Shaw66

Yeah but after taxes and paying his agent that's probably only $100 million. 😄

Well, I agree that Forest might win a starting job, but his signing certainly did not make him the presumptive starter over anyone on the roster. The guy has played for 4 years and never was more than a part-time starter. So, I think it is hard to say that Beane filled a hole when he signed Forest. It's more like Beane brought in someone who, like other someones he has on the roster, might compete for a starting job. It's true that Poyer had an equally unimpressive record prior to coming to Buffalo, but there are dozens and dozens of players with unimpressive records. The fact that Forests record looks like Poyer's simply highlights how Beane caught lightning in a bottle with Poyer.

I am not saying that I agree or disagree about whether the Bills need more safety help. I truly don't know. However, Beane and McDermott have a reason for everything. They might choose the wrong guy here or there, but they know what they need. The fact that the Bills have done more or less nothing at safety can mean only one thing: they have what they need at safety. Your thought is the same thing many people, including me, were saying a couple years ago when Bernard, coming off a rookie season when he played little and didn't really impress, had no competition for the job. Put another way, if the Bills think they need someone, they go and get competition. Like DT this year, and corner. And wideout. If they aren't bringing in competition, it means they like what they have.

I'm a hard pass. Clowney seems to me to be on a downward trajectory. He's past his real or imagined peak. Having him on your team is betting that you'll get a year out of him before the decline makes him not good enough. I also think his strength is his creativity, and McDermott's style is to encourage playing within the system and discourage independent decision making. I think betting on Bosa is a little different. Bosa has shown that he can be consistently valuable, game after game. The question with him is whether injuries have just made him less effective. The Bosa bet is more similar to the Miller bet. Miller had plateaued at a good place - he wasn't at his peak but he wasn't declining. And that's what the Bills got, until he got injured. They're hoping they get that from Bosa, too.

auto correct!

Thanks. Great explanation. I appreciate it.

If that's true, he was the second beat wide out on the Jags. So why is he a free agent today?

I don't think he fits the style the Bills are playing. The Bills want guys who can play multiple positions are quick and shifty. I don't think he's the guy.

That may be true, and if you asked the coaches today, they might tell you exactly that today. However, I think the coaches would tell you also that it's a competition, a daily competition, and that Moore has the talent to take playing time from any one of them, depending on circumstances in October. In other words, you're giving me the depth chart today. I think the Bills' philosophy, both with the receiver room and the defensive line rooms, is that the depth chart today doesn't necessarily control the number of snaps players will get when the season rolls around. Snap counts are determined week to week.

Well, maybe, but I think the Bills' approach is much more open-ended than that. I really think that from week to week and month to month they want to be looking at what works and what teams are doing against them and then running route schemes and players that they think will work best. To do that, they're trying to match the talents of their players with the schemes. Moore is a talented guy, and in the right circumstances, he could be a 1000-yard guy in a given season, even with Shakir and Kincaid on the field. I've really come around to thinking that each position group is operated with one of two philosophies: One philosophy is the fixed-starter philosophy - name the starters and absent injuries, those starters player every down. In that philosophy, the Bills value team play and coordination. The defensive backfield and the offensive line operate on that philosophy. The Bills want the same guys on the field every down (except for sub-packages in the defensive backfield). The other philosophy values mix-and-match opportunities and versatility. The defensive line, the receivers, and the running backs operate on that philosophy. From game to game and play to play, with those groups the Bills put the players on the field who often them the opportunity to do what they want to do in that situation. They want to be as multiple as possible, because they get an advantage by the forcing the opponent to adjust to what the Bills happen to bringing. If what the Bills have done to the defensive line works, for example, the Bills will be driving offenses nuts, because the Bills will be showing a big variety of players, and looks and styles, on the defensive line. If it works, a lot of guys will be able to get to the QB, a lot of guys will have the mobility the Bills want to manage run gaps. Bringing it back to Moore, I think the Bills are thinking that a guy with experience in the league and sub 3.4 speed could, in the right circumstances, pile up a lot of yards. For example, suppose that the Bills' running game takes another step forward this season and forces defenses to drop the extra man into the box. In that case, maybe Moore starts getting open down field more regularly. It all will depend on whose number Joe Brady calls.

