DC Tom Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 Arabs across the region will be watching the funeral, they won't be watching a diplomatic meeting next tuesday. Arafat is what passed for a moderate among his people. Send a flunky to the funeral will send the message that we simply don't care about Palestinians, never have and never will. We will confirm the worst lies told about us by the worst terrorists among them. Sending Powell won't alienate Israel but may buy us some credibility where we currently have less than none. 113221[/snapback] The flip side of that being: Arafat was an avowed terrorist, and sending Powell potentially sends the message to other terrorist groups that it's possible to become a "good" or at least "acceptable" terrorist to the US government if you work at it long enough. I don't think that's the message we want to be sending either. And of course, there's the flip-side to that flip-side: everyone else is likely to send very senior officials if not actual heads-of-state, and you don't want to send someone that's going to appear grossly inequal to them, as you run the risk of other nations believing we're putting them on a grossly inferior level vis-a-vis us. Really, it's a very fine line. As a practical matter, I don't think we should send someone as senior as Powell for a great variety of reasons...yet, I don't think we can send some junior flunky, either. My gut feeling is it'll end up being Powell who goes...but I'd be far more comfortable with Armitage, myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark VI Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 !@#$ that. Claymores. I want to make sure. 113205[/snapback] Eat pork sausage off the end of it, before plunging it deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 Arabs across the region will be watching the funeral, they won't be watching a diplomatic meeting next tuesday. Arafat is what passed for a moderate among his people. Send a flunky to the funeral will send the message that we simply don't care about Palestinians, never have and never will. We will confirm the worst lies told about us by the worst terrorists among them. Sending Powell won't alienate Israel but may buy us some credibility where we currently have less than none. 113221[/snapback] Arabs don't need any more reasons to hate the US on top of the daily bombardment of visuals on Al Jazeera. THe Arab Street already believes that the US is a tool of devil incarnate, Israel. Showing Powell at the funeral won't change the perception. But whether it will be shown on hate TV or not, actual meetings of top US admin with new Palestinian leaders will send a strong message to people who matter (including Hamas) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 Yes, let's legitimize murderers, terrorists and thugs everywhere. Let's send someone who will wax poetic about how wonderful a person Arafat was, how he was such a universally misunderstood guy. How he was a visionary and brought the whole world together in love and harmony. How he so adroitly managed the PA's finances to the benefit of his own people. How he stopped radicals like Hamas and Islamic Jihad from killing women and children. Let's all sing Yassir Arafat's praises! Send Jimmy Carter!! 113148[/snapback] What are you talking about? Did I say he was misunderstood? Did I say he brought the world together? Did I say he stopped radicals? Did I say he was wonderful? Did I even suggest that our rep should make a speech of any kind? The answer to all that is: no. What I did say was that what happens tommorow is more important than anyone's opinion of the now dead Arafat. It is a question of diplomacy that is all. I clearly pointed out that it was a difficult question and made no claim to owning all the wisdom on the issue. In response, I get this hysterical rant from you. Why do you bother? Seriously, what do you get out of this kind of response? There is no information being exchanged here, there is nothing being learned. You might as well be flashing old ladies in the park. Other than whatever preverse enjoyment you get out of it, there really is no point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 You might as well be flashing old ladies in the park. 113249[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 You might as well be flashing old ladies in the park. 113249[/snapback] I'll have to remember that line! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 The flip side of that being: Arafat was an avowed terrorist, and sending Powell potentially sends the message to other terrorist groups that it's possible to become a "good" or at least "acceptable" terrorist to the US government if you work at it long enough. I don't think that's the message we want to be sending either. And of course, there's the flip-side to that flip-side: everyone else is likely to send very senior officials if not actual heads-of-state, and you don't want to send someone that's going to appear grossly inequal to them, as you run the risk of other nations believing we're putting them on a grossly inferior level vis-a-vis us. Really, it's a very fine line. As a practical matter, I don't think we should send someone as senior as Powell for a great variety of reasons...yet, I don't think we can send some junior flunky, either. My gut feeling is it'll end up being Powell who goes...but I'd be far more comfortable with Armitage, myself. 