ChiGoose

It is clear that we cannot rely on presidential impeachments as an enforcement mechanism since they just devolve into partisan squabbling, and I do not believe there is a law on the books that directly addresses this issue of a president acting with unlawful intent to overturn an election. A legislative remedy for this would be a good idea to come from the committee when they get to that point. All of that being said, under current law, you could definitely build a case on 18 U.S.C. § 371 (Conspiracy to defraud the United States) against Eastman, Giuliani, and Trump from the evidence we've seen. I do not know if that will happen, or if it would lead to a conviction if there was an indictment, but yesterday's raid on Jeff Clark's home combined with what I've seen so far from today's testimony makes me think it's not off the table.

Yeah, I think this is where the analogy breaks down a bit, but I wanted to illustrate that what we have seen is different from a spit-balling meeting. Executive privilege exists for a reason and the president and his advisors absolutely should be free to throw out crazy scenarios as part of a discussion without fear of repercussions. But what we are seeing here is that the president was told repeatedly that a course of action he wished to take was illegal, and yet he and a handful of people (who also knew it was illegal) still pursued those actions anyway. They took actions to further a scheme that they had been repeatedly informed was illegal. And I think that is different from just tossing ideas around.

Yes, this is exactly what Trump's people are doing. Thank you for calling it out.

I do not miss having a president who was suffering from severe Very Online Brain syndrome.

I am not referencing the people on the capitol grounds. I am referencing the plans to have dual electors and to have Mike Pence pick the winner of the election.

I think this is a somewhat helpful analogy. I would like you to consider the following addition: They bounce ideas around and the attorney tells them one of the ideas is illegal. They keep pushing on it and the lawyer continues to respond that it is illegal and they have no basis for it. Afterwards, members of the board take actions pursuant to that idea they had been told was illegal. What happens then?

It is a crime for more than one person to plan to commit a crime and then for at least one of them to take an act towards that purpose. A plan to overturn the election where one member of the group actively pressures people to take illegal actions meets a prima facie case under 18 U.S.C. § 371. Additionally, the recorded phone call to Raffensperger meets the elements of GA Code § 21-2-604 (2016).

I would certainly hope that the President of the United States committing a crime on a recorded phone call isn't "business as usual." Otherwise, Nixon really got screwed.

It's not just the violence on January 6th, it's everything that led up to it as well. We now have Trump on tape committing a crime. We also have sworn testimony about people within Trump's orbit taking actions they knew were illegal. I would say that matters.

