't you think? They didn't bother drafting any WRs until the 6th and 7th rounds of 2018. It's more like they're bargain hunting at a rummage sale.
1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:They had 11 1st rd draft picks in 7 yrs between 2009-2016. NONE are still on the team. That’s almost impossible to do but they succeeded.
^^^
1 hour ago, LeGOATski said:Holy hell. That team should be moved down to the AAF. They belong in the minor leagues until they prove themselves.
The Bills haven't done significantly better ...
2016 ... Shaq Lawson
2015 ... no first rounder
2014 ... Sammy Watkins
2013 ... EJ Manuel
2012 ... Stephon Gilmore
2011 ... Marcell Dareus
2010 ... CJ Spiller
2009 ... Aaron Maybin & Eric Wood
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23 minutes ago, aceman_16 said:
I can understand the frustration of the "they can do no wrong" garbage. However, Whaley NEVER committed to a QB in the draft (or really anywhere) like Beane has. If one were to ask most knowledgeable football professionals... they would find out selling out for a franchise QB you believe in is the EXACT gamble to take. Take the sword for a wide receiver is myopic at best and negligent at worse. Whaley is no longer here due to his selling of the farm for a wr IN A SUPER DEEP WIDE RECEIVER CLASS (which makes it infinitely worse).
Excuse me, but where is this "committment" to a "QB in the draft (or really anywhere)" with Beane or McDermott? I don't see much commitment other than to spend a fortune in draft picks to select a first round QB... and then not look to improve either his protection or targets through the draft or in FA. The Bills lost 3 solid OLers during the off season, and they've replaced none of them quality-wise. They didn't draft another offensive player until the very end of the fifth round ... not exactly the area of the draft likely to yield an OLer or WR who can step in and help out his QB as a rookie ... if ever.
It may very well be that there weren't any good OL or WR prospects available when the Bills turns came up but the Bills also have not appeared to be scouring the waiver wire, street FAs, and the other trashpiles very hard to possibly improve either their WRs or OL, and God only knows, both units could use improvement. Furthermore, if they truly had a commitment to any QB -- or to the offense period -- why did they not re-sign either Robert Woods or Marquise Goodwin when they were clearly disillusioned with Watkins.
"Commitment" to something means more than simply going out and spending resources to acquire something. It means making sure that that something that you've acquired can be successful. Sometimes, that means spending a lot more on supporting that thing than you originally spent getting it. I think NFL QBs are like that because they aren't going to be successful without an OL to protect them and WRs/TEs to catch their passes -- and RBs to give them options. IOW, a commitment to getting a franchise QB means a commitment to building a full fledged NFL offense with all the parts at least being average. That's not the Bills under McDermott/Beane. They dismantled the modestly successful offense with average or better components the Bills had under Ryan/Whaley and replaced it with a first round QB and 30-year-old RB and not too much else. It's not a commitment to offensive football at all, and it sure isn't a commitment to helping a young QB become an accomplished NFL starter.
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3 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:
They gave up some, maybe more than I was happy with, but not as much as some fans were clamoring for spending on the top QB.
So, I wouldn't call it too much myself at this time.
Give it a season or two and my opinion on this may change.
That was my point. Whaley's picks have already been judged, but McDermott (who may have actually been in charge of both the 2017 and 2018 drafts) and Beane's players have a grand total of one season of NFL play. Three plus years down the road, they may look like heroes or idiots but right now we don't know ... although certain TBD members post as if the Bills won the Lombardi last season when all they did is squeak into the playoff because Baltimore's pass defense had a collective brain fart in the closing minutes of the final game of the regular season.
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18 hours ago, Foreigner said:
The Pats are looking for WRs, so brought in veteran WR Eric Decker for a workout yesterday.
You would think that the Bills who did not even attempt to address perhaps the worst WR core in the league
during the off season, would have tried this. The situation with the OL, with Wood & Incognito gone, and same old,
same old Mills and Miller who are nowhere near the top of the league, helps one understand why the Bills
are picked where they are for this year. Hard for any QB to have success when teams know the top talent
to stop is McCoy.