113231[/snapback] I know we see him as an "avowed terrorist" but the people we are trying to make headway with sees him as a moderate, a guy who actually tried to sincerely work with us and Israel. Sending someone like Powell won't signal to them that there are good terrorists because to them he is not a terrorist. Besides, given our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, I don't think we are in danger any time soon of terrorists thinking we are okay with it. I don't agree with their view of him as a patriot and a moderate, not even close but the reality is that is what they see him as and we aren't going to ever, ever change their minds on that. Problem is, we have to have some credibility with them if we are to be an effective mediator. Fine line, I know but there aren't many perfect answers or solutions without drawbacks in that area of the world. Anyway, glad it isn't my decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 Arabs don't need any more reasons to hate the US on top of the daily bombardment of visuals on Al Jazeera. THe Arab Street already believes that the US is a tool of devil incarnate, Israel. Showing Powell at the funeral won't change the perception. But whether it will be shown on hate TV or not, actual meetings of top US admin with new Palestinian leaders will send a strong message to people who matter (including Hamas) 113240[/snapback] That is certainly a valid viewpoint but if we are to ever try and counter what they see on Al Jazeera, we have to start somewhere. Why wouldn't Hamas see that the US is renewing its attempts to cultivate moderates among the Palestinian leadership, or potential leaders anyway which would, if successful, leave them out in the cold? It is a crazy place. Up is down, down is up and sideways is crossways. No course of action would be much better than slightly more advantageous than another. Thanks for the rational discussion by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 Thanks for the rational discussion by the way. 113274[/snapback] Screw you snapperhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 I know we see him as an "avowed terrorist" but the people we are trying to make headway with sees him as a moderate, a guy who actually tried to sincerely work with us and Israel. Sending someone like Powell won't signal to them that there are good terrorists because to them he is not a terrorist. Besides, given our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, I don't think we are in danger any time soon of terrorists thinking we are okay with it. I don't agree with their view of him as a patriot and a moderate, not even close but the reality is that is what they see him as and we aren't going to ever, ever change their minds on that. Problem is, we have to have some credibility with them if we are to be an effective mediator. Fine line, I know but there aren't many perfect answers or solutions without drawbacks in that area of the world. Anyway, glad it isn't my decision. 113264[/snapback] I see - and agree completely with - your point about whoever we send being a sign of our future intentions wrt the PA, rather than our past. Don't need to argue that point with me. The other, though...about him being viewed as a "moderate" by his own people...I see your point. I'm just not sure I'm buying it completely. I could just as easily make the argument that to a lot of them he's the same caliber of hero as bin Laden, or that, having much longer memories than your typical Westerner, are still much more aware of his terrorist roots. Though it all does boil down to what precisely his people think of him...I just don't know what that is, nor would I necessarily be confident in allowing the choice of representation at his funeral to represent his people's view of him, regardless of ours. Better, I think, to send a less senior official to the funeral while a more senior one is sent to recognize a new, moderate Palestinian leadership, as a way of seeing "We recognize your importance as a people...and further recognize your commitment to a more moderate and peaceful solution going forward, which was lacking under your previous leadership". My uber-cat, however, thinks ";'[pppppppppppppppppppppp" (she typed that herself). Overall...the situation's complex enough that I can't say I can really disagree with her, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 And of course, another catch is that we could end up sending someone who's out the door in a few months anyway. Send Powell, for instance...and on January 20th, we have a new Secretary of State who doesn't necessarily share Powell's views on the Palestinian issue anyway. And I have absolutely no idea how that might factor into things. It might not even factor at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VabeachBledsoefan Posted November 11, 2004 Author Share Posted November 11, 2004 What are you talking about? Did I say he was misunderstood? Did I say he brought the world together? Did I say he stopped radicals? Did I say he was wonderful? Did I even suggest that our rep should make a speech of any kind? The answer to all that is: no. What I did say was that what happens tommorow is more important than anyone's opinion of the now dead Arafat. It is a question of diplomacy that is all. I clearly pointed out that it was a difficult question and made no claim to owning all the wisdom on the issue. In response, I get this hysterical rant from you. Why do you bother? Seriously, what do you get out of this kind of response? There is no information being exchanged here, there is nothing being learned. You might as well be flashing old ladies in the park. Other than whatever preverse enjoyment you get out of it, there really is no point. 113249[/snapback] I think he is out of his league debating you on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 I think he is out of his league debating you on this 113321[/snapback] Scratch all after "debating". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 Screw you snapperhead. 113286[/snapback] Is that a promotion or demotion from "puddinhead"? I forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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