I've been busy, so I didn't get a chance to finish watching this until this morning. Hopefully won't take as long for today's hearing. RECAP Rusty Bowers (GOP Speaker of the Arizona House): Wanted Donald Trump to win a second term of office, but Joe Biden won the election in Arizona Despite Trump’s assertions otherwise, Bowers never told Trump that he won the election nor that the election was rigged. Rudy called Bowers saying that he had proof of fraud, including illegal immigrants and dead people voting. Bowers asked for the evidence but Rudy never provided it. Rudy wanted Bowers to hold an official committee meeting to remove the electors and replace them with Trump electors. Bowers told them that they were asking him to violate his oath. Bowers asked Rudy and Jenna Ellis for the names of people who voted illegally, but they never provided any evidence. Giuliani: “We have lots of theories but we don’t have any evidence” Nobody every provided Bowers with evidence of fraud to question the outcome in Arizona John Eastman told Bowers to decertify the electors but Bowers replied that this would violate both his oath to the constitution and to the state of Arizona Bowers has received 20,000 emails and 10,000 voicemails and texts. On Saturdays, groups will come by his home with video panel trucks and blaring loudspeakers proclaiming him to be a pedophile, pervert, and corrupt. This was when his daughter was gravely ill and living with him. One man had a shirt with three bars on it, carried a pistol and threatened his neighbor. Brad Raffensberger (Secretary of State of Georgia): Wanted Donald Trump to win the 2020 election, but Joe Biden won. Ballots were counted three times: scanned, hand recount, and scanned again. All results were consistent. 28,000 Georgians skipped the presidential election and voted down ballot. The GOP congressmen got 33,000 more votes than Trump. Trump claimed that 5,000 dead people voted and filed lawsuits that 10,315 did, but the actual number was four. Trump claimed that there were 66,000 underaged voters, but the actual number was zero (17-year-olds can register so long as they will be 18 by election day). Trump claimed 2,424 non-registered people voted: actually zero Trump claimed 2,056 felons voted but it was really fewer than 75 Raffensberger offered to send Trump a link to the entire election counting video that would disprove his claims but Trump responded that he didn’t need it since he had a “better” link. Trump (audio from phone call): The real truth is that I won by 400,000 votes at least. So what are we going to do here folks?” Trump (audio from phone call): “I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state” Raffensberger was doxed and got threats from all over the country. His wife got threats that were sexual in nature. His daughter-in-law’s home was broken into. Raffensberger followed the law and the constitution. At the end of the day, Trump came up short. Gabriel Sterling (COO in Georgia Secretary State of Georgia: in charge of voting systems and COVID voting): Received a call from a contact at Dominion who was audibly shaken. They were receiving threats. On the claim of suitcases full of ballots: Investigated it and found it was normal ballot processing If you watch the entire video, the election workers were under the impression that they got to go home around 10pm so they were packing up and putting ballots to be counted into tamper proof containers. The election monitors were still there. The Secretary of State’s office called and told them to stay, and you can see the director slumping at his desk, not wanting to tell people they can’t go home. He tells them, and they take their coats off and resume counting. On claims of double counting: Standard procedure for a miss-scan is to delete the count and rerun Any issues would be discovered during the manual tally Hand tallies can have a discrepancy of 1-2% but because of how Georgia runs elections, the hand tally was within 0.105% of the total votes cast and 0.0099% of the margin Kenneth Chesebro (Trump Laywer) memo: Outlined a plan of competing slates of electors in the battleground states won by Biden. Then Pence can pick the Trump electors from those states. Cassidy Hutchinson (Aide to Mark Meadows): Giuliani, Meadows, and some members of Congress were involved in the dual electors scheme White House counsel told them that the plan for alternate electors was not legally sound Ronna Romney McDaniel (RNC Chair): Trump and Eastman called and told them it was important for the RNC to help with the dual electors. Robert Sinners (Trump Campaign Staffer): We were useful idiots and rubes at that point [for working to get the dual electors] After hearing testimony from others on the campaign he was angry that nobody cared about putting people like him in jeopardy Would not have participated had he known the three main campaign lawyers were not on board Laura Cox (Michigan Republican Party Chair): Was told the MI republican electors were planning to meet in the capitol and hide overnight so they could fulfill the law of casting their vote in the Michigan chambers Documents from campaign: Electors had to cast ballots in secret Electors asked for the campaign to pay legal fees Fake electors signed certificates that they were the correct electors Wisconsin officials texted that the Trump campaign wanted someone to fly their fake electors docs to DC Staffer for Sen. Ron Johnson texted Pence staffer that Johnson wanted to hand deliver fake electors. Pence staffer said do not give them Audio of call between Trump and Francis Watson (GA investigator): “I won by hundreds of thousands of votes. It wasn’t close” “Whatever you can do Frances it would be, it’s a great thing. It’s an important thing for the country, so important. You have no idea, it’s so important and I very much appreciate it.” “Do you think they’ll be working after Christmas, to keep it going fast? Because, you know, we have that date of the 6th, which is a very important date.” Shaye Moss (Fulton Country department of registration and elections): In a decade of service, she had never received threats before Loved her job because she was told by her grandmother how important it was to vote and that people in her family didn’t always have that chance. Giuliani called out her and her mother as part of a scheme to run ballots through multiple times. This was not true Giuliani said they were passing around USB drives like cocaine. It was a ginger mint. Checked Facebook and there were a lot of death threats, telling her that she’ll