HoofHearted

Well shoot when you’re asked about all the “shotgun draws” you ran against the Giants and you didn’t run draw a single time I’d be unsure about what’s going on too 🤣🤣🤣 Eric Turner also only included plays where Diggs was the number one read in the progression (even included one where he wasn’t but said he was) to push his narrative. There were plenty of concepts that schemed other players open. We hit some of them (Gabe specifically) and failed to execute others. Dude says some off the wall things in those videos sometimes that people here take as gospel.

Depends what you're doing with it. If it's just a jet motion to get eyes going one way and then you run the opposite, sure, though it's still forcing defenses to communicate on the fly and, more often than not, move at the snap of the ball. I don't understand why offenses don't do this with every run concept tbh - it's so simple and can give you such an advantage. Whats more intriguing to me is the change of strength motions because now you're getting teams misaligned unless they adjust with the motion, which again gets guys moving at the snap. And then what Miami is doing with motions putting force players in conflict is really good stuff. We've run draw maybe 3 times this year. Last week our backfield action looked just as you described when we ran Dart out of gun and it hit last week too.

Elam actually played a really good game. Got beat on the slot fade in Cover 1. Didn't look good playing press man at all. Lost at the LoS in true press every single time except for once iirc because of dead feet, lunging, and/or either jamming with two hands or trying to use the wrong hand. Played almost exclusively man or MOD. Looked most comfortable press bailing. I think he had a handful (6-7) snaps of Cover 2 and maybe 3 or 4 snaps of Quarters and looked really good in both. He was fantastic in run support. @GreggTX

The problem with most of those is that they're one off deals. You can use them for a game, but then can't come back to them for a while because everyone will prepare for them. I'd much rather see us lean more into motioning for misdirection. We do some of it already, but nowhere near at the clip that the Dolphins or 49ers are.

Correct.

PAP - play action pass MOD - man outside and deep (this is a technique played by corners) MOF - middle of the field (can refer to a player or a coverage - MOF Closed Coverages are 1 and 3 - MOF Open Coverages would be your two shell 2, 4, or 6)

What would you qualify as trickery or complex schemes? I’m genuinely asking, not trying to be sarcastic. Dart from gun was the most productive run scheme we had vs the Giants of the schemes that were run more than twice.

It was more so Josh holding the ball too long at times this week.

It's what the Patriots call it. There's a thousand different terms for route concepts. That's why it's so hard for casual fans to learn the game. There's no common language.

I didn't see any of this in the first half of the game.

Do you understand the reasoning behind the design of the concept?

Why the eyeroll @Chandler#81?