In case you haven't noticed, any criticism of McDermott and Beane is not allowed by the TBD Fanboys.
The Bills appear to be noticeably disinterested in improving either their WRs or their OLers via the waiver wire, which is, and always has been, a common means for teams to improve weak units. The Bills have brought in numerous defensive players before TC looking for the proverbial "diamonds in the rough", so they obviously do believe in trying out FAs. It also makes their not looking at players to possibly improve their worse two units speaks volumes about the Bills priorities ... that offense doesn't matter.
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22 hours ago, aceman_16 said:
I agree with your general premise - ALL GMs have hits and misses. However, the trade ups that this regime has been doing 1) make sense in team building and hole filling and 2) don't sell the farm FOR A WIDE receiver in a DEEP wide receiver class!
If one can't see the difference, then they are just stuck in their own confirmation bias or being a troll.
There's nothing to "see". The only "differences" are:
a) McDermott/Beane are currently TBD darlings so they can do no wrong in the eyes of their fanboys;
b) there hasn't been enough time for McDermott/Beane draftees to be judged as failures.
McDermott/Beane's trade-ups in 2018 dwarf all of Whaley's. They gave up so much to get Allen that if he fails, I don't think that they can survive.
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7 minutes ago, teef said:
ok. so before you were complaining that allen couldn't beat out two average/below average qbs in mccarron and peterman. now if allen wins the job, it's because the bills gave him no competition. do you see how you're playing this from both sides so that no matter what happens, you can be upset about it?
I never complained about Allen at all. I linked an article in which the author claimed that as part of his reason for why the Bills will implode in 2018. Keep your facts straight.
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8 minutes ago, eball said:
I can't figure out if you're trolling or serious, because that is some whacked-out stuff you're dishing up. There is absolutely NO evidence of either Beane or McD feeling this way, and it's actually pretty ludicrous for you to even suggest it.
I've noticed that you like to label posters you don't agree with as "trolls". I'm crushed. NOT.
Get back to me when the Bills offense isn't ranked in the bottom third of the NFL in other categories than rushing.
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9 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:
What makes a failed starter better competition that a guy who hasn't had his chance yet? A failed starter is a #2 QB or back up QB....just like AJ McCaron is.
The key word in my post was "pretend". The better competition is having a legit starter, even a low level one, so that Allen could have a real standard to measure himself against -- and Bills coaches and fans, too. If Allen beats out McCarron and Peterman, it tells no one anything about whether he can be a decent NFL starter. If he beat out Taylor, we'd at least have an idea of his base. If he failed to beat out Taylor in his first TC (most likely), then he'd have at least an intermediate goal to aim for.
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11 minutes ago, teef said:
then you are trying very, very hard to be pessimistic.
The last time I looked, teams need to score more points than the other team in order to win games. I don't see the current Bills being able to do that with much frequency for the foreseeable future. What I see is a GM and HC who seem to either dismiss offense or view it as a necessary evil. It's like they feel that they drafted a QB high in the first round, made sure that he's got a clear path to the starting role, and that's all they need to do with the offense.
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8 hours ago, beerme1 said:
I do
Nobody actually thinks AJ or Peterman would ever qualify as a franchise QB. Do they?
I am all in on McBeane. We haven't had brains like these running this operation in a l o n g time. I 100% trust the process and it's year two of them. Broke the playoff drought year one and legitimately bought time to do whatever the hell it is that they want to do. All in. Trust the process. 100% hand them the keys to the car. Defend Our Dirt. I'm in.
Will you still be "in" after a 2 or 3 win season in which the Bills fail to score an offensive TD in 4 or more games? What about multiple losing seasons?
1 hour ago, matter2003 said:How much does this say about Allen versus how much it says about the other 2 guys?
Basically Allen just needs to beat out 2 scrubs.
This really disturbs me. For all the change in ownership, FO, and coaching staff, the Bills seem to be handling their QBs in 2018 just like they did they did in 2013.