be in jail with her mother. “Be glad it’s 2020, not 1920” Her mother, Ruby Freeman, helped with the election. On Trump call to Raffensberger: “We had at least 18,000, that’s on tape, we had them counted very painstakingly, 18,000 voters having to do with Ruby Freeman, she’s a vote scammer, a professional vote scammer and hustler.” Moss: Felt it was her fault for wanting to be an election worker. Felt it was her fault to put her family in this situation where they were now getting threats Doesn't want anyone to know her name. She won’t go places with her mom in case she shouts her name. She won’t go out at all. Gained 60lbs. Second guess everything that she does. It has affected her life in a major way, all because of lies. People showed up at her grandmother’s house. Grandmother called her screaming at the top of her lungs that people were at her home. They knocked on her door, she opened it and they pushed their way into the house claiming they were making a citizen’s arrest, looking for Shaye and her mom. Shaye had to tell her not to go out or answer the door At night, people would continually send pizzas over and over and she was expected to pay Nobody from the video is still a permanent election worker or supervisor. Shaye left her position. Ruby Freeman’s recorded testimony: Used to wear a shirt with her name on it but now she won’t tell people her name. She’s worried about being identified or having to give her name in public. She’s lost her name and her sense of security Stayed away from her home for two months for her safety “There is nowhere I feel safe. Nowhere. Do you know how it feels to have the President of the United States target you? The President of the United States is supposed to represent every American, not to target on. But he targeted me, Lady Ruby, a small business owner, a mother, a proud American citizen who stands up to help Fulton County run an election in the middle of the pandemic.” TAKEAWAYS: This hearing mostly focused on the dual electors scheme and the threats made to the people involved in the elections. On the latter, I don't have much to say other than it's heartbreaking and that forcing people out of their jobs through threats and replacing them with the kinds of people making those threats is a danger to our country. Especially since those jobs are responsible for our elections. On the dual electors scheme, it was clearly illegal, they knew it was illegal, and they tried it anyway. Some of the electors signed affidavits that they were the true electors. Those people should be prosecuted. As to Trump himself, I've thought that Georgia has been his most pressing legal exposure and the evidence here definitely puts him in jeopardy. He is on the record saying he won the election by 400,000 votes but that he just wanted Raffensberger to add 11,800 to his tally. This is telling the Secretary of State to input a number he knows is false (because he thinks the real number is about 400,000 more) and meets the prima facie case for election fraud under Georgia law. That does not mean he will be indicted, or if he is, that he'll be found guilty, but this seems pretty clear to be a crime. Finally, a lot of the pushback I've seen here on the hearing is that it is partisan because it's only the people who believe the Democrats. Given the actual witnesses, the two sides really seem to be who will testify under oath and who will not (which should give you a hint as to who is more believable). But most of the people testifying are Republicans that wanted Trump to win, people who worked to get Trump elected, or people appointed to their positions by Trump. Here is the list of some of the witnesses and authors of documents so far: Jared Kushner Ivanka Trump Bill Barr Jeffrey Rosen (Acting Attorney General) Richard Donoghue (Acting Deputy Attorney General) BJ Pak (US Attorney for the Northern District of Georgia) Bill Stepien (Trump Campaign Manager) Jason Miller (Trump Campaign Senior Advisor) Matt Morgan (Trump Campaign General Counsel) Alex Cannon (Trump Campaign Lawyer) John Eastman (Trump Campaign Lawyer) Kenneth Chesebro (Trump Campaign Lawyer) Robert Sinners (Trump Campaign Staffer) Eric Herschmann (Trump White House Lawyer) Derek Lyons (Counselor to the President) Sarah Matthews (Trump White House Deputy Press Secretary) Mark Short (Pence's Chief of Staff) Greg Jacobs (Pence's General Counsel) Ben Williamson (Aide to Mark Meadows) Cassidy Hutchinson (Aide to Mark Meadows) Ronna Romney McDaniel (RNC Chair) Brad Raffensberger (GOP Georgia Secretary of State) Gabriel Sterling (GOP COO for Georgia Secretary of State) Shaye Moss (Georgia election worker) Ruby Freeman (Georgia election worker) Rusty Bowers (GOP Speaker of the Arizona House) Al Scmidt (GOP City Commissioner of Philadelphia) Laure Cox (Michigan GOP Chair) Ben Ginsburg (GOP Election Lawyer) Michael Luttig (Conservative judge) Chris Stirewalt (Fox News Politics Editor) Sean Hannity And here are just some of the people the committee has subpoenaed that we haven't heard from: House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy Rep. Mo Brooks Rep. Ronny Jackson Rep. Andy Biggs Rep. Barry Loudermilk Rep. Jim Jordan Rep. Scott Perry Jeffrey Clark (Acting Assistant AG) Kenneth Klukowski (Senior Counsel to Jeffrey Clark) Mark Meadows (WH Chief of Staff) Christopher Liddell (WH Deputy Chief of Staff) Stephen Miller (WH Senior Advisor) Michael Flynn (National Security Advisor) Peter Navarro (WH Trade Advisor) Daniel Scavino (WH Deputy Chief of Staff for Comms) Judd Deere (Deputy WH Press Secretary) Kayleigh McEnany (WH Press Secretary) John McEntee (WH Personnel Director) Brian Jack (WH Director of Political Affairs) Kash Patel (Chief of Staff to Def. Sec.) Nicholas Luna (Trump's Personal Assistant) Molly Michael (Special Assistant to the President) Max Miller (WH and campaign staffer) Keith Kellogg (Pence's National Security Advisor) Steve Bannon Jenna Ellis (Trump Campaign Attorney) Boris Epshteyn (Trump Campaign Strategic Advisor) Angela McCallum (Trump Campaign National Executive Assistant) Sidney Powell (Trump Campaign Lawyer) Michael Roman (Trump Campaign Director of Election Day Ops) Gary Michael Brown (Trump Campaign Deputy Director of Election Day Ops) Robert Peede Jr. (Met with Trump on Jan 4 to plan rally) Kimberly Guilfoyle If this was truly just a partisan witch hunt, any of these people could accept the invitation to testify and blow up the entire narrative of the Jan 6th committee. But most of them are fighting as hard as they can to avoid testifying under oath for some reason...