Pass 1 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read. Pass 2 - Went 12 personnel. Giants played 3 to it - Corners playing MOD - Allen picked his matchup and threw to Diggs. Pass 3 - Ran Deep Crossers vs Man Coverage - they tried to Double Stef - throw to Gabe - it was open but he tripped. Diggs and Knox also open. Pass 4 - Ran a Dragon concept vs Cover 2 - hit Diggs on the Glance - he was the first read. Had Cook open to the flat and probably would have had Morris open on the Corner route to the field as the corner drove the stop underneath. Pass 5 - Went empty and hit Gabe on a stop to the boundary flat. Hitch Seam Concept vs. Cover 3. Pass 6 - PAP designed for Sherfield on a deep over - cut his route too shallow and should have drifted sooner. He was wide open. Diggs also got open on the comeback to the field. Curious if Josh got confused here - Defense should 3 pre-snap and rolled 2. Even with the shallower path by Sherfield Josh can and has made that throw before. Additionally if he just stops and throws it back across the formation he has Cook wide open in the flat with a lead blocker in Edwards backside with a Corner as the only defender close to it and he was 15 yards away. Pass 7 -PAP Snag 7 concept - reading the overhang defender - he sank with Diggs so Josh threw the arrow to Gabe - Gabe fumbled. Had Knox as an outlet backside. Pass 8 - PAP Deep Cross concept vs. Cover 3 which turns into man for the corners because of the offensive formation. Hit Diggs - Harty got hemmed up with the corner otherwise he could have blown the top off that thing because MoF Safety played Cheat to Diggs. Also had Murray as an outlet on the play. Pass 9 - PAP. This is the mesh concept with the vertical by Gabe that everyone is talking about. Allen sees single high coverage pre-snap. Safety did a good job hanging on the hash as long as possible to muddy Allens read - wanted to hit Gabe which is why he waited so long because he wanted the Safety to declare. Once Safety declared and he saw Cover 2 he immediately looked for Diggs and let it rip even though he had a wide open Shakir on the opposite side. Pass 10 - HBO Concept vs Quarters - took the quick throw to Diggs before anything else really had an opportunity to develop. Would have had Knox to the middle of the field and Gabe on a deep curl if he wanted it. Pass 11 - Ran the same Snag 7 concept to the field against Cover 6. Looked Diggs on a slant backside first - wasn't there and had to scramble to his left. Had Knox open to the flat on a whip route with the defense dropping to the sticks on third and long. If he had looked trips side first as he should have he'd probably have hit Gabe on the Curl for a first down. Pass 12 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read and it should have been handed off. There was no play there with the defense playing 1. Pass 13 - Mesh vs Cover 3 - Cover 1 made a comment about Allen potentially thinking it was 1, but every defender is playing with zone eyes so I'd highly doubt it. Had Cook and should have thrown to Cook. Instead got pressured and threw it in the dirt to Diggs. With a clean pocket he also had Gabe on the backside deep out vs the sinking corner. Pass 14 - Basically ran a one man concept here on 3rd and forever. Defense played Cover 3 - Sherfield ran the collector to pull the MoF Safety and Diggs ran an out and up vs a Trap 3 look. They got exactly the look they wanted - Diggs beat his guy but pressure forced Josh out of the pocket and the play wasn't really designed to go anywhere else. He forced a throw off-balance and underthrew it. Pass 15 - PAP. Another two man route concept here. Diggs on the Glance and Sherfield on the Deep Out to the field vs. Cover 3. Curious about the condensed split by Diggs here, but the backers didn't bite and there was no window. Allen should have thrown the Out to the field. Pass 16 - Flood concept vs. Cover 1 Rat. Looked like Josh got confused by the double on Diggs initially - checked the MoF Safety to ensure it was 1, but then pocket broke down. Diggs worked scramble drill and got himself open. Allen overthrew it. Pass 17 - Went Empty and ran two verts backside to Cover 3 which was disguised as 0. Josh was definitely thrown off by the disguise. By the time he recognized 1 high the pocket had broken down and he threw it away to the field. Looked like Murray also ran the wrong route on the play otherwise Shakir would have been open to the flat. Pass 18 - Ran Curl Arrow to the field vs Quarters and Hitch Seam to the boundary vs. 2. Looked Diggs first - had Harty on the Curl behind it wide open, but never saw it. Pocket broke down and he ended up throwing it away on scramble drill. Pass 19 - PAP - Mirrored Deep Curls vs Cover 3 - open on both sides - threw to Diggs. Pass 20 - Had a Post/Dig concept working the middle of the field vs Cover 6 - threw to Knox and it got picked. The frustrating part is if he holds a second later the Safety is driving the Dig and Knox would have had a walk-in touchdown on the Post. Murray also open as the outlet. That's every pass from the first half of the game. Guys were definitely getting open. There's definitely a lot being schemed for Diggs, but there's also a fair amount being schemed for other guys as well. Allen finds Diggs immediately whenever anything breaks down which is understandable. Also rushed some stuff which is understandable given the consistent pressure he saw. As a side note Dorsey's play calling was impressive. Every route concept outside of the Flood vs Cover 1 was had an answer to take advantage of the coverage they saw from the defense.