2013
- released Fitzpatrick before the draft
- signed Kevin Kolb as FA - history of numerous injuries over his career
- drafted EJ Manuel in the first round of the draft
- other QBs: Thad Lewis (udfa), Jeff Tuel (udfa)
2018
- traded Taylor before the draft
- signed AJ McCarron as FA - spent his entire career as a backup
- drafted Josh Allen in the first round of the draft
- other QBs: Nate Peterman (5th rounder)
For those of you who don't remember 2013, Kolb failed to make it even to the first preseason game, apparently tripping on a bathmat and suffering yet another injury, opening the door for EJ Manuel to become the starter as he then had such great competition. The Bills in 2018 seem to be much more open about eliminating Allen's competition: they didn't even bother to sign failed starter to pretend to give Allen competition.
The more I see of McDermott/Beane regime, the more I'm seeing the same old disinterest in winning football games often enough to make the playoffs more than once every 2 decades.
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1 hour ago, teef said:
come on So...did you actually read what they said about the bills? the first paragraph alone is absurd, and just wrong. to post that in order to prove some angry point is a bit much.
So it was one stupid comment, which I'm sure you've never made. The substance of the article is about teams likely to have problems this season, and most of the teams named seem likely candidates, including the Bills.
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17 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:
Allen is from Firebaugh California... a farm town... he is a country boy
So?
12 hours ago, John from Riverside said:You need to understand that there are different parts to California Northern California especially where Josh and me are from is dairy country there are no surfer kid in dairy
Country us farmboys understand the meaning of hard work and long before we actually even go to school as far as the injuries one injury does not equal another a broken clavicle will completely heal and never be heard from again while concussions are a different matter
Then there is the minor matter of the fact that he played for the University of Wyoming where the temperature gets below 20 easy just like Buffalo
Oh, please, save the country boy bs for the next country song you croon. I grew up on a farm, have lived in predominantly rural areas for the last twenty years, and currently still live in a small city in a predominantly rural county, I have also lived in inner city Buffalo as well as suburbia at various times in my life, so I can say from experience that rural living doesn't automatically impart a better work ethic or moral superiority. Many of the problems that plague urban America afflict rural areas as well, including poverty, drug addiction, child/sex abuse, violent crime, etc, because people are people. In rural areas there's less because there's fewer people, not because the people are somehow "better". People are people no matter where they live.
As for Allen going to Wyoming for college instead of staying in Cali, that was because he wasn't offered a scholarship elsewhere. He got no offers from colleges and had to go to junior college. You may think that that's a positive but when you take off your Bills-colored glasses, you have to ask why no colleges were interested in this kid with all this supposedly great talent when so many other kids with lesser arms and less physical potential were fielding multiple collegiate offers ... including Josh Rosen.
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3 hours ago, mykidsdad said:
Tom Brady is 41. He cant live forever, and there is no heir apparent. Brady wont play forever. He wont be healthy forever. Our organization is finally being run by adults. I think the playing field is leveling. Finally.
Or maybe not. Time will tell. Outside of true believer Bills fans, there are lots of skeptics: Ten teams most likely to implode.
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13 hours ago, BeginnersMind said:
Got it. You're a troll. Been nice chatting with you. Sorry I didn't notice before.
Right-o. Bull Buchanan is a troll because he isn't bowing down to worship the fantasies that you and other gullible Bills fans spin about Allen, McDermott, Beane, etc based on nothing but wishful thinking.
Carry on proving your ignorance.
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11 hours ago, mead107 said:
Lot of you did not like our pick at QB.
Lot of you wanted Rosen.
Have you changed your mind?
Why would anybody change their minds after 3 or 4 practices in shorts?
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7 hours ago, H2o said:
Been saying this all along, that Allen would beat out these other two guys. It's not much for competition really. Hopefully he shows well once the pads go on and the defense starts really getting after him.