Unlike a Congressional committee, the DoJ has the ability to deprive us of life, liberty, and/or property. They have VERY different standards, and they should.

Oh, for sure, I was not claiming you made such a statement about Trump's innocence. Just wanted to provide clarity on why we may not have seen more serious indictments yet. A lack of charges at this stage obviously does not imply that Trump is guilty, but it also does not ensure that he isn't, given the length of these type of investigations. I do not think the DoJ would rely on a congressional committee on whether or not to investigate or charge someone. They may find that the testimony provides color to what they already have, but by no means are they waiting for the committee to tell them who to indict. They have even rejected some of the committee's requests for prosecution. The way that I look at it is that the DoJ has an investigation but it is generally under wraps because it is a law enforcement agency so even leaking that they are investigating someone is harmful to that person's reputation even if charges are not ultimately filed. The Jan 6th hearings can give us some insight into what the DoJ *might* be considering since they should have similar evidence (though they do not have as many teeth to get cooperation that the DoJ does).

Something to keep in mind is that DoJ investigations are generally fairly slow. Remember that Durham was appointed by Barr to investigate the origins of the Russia probe in May 2019 but didn't indict Sussman until September 2021, more than two years later. Given the sheer size of the January 6th inquiry and the difficulties with potential prosecutions of members of the Executive Branch, a lack of indictments at this time does not necessarily imply that there were no crimes by higher ups, even as high as Trump. We're mainly in "wait and see" mode to see where it leads. That's why I find the hearings helpful because, unlike before, we are getting actual sworn testimony now. It's not just people talking to the media where they can lie as much as they want.

I'm not sure it matters too much if Trump's endorsed candidates don't win if the candidates that do win are still incredibly Trumpy and believe the Big Lie.

Fair enough, it's not for everyone. Personally, I love the wonkiness.

They've honestly been pretty good about keeping the chatter from the committee members to a minimum. The first 10-15 minutes are meh. but the rest is very tightly focused on the witnesses. Each session starts with statements from Thompson, Cheney, and whoever is leading the questioning that day. After that, it's almost entirely testimony from the witnesses, video from recorded testimony from other witnesses, with just a bit of context added by staffers. Though in yesterday's session, Schiff was leading the questioning so I just zoned out during the opening statements and played Civ IV until the questioning actually started.

They are afforded extra leeway under the speech and debate clause, but that's really only applicable in the course of legislative debate. I haven't finished watching yesterday's hearing (didn't get a chance to start until 9pm), but what I saw is testimony that directly ties Trump to the fake electors scheme. That potentially could constitute fraud or other crimes. But I agree that the political structure (not the law) is what protects Trump here. "Conald" is a bit juvenile.

I don't think Biden is doing a great job, but the argument that Biden has hampered US production of oil does not match the fact that our current domestic output is near historic highs. Like I've said, there are multiple reasons why the price has skyrocketed and none of them are easily solved in the short term. There isn't much the president can do to make a big impact on prices in the short term.

Probably just to cover the summer, where there is more driving, and therefore more demand on gas.

Again?

I'm sure it would have marginal impact on prices for something like that, but I'm not going to take the word of an oil industry exec arguing that the government should help his company as gospel. Just a quick glance ate oil prices versus gas prices shows that in July, 2018 the price of oil was about $165 per barrel and gas was $4.11. In May 2022, the price of oil was $115 and the price of gas was $4.55. So even with oil being $50 cheaper per barrel, gas is $0.44 more expensive than it was during that peak. So even if Biden gave a full throated endorsement of more drilling and domestic production, it may only move the needle a little in the short term. Sources: (Oil prices) (Gas prices)

No, it's not all Putin and COVID, though those do impact it. It's also not likely to be domestic oil production: (Source) There's no silver bullet for gas prices as the current prices are driven by multiple factors. It's just hard to argue that it's primarily driven by domestic production since that's still near historic highs. This is why I do not believe there is a short-term solution. The US President cannot sign an order that fixes supply chain issues, eliminates price gouging, immediately increases production, and ends the war in Ukraine. A gas tax holiday is like spitting on a fire. That's also why I think we should be focused on more medium to long term solutions. If we cannot fix this problem immediately, let's work to make sure it doesn't happen again.

The timeline to bring new oil production online would not impact current prices. Additionally, there are thousands of permits already that are not being used. The government can issue as many permits as it wants, but if the oil companies don't drill, it won't do anything.

Which executive orders should he revoke?

From what I've seen, the Great Lakes basin will be least affected while the west will have more frequent wildfires and the south will have reduced crop yields. There are some informative maps here: https://projects.propublica.org/climate-migration/