Chump Change Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 So you are telling me they didn't see more pay increases during the Clinton regime? Were you alongside them in the Navy too? Who's to the say he didn't see more? You are assuming a lot. Even under Carter, the military COLA's were pretty high. Um, yes. Did you even look at the link I posted? The military LOST GROUND WRT the civilian pay gap during the Clinton years. The gap rose from 11.5% to 13.5%. What part of that is difficult for you to understand? Again, facts suck don't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Um, yes. Did you even look at the link I posted? The military LOST GROUND WRT the civilian pay gap during the Clinton years. The gap rose from 11.5% to 13.5%. What part of that is difficult for you to understand? Again, facts suck don't they? No. I did not... It was sandwiched inbetween posts after I posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chump Change Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 No. I did not... It was sandwiched inbetween posts after I posted. Isn't this the place where the Blzrul crowd would call you a retard or something? I won't do that to you because I know you're 'special'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Um, yes. Did you even look at the link I posted? The military LOST GROUND WRT the civilian pay gap during the Clinton years. The gap rose from 11.5% to 13.5%. What part of that is difficult for you to understand? Again, facts suck don't they? I totally agree that statistics can be a lot of fun and a completely bullet proof branch of mathematics. Traditionally the military has always been way behind civilian pay which is wrong...but there are a multitude of benefits and variables that can more even out the field and a lot of these were raised under Clinton. Did he do all of them and raise them enough...I would say no...but explain to me this...how many civilians do you know that are 2 years removed from high school that can pull down 38k base pay, make no rent payments or medical for that matter, fly just about anywhere in the US for free and make a bonus of roughly 7k a year tax free...all with no college education...I can name one... So in summary, my original statement sticks as is without the added subject matter you felt necessary to toss in there to "win" your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I totally agree that statistics can be a lot of fun and a completely bullet proof branch of mathematics. Traditionally the military has always been way behind civilian pay which is wrong...but there are a multitude of benefits and variables that can more even out the field and a lot of these were raised under Clinton. Did he do all of them and raise them enough...I would say no...but explain to me this...how many civilians do you know that are 2 years removed from high school that can pull down 38k base pay, make no rent payments or medical for that matter, fly just about anywhere in the US for free and make a bonus of roughly 7k a year tax free...all with no college education...I can name one... So in summary, my original statement sticks as is without the added subject matter you felt necessary to toss in there to "win" your argument. E3/E4's which is your 2 year, no college guys, do not make anywheres close to 38K. Military members do not fly anywhere for free. Rent is free only living on base, and bring a lot of restrictions with it. Including, inspections of property whenever the management wants, cleanups, etc... No military does not get a 7K bonus. Sure some specialty MOS's get a bonus at re-enlistment time, but not in the 7K per year range. What other lies you got? Way to ignore that not only do these men and women do these jobs to keep the military going, but they also have the honor of being shot at and abused by politicians like Hilary, obama, murtha, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 E3/E4's which is your 2 year, no college guys, do not make anywheres close to 38K. Military members do not fly anywhere for free. Rent is free only living on base, and bring a lot of restrictions with it. Including, inspections of property whenever the management wants, cleanups, etc... No military does not get a 7K bonus. Sure some specialty MOS's get a bonus at re-enlistment time, but not in the 7K per year range. What other lies you got? Way to ignore that not only do these men and women do these jobs to keep the military going, but they also have the honor of being shot at and abused by politicians like Hilary, obama, murtha, etc... E3/E4's which is your 2 year, no college guys, do not make anywheres close to 38K. E5 after month 30, got the records to back it. There was extremely high advancement rates back in 98-00 Military members do not fly anywhere for free. MAC flights my friend, look into it. You show up to any air station and they have flights transporting everywhere. I went home back to San Diego at least twice a year and paid $0.00 per flight Rent is free only living on base, and bring a lot of restrictions with it. Including, inspections of property whenever the management wants, cleanups, etc... Rent is in fact free when using BAH...once again, try some research. I had anapartment in Clairemont (San Diego) and got about a $1,500 allowance for rent. And that was with no dependents. Married folks get a little more than that. Knew plenty of people in the mid 20's that had a family and were home owners off base No military does not get a 7K bonus. Sure some specialty MOS's get a bonus at re-enlistment time, but not in the 7K per year range. You do in fact get signing bonuses and reenlisment bonuses as well (like $26,000 tax free for a 4 year contract) What other lies you got? Way to ignore that not only do these men and women do these jobs to keep the military going, but