Exactly this. Contrary to what some fans hope, McCarron is what he's been: a backup QB, and Peterman isn't necessarily even that good but neither has had enough game experience to be fully evaluated, which I think why they are on the Bills. They haven't been totally proven duds but they aren't likely to challenge, much less embarrass, a rookie QB taken in the top ten. The Bills never had any intention of sitting whatever first round QB they drafted for more than a few regular season games, so they "cleared the deck" by trading Taylor, passing on all of the FA QBs with starting experience, and finally signing McCarron well after almost all the other FA QBs were gone.
McCarron and Peterman are not only "not much competition" for Allen, but I think that's how the Bills intended it to be well before they drafted him. Whether that works out well for Josh Allen or the Bills in the long term remains to be seen.
4 hours ago, Paulus said:Allen will be GOAT.
The GOAT of what? Failed first round QBs?
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34 minutes ago, Sky Diver said:
We have one data point for the new regime, Tre White. That's looking like a pretty good pick.
Who is this "better prospect" you speak of?
^^^
26 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:Bringing up 20 years worth of failures in an argument against the new staff that has already NAILED their 2017 pick and then broke the drought with massive roster turnover is really REALLY foolish IMO.
And make sure not to lump how all the fans “feel” about this draft in with your thoughts. It may have that “feel” to you. But I’m absolutely fine with how things shook out, as are plenty of others with even heads on their shoulders. I see no reason not to give the new staff the benefit of the doubt until they’vd proven they don’t deserve it.
So far so good.
How is Tre White all that different from Antoine Winfield or Nate Clements or Stephon Gilmore? Actually, he was a replacement for Gilmore, the Pro Bowl DB the Bills let walk ... just like they let Winfield and Clements walk away. That's been the Bills personnel pattern over the last twenty years: drafting first round DBs (or RBs), using them for their rookie contracts, and then moving on.
How is Josh Alllen a superior pro QB prospect to JP Losman or EJ Manuel, other than he doesn't go by his initials? All three had as their biggest pluses their big arms. All three were considered "projects" who would need work to become pro ready. All three had questions about their mechanics, including their accuracy. None of them demonstrated that they had the intellectual skills sets they needed to make them good NFL QBs such as being able to read defenses.
I'll give the current Bills regime credit for being "different" from their predecessors when their actions/selections/results don't bear depressing resemblace to previous regimes.
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2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:
Personally it is because it didn't match what I was seeing. Now could I be wrong and they be right? Of course. But should I presume they are right because they are on an NFL scouting staff? Hell no, the NFL gets it wrong often enough for me to say that dissenting voices are not always the ones to be ignored.
I see the ceiling. And I guess NFL teams value that more than I do - I have said that repeatedly. I also see the floor. If Josh Allen in the NFL reaches his ceiling he can be special. If he is the same Quarterback he was in college he will be a bust. Now most likely he falls somewhere in between. Speculating where on that scale is hard. Personally I always tend to lean towards what they have shown rather than the projection.
I just hat the attitude that "they are on an NFL staff they must know best". Why must they? This isn't an exact science and views that come from outside an NFL building are perfectly valid ones.
With the Bills FO staff, they've made so many poor choices drafting first rounders over the last 20 years that most of their top picks can be questioned even by fans with minimal football knowledge ...
1999 - Antoine Winfield - 23
2000 - Erik Flowers - 26
2001 - Nate Clements - 21
2002 - Mike Williams - 4
2003 - Willis McGahee - 23
2004 - Lee Evans - 13; JP Losman - 22
2006 - Donte Whitner - 8
2007 - Marshawn Lynch - 12
2008 - Leodis McKelvin - 11
2009 - Aaron Maybin - 11; Eric Wood - 28
2010 - CJ Spiller - 9
2011 - Marcell Dareus - 3
2012 - Stephon Gilmore - 10
2013 - EJ Manuel - 16
2014 - Sammy Watkins - 4
2016 - Shaq Lawson - 19
2017 - TreDavious White - 27
No first round picks in 1998, 2005, 2015
While the Bills coaching staff and FO have swapped personnel over the years with some regularity, most of the scouting staff really didn't change all that much until Beane took over last year. Unfortunately, the 2018 draft has the same "feel" as previous drafts ... another gamble on the proverbial "high risk/high reward" prospect while leaving better prospects on the board.