1st Run: Long Trap A lot going on during this play. Initial formation is Wing Twins which they shifted to Slot Trips which they then motioned to Ace. All of this is just eye candy and to get our second level defenders moving on the snap. They running Trap so it's double downs front side and seal hinge the backside - Guard pulls to kick our defensive end. Rousseau steps over himself on initial footwork which doesn't allow him to squeeze the down as he should and widens the gap. Bernard bumps back to a 10 on the motion - plays with great eyes - recognizes the guard pull and gets his eyes to the down/down. His responsibility is to fit outside of the down/down which he works to though he engages at 4 yards instead of being able to press it at the LoS. Williams plays with good eyes - sees the guard pull, but hesitates scraping over the top when he sees the open playside A that Poyer is now responsible for. If Williams scrapes as he should it's a gain of maybe 3 or 4 even with the lack of a squeeze from Rousseau. Being in Nickel had no impact on this play. 2nd Run: GH Counter Again the Giants used shifts and motions to try to affect our front. This time we had a stunt on so the effect was minimal. Same kind of concept bringing the jet motion as eye candy to pull our second level defenders eyes off their keys. This time Rousseau does a better job of squeezing the down/down and boxing the pulling guard and compressing the gap. We were bringing Poyer on a stunt so he fits off the down/down and leverages the tight end working to wrap. Williams looks unsure whether he's suppose to fit outside or inside the wrapping Tight End, but end up putting himself in the right position late, but isn't in a position where he could breakdown and make the tackle. If he makes the tackle it's a 1 yard gain. Being in Nickel had no impact on this play. There's your two big plays. Again Nickel had zero impact on either of these. Taron was pulled out of the box in both situations. Bad technique from Rousseau on the first one and just indecision from a young player were the cause for the big gains.

There’s no doubt about that! Take that matchup every day.

It matters to me not if you wish to continue to be ignorant and uninformed...

I have. You refuse to listen. I've also said it's not "off-script". When he is seeing man coverage he's just picking the match-up he likes best. This has been Diggs the vast majority of times this year. It's no different than taking "the gift" in 3x1 sets. If the defense is playing off to the single side you can ignore the concept progression and throw the 5 yard stop since they're just giving it to you.

I know he overran his drop a couple times. I'd have to see the A22 to give a true opinion though. A lot of his faults right now are just eye discipline which will come with reps. I'm encouraged by what I've seen so far. You can't teach his speed and willingness to pull the trigger.

Guess you just have to trust that a guy who's been doing this professionally for a long time knows what he's talking about 🤷‍♂️ I'm not sure what you're talking about.

1) I thought you were saying why isn't the vertical passing game in our offense 2) The one on Elam was Cover 1 and the one on Benford was 2 Man

Yeah, coverage plays a huge role in progressions, but again they are all rule based. You're acting like the Bills are running some obscure offense that's never been done before. All of these concepts have been around for forever. They all have set rules and progressions. As a casual fan you could probably find them if you wanted to, but like I said - watch the film. It is? We rarely get man coverage to take advantage of it.

Blasphemy! How are we supposed to get Dorsey fired if we acknowledge players mess up?!?!? I mean it's cool if you don't want to believe me, but all concepts have built in reads/progressions. Those don't change based on what team is running them. Football is a game of rules and those rules are tied to the concept.

Go watch the A22 from last week. We run the same exact play all within the same drive and vs man he stares down diggs and throws the vertical when he got zone he went through his progressions. This isn't anything abnormal. Quarterbacks in the league do this all the time. To be clear I'm not saying this behavior isn't condoned, but it is going against the progression of the concepts.

Diggs is always the first read if Allen sees man coverage. That's Allen doing his own thing.

If you're trailing in coverage you're taught not to turn around and play a ball. How anyone can have an opinion of Elams play as of right now is baffling to me. Without being able to see the A22 and just relying on the broadcast view you all are just making assumptions without any evidence to back them up.