they also have the honor of being shot at and abused by politicians like Hilary, obama, murtha, etc... How many more well thought out counterpoints might you have...? Don't feel bad though, many people talk far out of their ass when they've never served and totally rely on what they think is news from unqualified sources Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Taken from http://www.defenselink.mil/militarypay/mpc...lators/RMC.aspx Compensation calculator for single E5 living in San Diego Your Results Monthly Basic Pay $2,334.90 BAS $323.87 BAH $1,680.00 Cash Total $4,338.77 Annual Basic Pay $28,018.80 BAS $3,886.44 BAH $20,160.00 Total $52,065.24 Tax Advantage monthly 498.17 annually 5,977.99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 E3/E4's which is your 2 year, no college guys, do not make anywheres close to 38K. E5 after month 30, got the records to back it. There was extremely high advancement rates back in 98-00 Military members do not fly anywhere for free. MAC flights my friend, look into it. You show up to any air station and they have flights transporting everywhere. I went home back to San Diego at least twice a year and paid $0.00 per flight Rent is free only living on base, and bring a lot of restrictions with it. Including, inspections of property whenever the management wants, cleanups, etc... Rent is in fact free when using BAH...once again, try some research. I had anapartment in Clairemont (San Diego) and got about a $1,500 allowance for rent. And that was with no dependents. Married folks get a little more than that. Knew plenty of people in the mid 20's that had a family and were home owners off base No military does not get a 7K bonus. Sure some specialty MOS's get a bonus at re-enlistment time, but not in the 7K per year range. You do in fact get signing bonuses and reenlisment bonuses as well (like $26,000 tax free for a 4 year contract) What other lies you got? Way to ignore that not only do these men and women do these jobs to keep the military going, but they also have the honor of being shot at and abused by politicians like Hilary, obama, murtha, etc... How many more well thought out counterpoints might you have...? Don't feel bad though, many people talk far out of their ass when they've never served and totally rely on what they think is news from unqualified sources E5's do not make 38K a year. Right now an E5 with 2 years in gets 1,993.50 per month. last I checked 23,922 per year not 38K. Of course in your work 1,993.50 x 12 may equal 38K, but in the rest of the world, no it doesn't. When were you in, MAC flights are not as available as they once we (pre 80's) and failure to show up from vacation because you couldn't catch a flight is not an excuse. In the Marines, you had to show tickets if the distance was too far. Rent on base is free, but you have to do additional duty for it that you would not have to do otherwise. And bonuses like that are only for certain MOS's and are not the norm. Keep talking slick, you haven't got a clue about reality. Oh and to what you say above, E5 over 2 is 2,127.00 per month. Again neiother of which is 38K per year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 E5's do not make 38K a year. Right now an E5 with 2 years in gets 1,993.50 per month. last I checked 23,922 per year not 38K. Of course in your work 1,993.50 x 12 may equal 38K, but in the rest of the world, no it doesn't. When were you in, MAC flights are not as available as they once we (pre 80's) and failure to show up from vacation because you couldn't catch a flight is not an excuse. In the Marines, you had to show tickets if the distance was too far. Rent on base is free, but you have to do additional duty for it that you would not have to do otherwise. And bonuses like that are only for certain MOS's and are not the norm. Keep talking slick, you haven't got a clue about reality. Pre 80's talk = loss We're in the now "slick" and I can talk about my experiences which appear to be a little more up to date as I was discharged all of 2 years ago where I have no recollection of performing any extra duties...nor did I have a problem catching free flights... and to answer the missing flight, ever hear of a leave extension. Bitterness because not understanding how to work the system doesn't win you much, just bitterness about the service it seems. I've worked with plenty of folks like you who were disillusioned by what they thought the service was all about. And, my estimate error aside, you can clearly see from the benefits calculator above, total compensation far exceeds $38k About the only thing you were right about was the bonus part, but much like the civilian world, you get rewarded more for having a more advanced rating...once again, maybe you should have chosen a better career path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Pre 80's talk = loss We're in the now "slick" and I can talk about my experiences which appear to be a little more up to date as I was discharged all of 2 years ago where I have no recollection of performing any extra duties...nor did I have a problem catching free flights... and to answer the missing flight, ever hear of a leave extension. Bitterness because not understanding how to work the system doesn't win you much, just bitterness about the service it seems. I've worked with plenty of folks like you who were disillusioned by what they thought the service was all about. And, my estimate error aside, you can clearly see from the benefits calculator above, total compensation far exceeds $38k About the only thing you were right about was the bonus part, but much like the civilian world, you get rewarded more for having a more advanced rating...once again, maybe you should have chosen a better career path. Slick you said "how many civilians do you know that are 2 years removed