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18 hours ago, buffalostu2 said:
Doesn't Wentz pass this same test?
What exactly does Wentz' college career have to do with Allen other than they both attended smaller college programs? That isn't even a fair comparison because NDSU has been a dominant power among the Div 1 (FSC) for several years while Wyoming has had a modestly successful team with a couple of bowl appearances but nothing special. More to the point, the careers of Wentz and Allen have absolutely no connection. The success or failure of one has absolutely no connection to the success or failure of the other.
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On 7/19/2018 at 7:07 PM, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:
There's going to be a lot of QB's to compare Allen to. Mahomes, Watson, and Rosen are all guys that we could've picked instead of him. Watson was having the best rookie season ever until his injury.
Something that gets glossed over a lot, but the Star Lotulelei contract is absolutely terrible.
I think a lot of people on here are willing to overlook questionable GM decisions because Beane ended the drought. I'm willing to be patient, but there's a lot he could've done differently. Time will tell
Well said.
Beane and McDermott haven't done all that much but they've apparently been given blank checks to do whatever they want because the Bills stumbled to 9 wins and benefited from a major faux pas by the Baltimore defense.
On 7/20/2018 at 5:41 PM, Kelly101 said:It sounds like many more here are praying for him to fail, so they can be right. meh
typical of today's culture.
Allen has the deck stacked against him coming to the Bills, a team that has no OL and no WR corps. Add to that his lack of top quality coaching and relatively modest success against pretty poor competition on the college level, and he doesn't look like the horse to bet the rent on. That's not "praying for him to fail", it's just not ignoring reality.
1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:Undermine some part of the unit? Joey Bosa had a field day against that line and stated at times they didn't even block him.
The Jags game was the supposed litmus test in your view? The O line passed the test against Jacksonville? News flash! Buffalo lost that game and only scored 3 points all game. The Jags defense sacked a very mobile running QB 2x, intercepted Bills QB's 2x and knocked Taylor out of the game. The Buffalo defense was the hero of that game holding the Jags to 10 pts.
Did they look as bad as they did against the Chargers, no! However, the Bills do get to play them again in Buffalo in week two of this year... with no Tyrod. Let's see how they do, shall we?
I'm not optimistic at all about this season and I hope it will open some eyes towards building a better line.
I look at this year's offensive lines players and liken what I see to the 2010 season's starting line. I wouldn't be surprised to see this year's team start 0-8 because that line won't be able to protect the pocket QB's in Peterman, McCarron. I also doubt the run game will work very well regardless of how often they attempt to run the ball. Naturally, the QB's and RB's will get the blame.
@Ravens, Chargers, @Vikings, @Packers, Titans, @Texans, @Colts, Patriots. Tough first eight games and I'm hoping I'm wrong.
Excellent post.
Too many Bills fans refuse to accept the fact that OL play is the key to having a successful offense. Unfortunately, they're going to learn a hard lesson this coming season because the Bills OL is simply not good enough, which means that the Bills offense is going to pile up three-and-out, turn overs, very few TDs, and QB injuries.
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4 hours ago, KRT88 said:
well if they start 0-8, we know one thing, Allen will definitely get plenty of time on the field.
we even get scores too, so I guess there's no need to watch.
why do people write this useless crap?
And if he wrote that the Bills would go 8-0 in the first half and finish 13-3, you'd be slurping it up like it was your grandma's spaghetti sauce, and it sure wouldn't be "useless".
The Bills don't have an NFL caliber OL or WR corps. They not only don't have a starting QB, they don't even have a QB who was significantly better than the other two in minicamp. When a veteran QB who's been around as long as McCarren can't easily out perform a green rookie and a second-year QB who demonstrated as little potential as Peterman demonstrated last season, it's time to start worrying that the emperor's new clothes may be an illusion.
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6 minutes ago, aristocrat said:
i tell you the kansas city offense in 2012 could be us. Charles rushing for just over 1500 yards but the pass game with cassel and quinn couldn't crack 2900 yards. they went 2-14. yikes. Their defense was ranked 20th. The qbs totalled 8 tds and 20 picks...good lord. Our qbs can't be that bad right? That has to be the worst qb totals for a single season right?
Word out of mini camp is that McCarren couldn't separate himself from Peterman or Allen, which is a scary scenario ... and a blueprint for a 2 or 3 win season.
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1 hour ago, PaattMaann said:
Considering Bodine has been a starter for four straight years in Cinci, I would list him (not saying he is a world beater, but has never NOT been a starter in the NFL). Zay Jones should not be discounted, he had a tough rookie season due to the space between his head...but I think he could crack "starter snaps" on some NFL teams for sure, not saying he would be a top two, but I think he can be competent. Kerley has been a slot starter for much of his career. Ivory has been a starter, at least shared carries throughout his career. We have no clue what we have in Allen at QB.
I am not saying we will be even close to the best offense in the NFL, but having half of your players as starter level across the NFL isn't NOTHING. We have question marks, so does more than half of the league.
And bottom line, really good coordinators can mask deficiencies and help pull out the best of players talent. Track record isn't awesome for Daboll in that regard, but hopefully he has learned a thing or two over the past five seasons and we will see a different, more seasoned coordinator. My two cents.
That Bodine started for Cinci doesn't mean that he'd start elsewhere, including, according to some here on TWD, the Bills. Zay Jones is a bust until he proves otherwise. Kerley and Ivory are long past their primes. No rookie QB is going to be good enough to start on most NFL teams because the learning curve is too steep, and Allen isn't considered pro ready -- his collegiate coaching simply wasn't good enough.
Quite frankly, the offense on this team is reminicent the Jauron era, both in the general lack of talent and in the HC's attitude towards offense. I would like to be proven wrong but I don't expect to be. Hopefully, Daboll is better than Dennison, but I'm not holding my breath on that, either.
1 hour ago, bobobonators said:Its sounds like every other offense we have run over the last 25yrs.
Sad but true. I watch old videos of the Bills offense in the 1990s, and it saddens me that so many younger fans have never, ever seen the Bills regularly play well on offense.
32 minutes ago, TigerJ said:Those who put Daboll down because of his past record as an OC should remember that Josh McDaniels was considered a hot candidate to be one of the new head coaches this offseason despite the fact that his previous stint as a head coach at Denver was a disaster, rife with questionable to downright stupid decisions. The rationale has been that he's had an opportunity to learn from his mistakes. Coaches sometimes do learn from their mistakes.
The thing is, McDaniels hasn't actually demonstrated that he HAS learned from his mistakes. He was a brilliant OC when he left for the Broncos and failed as a HC. He's still the OC for the Pats until Belichick hangs 'em up.
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1 hour ago, billsbackto81 said:
WHOA! Someone had urine flavored Cherrios this morning.
Are you telling me none of these ticked you off when they happened? I know for me Jason Peters and Doug Marrone really got me fuming. Also, to compare athletes to the average American is pretty laughable. Though I agree they should fall under and abide by the same laws we all do, they live in a world that is far from ours. Those tens of millions of Americans you mention, are they signed under contract when they quit after receiving millions of dollars in compensation? Most likely not.
I will agree with you as far as the "traitor" monikor being off base. Its more like being classless.
When I was a kid maybe, but then when I was fourteen I saw the world in simple black and white primarily because I was naive and ignorant. I'm not either now, and haven't been for a long time.
Bills Offense ‘17 vs ‘18
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
In theory, your conclusion is right on ... but except for Bodine and the rookie Teller, who have the Bills added who wasn't on the team last season? Ducasse, who simply hasn't been starter quality at any time in his 8 or 9 year career, appears to be the only guy who fit Dennison's zone scheme. The question is only partly whether Daboll is smarter than Dennison, but assuming that he is, is there any realistic hope that the 2018 OL can be even as good as the 2017 version given the drop in talent level since the Bills have essentially replaced three above average OLers with below average starters/backup players?