I have a lot of them. Maybe I should write a book.

I was hoping someone would start a discussion about these position groups. I don't know who will win the corner roster spots, but I'm confident it'll be a good group. Safety is where I, and I think most others, are concerned. There isn't one who gives me a lot of confidence to be a solid, above-average start. I can't get enthused about Rapp, Bishop didn't show last season that he was ready (although he may and very well could make the jump he needs this season), Hamlin doesn't do it for me. It seems to me like a room full of backups and projects. One or two need to emerge.

I like Ingram last season. I though he played well and showed potential. If he can't make it, it means the Bills are pretty good. Same for Lewis, who has been a solid reserve. Right. Fifth round pick has to be pretty disappointing to get cut.

Well, I generally agree with you. He's not likely to emerge as a top-10 receiver. Those guys have special talent, and it shows up wherever they may be playing. However, the beauty of McDermott's system, and the wideout philosophy in general, is that system doesn't require him to be a top-10 receiver. It doesn't require ANYONE to be a top-10 receiver. What the system hopes it can get out of each receiver is 600-1000 yards, Instead of requiring a 1500-yard man, this system just requires that Beane find several 800-yard men. That's a much easier task. The receiver room looks better with Moore and Palmer than without them, for sure. Both have shown that they can get that kind of yardage. Whether they make the room better than with healthy Cooper and Hollins is a real question for some, but I think the Moore and Palmer offer more upside. If Samuel is the weakest player in the room, I think it's a strong group.

Congrats to him. I've always thought he was one of the best of his era.

I don't care about any of the other teams. Therefore, by default, the Bills had the best off-season.

This is interesting. It's not so much a question of whether Palmer and Moore fit Brady's offense. I wouldn't call it "expanding" the play book, more like evolving it. What's happened is they've substituted guys who are, I think, better physically than the guys who left. It's up to Brady to figure out how his offense must change to create the kind of opportunities that fit the skills of his new players. And yes, it's true every season, for every coordinator, because as the season progresses, defenses figure out how to stop almost everyone. These free agent signings are about getting Brady the best athletes for him to work with.

If they don't block they won't play.

I've discovered that that is how I feel.

Can't argue with that. They drafted a third string tight end. Maybe you're onto Beane's secret plan.

Yes, Deek, but this is the argument that has raged around here for months, even a couple of years. The Bills need a playmaker, a stud I call him. Well, I'm generally in that camp, but I no longer make that argument. Why not? Because by their actions McDermott and Beane have made it absolutely indisputable that they do not agree with a philosophy that demands that they go get a stud. They just don't. Would they like to have another star who is also a team player, a Josh minor to Josh's Josh major? Of course they would. But they will not spend really big draft capital to get one, and they will not spend really big cap money to get one, either. Their only hope of getting a second playmaker is to grow one. Draft a guy with big upside, and that's what they've done, year after year. Kincaid, Hairston, Rousseau all are big upside guys. Oliver was too. Bernard was a big upside guy. Cook was. If they don't turn into the star we all want, well, okay, but they still can play really solid football while the search goes on. And they have three or four more of those guys now, in Hairston, Sanders, Jackson, and Walker - commentators three years from now could be saying that any one of them was the steal of the 2025 draft. They've been very clear about their system: they plug holes in free agency and they build through the draft. Moore came as a free agent, and his role very definitely is to plug a hole, to make the receiver room better. His role is not be a stud, because free agency is not where McBeane look for studs. So, as much as I would love for a real stud show up at some position, some guy who has Hall of Fame potential, a Chris Jones or a Watt, or a top five-receiver, or Saquon Barkley, McBeane are not going to acquire that guy by overspending. I'm not going to criticize McBeane for having a perfectly logical and reasonable team-building approach just because I wish Chris Jones was on the Bills' roster. I'm not going criticize them because there is no way that if I were the owner of the Bills I would fire one or both of them because they haven't chased after a stud. This team has had a spectacular record since taking over, they have a system, and the system is responsible for where this team is. Some people will say where they are is with an empty trophy case, but the reality is that the Bills are one of the five best-run franchises in the league, and they have the wins to show it. I'm not firing them because there is a thing here or there that I disagree with. If I'm not going to fire them, then I'm going to accept the conscious decisions they make to run the team. So, yeah, Moore isn't Justin Jefferson. Okay, everyone gets that. He's exactly what the Bills want: relatively cheap talent who will compete for playing time, and by virtue of his competing, the Bills will get better. That's how the Bills build and improve, and that's why I'm happy the Bills signed him.

I agree with this assessment. However, it's important to note that if the test as to whether a free agent or draftee would have been the difference last season or this season, then there are only 20 or 30 players alive for whom that is true, and all of them were either signed or drafted before the Bills had a chance to get them. There was no stud receiver available to the Bills. This is all about team building, trying to get better, player by player and position by position. That's all. It's a good team building move.

Cooper Kupp did fine with his first QB, but he exploded when Stafford arrived. He went from 974 yards to 1947. Since then he's been slowed by injuries. So, there is one. But I agree. I'm not expecting Moore to double his previous season's output. Still, he's moving on from two disorganized teams without quarterbacks to a team whose offense is designed to get every guy open sooner or later, with a good quarterback, he's gotta think he's turned some kind of corner.

I came here to say one thing, but now I have two: First, thanks to @GASabresIUFan for doing this. It's fabulous. And thanks to the contributors here. I've just started looking through the thread, and there's really a lot of good discussion about particular positions and players. Great stuff!!! Second, I didn't want to start a new thread to say this, and this seemed like a good place to say it: I'm quietly excited about this team. All over the roster. Safety troubles me some, and the linebacking feels a bit thin, but both the defensive line and corner back depth looks to be exceptional. I think we'll see some high level play out of the defense this season. Offense has talent and depth on the offensive line (someone suggests Lundt will get cut, but he apparently is a talented and exceptionally motivated guy). Running back room is unchanged, and if it produces as well as last season, that's great. Receiving corps got the job done last season, and it seems to be upgraded nicely, with Palmer replacing the shoeless wonder and now Moore added to the mix. You know your team is good when an item worth discussing here is why an unknown quarterback will make the practice squad because his wife is a good social organizing force among the players' wives! As I said, I'm quietly excited.

Meaning no disrespect, I think you're misperceiving, more or less completely, what signing Moore is about. The Bills signed him to be part of their receiver-by-committee approach. They don't expect him to be a 1000-yard receiver - if that happens, great, but that's not what they signed him for. They signed him to play maybe 30-40% of the wide receiver snaps, get maybe 500-600 yards - just like the receivers did last year. The way we all used to think about receivers is that the team had three wideouts - like, for example, Diggs and Davis and a slot guy, and the other guys were backups who played only when the Bills went four-wide or when someone got injured. That isn't how they play any longer. Now, they want to have, essentially, five starting wide-outs, all of whom play, and all of whom can play pretty much any of the wideout positions. The Bills put them on the field in all kinds of different combinations and different formations. It all changes from play to play. They challenge the defense to get the right personnel on the field, play after play, to match the Bills personnel, and even then the defense doesn't know what positions those receivers will be playing. It's almost impossible to adjust the defensive personnel to be ready for everything and to get the defensive matchups they want everywhere. So, there's a lot of reason to be excited about Moore, because he certainly could be exactly what the Bills expect - an upgrade to the total talent on the wider receiver committee. I'm excited, because every player who makes the committee better makes the Bills better. If he turns out to be Valdez-Scantling and gets cut, okay, but that's always a risk. He's a good candidate to improve the committee. How do I know that? He was a second-round pick, which means he has the athletic skill set to be a threat on the field. So, I'm excited. They aren't expecting the equivalent of Jerry Hughes. I'm not sure why you didn't think the Bills would get production from him - he was a first-round draft pick who didn't fit the Bears' scheme. I was hoping he'd be a solid player for the Bills when they got him. But Hughes is irrelevant in the discussion of Moore, because the Bills don't particularly need Moore to be anything like the equivalent of what Hughes became.