from high school that can pull down 38k base pay," the base pay is not 38K - strike 1 Slick you said you can fly for free, anywhere in the US, and if you miss just get a leave extension- You obviously were part of a non-critical group and could afford to be missed. Sorry but marines are not like that. - strike 2 " make no rent payments " - again sure but you have base cleanup, inspections on a whime, etc... So not completely free of inconvienence - strike 3 " free medical " - sure but military medical and doctors suck - push " make a bonus of roughly 7k a year tax free" - no bonuses are not tax free and 7K is not 6500, and not everyone gets them, only specialists, which is a small percent of the military. Everyone else got a lot less and only when renlisting, not something that happens at 2 years, but more like 4 years - strikes 4,5,6 and 7. You're officially an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Slick you said "how many civilians do you know that are 2 years removed from high school that can pull down 38k base pay," the base pay is not 38K - strike 1 Slick you said you can fly for free, anywhere in the US, and if you miss just get a leave extension- You obviously were part of a non-critical group and could afford to be missed. Sorry but marines are not like that. - strike 2 " make no rent payments " - again sure but you have base cleanup, inspections on a whime, etc... So not completely free of inconvienence - strike 3 " free medical " - sure but military medical and doctors suck - push " make a bonus of roughly 7k a year tax free" - no bonuses are not tax free and 7K is not 6500, and not everyone gets them, only specialists, which is a small percent of the military. Everyone else got a lot less and only when renlisting, not something that happens at 2 years, but more like 4 years - strikes 4,5,6 and 7. You're officially an idiot. I already corrected the "38k" reference - "strike 1" No Extra Duties, as stated - strike 2 Critical personnel...that plays to your "select few" argument you are using against me - strike 3 Your punctuation sucks - strike 4-lost count anything else you want to nit pick at to help yourself out here. You've proven nothing other than your chances of winning an argument would be better if you took it up with a 6 year old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I already corrected the "38k" reference - "strike 1" No you didn't No Extra Duties, as stated - strike 2 You must have been part of some really pampered group. nowhere in the USMC is that true. Critical personnel...that plays to your "select few" argument you are using against me - strike 3 Again, it took you long enough to admit, and your blanket statements suck Your punctuation sucks - strike 4-lost count So, your definition of reality suck anything else you want to nit pick at to help yourself out here. You've proven nothing other than your chances of winning an argument would be better if you took it up with a 6 year old I already won this arguement. And BTW, I wasn't pre-80's. I was most of the 80's and know that MAC flights are a lot harder to catch than you let folks believe. keep up the lies. the military got screwed under Clinton, and is getting screwed every chance Obama and crew can get away with now. Also, Bush wasn't the best to the military either, but when compared to the other two, he is Reganish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Taken from http://www.defenselink.mil/militarypay/mpc...lators/RMC.aspx Compensation calculator for single E5 living in San Diego Your Results Monthly Basic Pay $2,334.90 BAS $323.87 BAH $1,680.00 Cash Total $4,338.77 Annual Basic Pay $28,018.80 BAS $3,886.44 BAH $20,160.00 Total $52,065.24 Tax Advantage monthly 498.17 annually 5,977.99 hmmm...at first glance, this appeared to be my correction...maybe I'm seeing this wrong I do apologize for grossly UNDER quoting the salary thing though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chump Change Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 I totally agree that statistics can be a lot of fun and a completely bullet proof branch of mathematics. Traditionally the military has always been way behind civilian pay which is wrong...but there are a multitude of benefits and variables that can more even out the field and a lot of these were raised under Clinton. Did he do all of them and raise them enough...I would say no...but explain to me this...how many civilians do you know that are 2 years removed from high school that can pull down 38k base pay, make no rent payments or medical for that matter, fly just about anywhere in the US for free and make a bonus of roughly 7k a year tax free...all with no college education...I can name one... So in summary, my original statement sticks as is without the added subject matter you felt necessary to toss in there to "win" your argument. Look, I'm not trying to start a pissing contest with you but merely point out the inaccuracy of your memory of the 'good old' Clinton days. I too served during that time and had a different memory, so I did some quick research and found that chart. The statistics on that chart are the same that Congress and the Gov't use to measure the gap between an index of civilian pay and military pay. I didn't cherry pick it; it is what it is. It's not win/lose for me. I also asked you to further explain your claim that he increased other benefits above what other administrations did and you offered no information. I really don't give a !@#$ buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Um, yes. Did you even look at the link I posted? The military LOST GROUND WRT the civilian pay gap during the Clinton years. The gap rose from 11.5% to 13.5%. What part of that is difficult for you to understand? Again, facts suck don't they? Compared to what??? The economy was going gang busters then and the government was making a very short lived effort to balance the budget.... of course the gap increased. If you compared those salaries to other government pay, I will bet you see a comparable if not worse gap. It did for a lot of lower income groups during that time period. I am surprised it wasn't higher given the rate of growth in this country. Nice understanding of stats... NOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Compared to what??? The economy was going gang busters then and the government was making a very short lived effort to balance the budget.... of course the gap increased. If you compared those salaries to other government pay, I will bet you see a comparable if not worse gap. It did for a lot of lower income groups during that time period. I am surprised it wasn't higher given the rate of growth in this country. Nice understanding of stats... NOT! ...zing! what do you call half the statisticians at the bottom of the ocean....50% there percentages and pie charts will only get you so far in life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 ...zing! what do you call half the statisticians at the bottom of the ocean....50% there percentages and pie charts will only get you so far in life Agreed and I used to create them for a living! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chump Change Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 I was actually in the Navy during Clintons reign and he did make quite a few improvements. We saw more pay raises and med reform under him than the military had seen in a while. Again Yellow Lines- Note Don's opinion that I responded to with facts, not opinion. I asked him on more than one occasion in this thread to clarify or provide evidence of his claim. He hasn't and now you jump into the fray with your bullschit? What 'med reform' is he talking about. Since you are the jock strap supporting him, maybe you can assist with his weak azz argument. The best he can come up with is "Zing!"? So statistics suck when they don't support your argument? I guess the percentage drop in the markets over the past year and a half are an illusion too, right? You're a gem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Again Yellow Lines- Note Don's opinion that I responded to with facts, not opinion. I asked him on more than one occasion in this thread to clarify or provide evidence of his claim. He hasn't and now you jump into the fray with your bullschit? What 'med reform' is he talking about. Since you are the jock strap supporting him, maybe you can assist with his weak azz argument. The best he can come up with is "Zing!"? So statistics suck when they don't support your argument? I guess the percentage drop in the markets over the past year and a half are an illusion too, right? You're a gem. No but your stats are out of context, so because of that, your analysis is limited and cannot be extrapolated to anything meaningful, hence why I asked in my first sentence... compared to what. But then again you never responded with anything other than a narrow comparison. Civil Servant and governmental service pay was limited back then too and in the private sector during this time period pay at private firms was growing exponentially. This inequity was government wide and not limited to your flag waving partisan patriotic flag waving judgmentalism. So to go a little more "Fair and Balanced"....Republicans on the Hill constantly fought pay raises for civilians and the military, those are facts. I can go do the vote research on bills if you need them, but I was there. Both sides were looking for ways to balance the budget. Clinton reduced USDA and Commerce personnel by over 30,000 employees each during this time period. Buyouts, incentive retirements and force reductions were common place. My only point is get off your partisan high horse and understand correctly the facts that you are presenting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chump Change Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 No but your stats are out of context, so because of that, your analysis is limited and cannot be extrapolated to anything meaningful, hence why I asked in my first sentence... compared to what. But then again you never responded with anything other than a narrow comparison. Civil Servant and governmental service pay was limited back then too and in the private sector during this time period pay at private firms was growing exponentially. This inequity was government wide and not limited to your flag waving partisan patriotic flag waving judgmentalism. So to go a little more "Fair and Balanced"....Republicans on the Hill constantly fought pay raises for civilians and the military, those are facts. I can go do the vote research on bills if you need them, but I was there. Both sides were looking for ways to balance the budget. Clinton reduced USDA and Commerce personnel by over 30,000 employees each during this time period. Buyouts, incentive retirements and force reductions were common place. My only point is get off your partisan high horse and understand correctly the facts that you are presenting. Link? What is narrow and partisian about the link I submitted? I do not disagree that there was a push to balance the budget during that time, I remember it well. I understand the statistics I presented. Where are yours to the contrary? The fact remains that Don posted an opinion which I countered and you seem to support, but neither of you have provided any evidence to refute my argument. WTF does the USDA have to do with military pay and Don's original statement? Show me the money or STFU. If you re-read the post you'll see I've not commented on "Clinton Bad' but merely pointed out that Don (and you) were wrong. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts