Coordinators

[RShirley]

When coaches make bad decisions on gameday, they lose. Whether it's playcalling (at NYJ) or which players to start (an injured McGee over a healthy McKelvin) or which players to draft (Whitner over Ngata), it's clear DJ isn't good enough in all phases of the game. I'm not sure who your sources are, but if DJ was a good HC, he would have proven it by now. He's hired four OC's in his 8 seasons as a HC. Three of them are in the college ranks and won't return anytime soon. Neither of his two DC hires were/are very special. No rational NFL "insider" would say DJ is anything more than a guy lucky to be working for a minor league NFL team.

 

But I'm still confused. You'd rather see DJ fired, but want to keep the same coordinators for the sake of continuity. That's a non-sequitur, and goes against your original post.

 

DJ is a bad coach, and I'd wager that there are few in league circles who agree DJ is even below average.

 

Sounds like he has the same NFL source as SKOOBY does

[The Senator]

Sounds like he has the same NFL source as SKOOBY does

SKOOBY is his source.

[Alphadawg7]

SKOOBY is his source.

 

lol, nope he's not my source...I have several friends at various levels of the NFL, some still playing, some coaching, some in the front office type capacity, etc. from my days of college ball while starting 4 years for a top ranked Pac 10 team.

 

Honestly, I don't really care if anyone on this board believes he is still viewed in NFL circles as a good coach, especially since most on here are often irrational and incapable of seperating the butt hurt emotion from logically looking at any given situation with the Bills. Truth is, it's a fact...he still is thought of as a good coach in NFL circles, and that fact has even been mentioned in the media since he was retained.

[Alphadawg7]

When coaches make bad decisions on gameday, they lose. Whether it's playcalling (at NYJ) or which players to start (an injured McGee over a healthy McKelvin) or which players to draft (Whitner over Ngata), it's clear DJ isn't good enough in all phases of the game. I'm not sure who your sources are, but if DJ was a good HC, he would have proven it by now. He's hired four OC's in his 8 seasons as a HC. Three of them are in the college ranks and won't return anytime soon. Neither of his two DC hires were/are very special. No rational NFL "insider" would say DJ is anything more than a guy lucky to be working for a minor league NFL team.

 

But I'm still confused. You'd rather see DJ fired, but want to keep the same coordinators for the sake of continuity. That's a non-sequitur, and goes against your original post.

 

DJ is a bad coach, and I'd wager that there are few in league circles who agree DJ is even below average.

 

1. When coaches make bad decisions, they do NOT always lose...see Mike Tomlin, Tom Coughlin, John Fox, Andy Reid and just about every other NFL coach. Great teams and players can over come coaching mistakes. That is about as irrational statement as you can make.

 

2. First off, on DJ, I am not a general supporter of him. I only posted that he is still thought of as a good coach in several NFL circles. However, I firmly believe that with the POOR, let me say this again, POOR overall QB quality we have had that our last few seasons wouldnt have been much different regardless of our coach. Add in the lack of depth killing us because we have been decimated by injuries, and you have a recipe for marginal seasons.

 

3. The GM, or lack of true GM, is this teams biggest need in terms of staff. We need a true GM who knows football talent to maximize our drafts and FA pickups. This falls on Ralphs lap, not DJ's.

 

4. I never once said keep the coordinators and fire DJ, not once...I swear its like you read 4 words of a post and make up the rest. The original topic of this post was WHY did we keep our coordinators. I said its because if you are going to keep DJ this upcoming season, you have to keep the coordinators for continuity, especially since DJ WILL be fired if he doesnt have a winning season this year and who ever we bring in to replace him will bring their own coordinators. You don't switch the offense on a young QB this again, then do it again next year too (see JP Losman).

 

5. I am sure there are circles in the NFL that have various oppinnions on DJ, but I am telling you that there is also support for him and he still often viewed as a good coach who gets a lot our of his players.

 

At some point, fans of this board are going to have to realize that we don't have enough talent or depth to be much better than we are, especially when injuries hit. And we will NEVER be able to consistently win and be a SB contender until we improve at the QB spot because no other area of our team is dominant enough to make up for the defeciencies at the QB position we have.

[Alphadawg7]

And for the record, I can't stand Turk...do not confuse my understanding as to why we kept Turk as support for Turk.

 

DJ is really on a one year deal...produce a winning season or he is gone. So, you let DJ keep his coordinators this year and if they dont produce then you fire DJ and let the new HC bring in their own coordinators. If you fire the coordinators now, and end up firing the HC next year too who brings in their own coordinators, then you have your young QB learning 3 systems in 3 years, which is not the recipe for developing your QB.

[The Senator]

lol, nope he's not my source...I have several friends at various levels of the NFL, some still playing, some coaching, some in the front office type capacity, etc. from my days of college ball while starting 4 years for a top ranked Pac 10 team.

 

Cute. It's fun to make-believe.

 

Honestly, I don't really care if anyone on this board believes he is still viewed in NFL circles as a good coach, especially since most on here are often irrational and incapable of seperating the butt hurt emotion from logically looking at any given situation with the Bills. Truth is, it's a fact...he still is thought of as a good coach in NFL circles, and that fact has even been mentioned in the media since he was retained.

 

You blew any/all credibility weeks ago with that argument .

[BillsVet]

1. When coaches make bad decisions, they do NOT always lose...see Mike Tomlin, Tom Coughlin, John Fox, Andy Reid and just about every other NFL coach. Great teams and players can over come coaching mistakes. That is about as irrational statement as you can make.

 

2. First off, on DJ, I am not a general supporter of him. I only posted that he is still thought of as a good coach in several NFL circles. However, I firmly believe that with the POOR, let me say this again, POOR overall QB quality we have had that our last few seasons wouldnt have been much different regardless of our coach. Add in the lack of depth killing us because we have been decimated by injuries, and you have a recipe for marginal seasons.

 

4. I never once said keep the coordinators and fire DJ, not once...I swear its like you read 4 words of a post and make up the rest. The original topic of this post was WHY did we keep our coordinators. I said its because if you are going to keep DJ this upcoming season, you have to keep the coordinators for continuity, especially since DJ WILL be fired if he doesnt have a winning season this year and who ever we bring in to replace him will bring their own coordinators. You don't switch the offense on a young QB this again, then do it again next year too (see JP Losman).

 

5. I am sure there are circles in the NFL that have various oppinnions on DJ, but I am telling you that there is also support for him and he still often viewed as a good coach who gets a lot our of his players.

 

I should have clarified on coaches making poor decisions: there are moments in a game that a coach can do the right thing or make the wrong choice. The call to roll Losman out and have him throw a pass to the FB is a catastrophically bad decision that affected the outcome of a game. Deciding to go for it on 4th and 1 in the second quarter and fail isn't as huge a thing. DJ tends to screw up at the worst possible moment and we've seen it through three seasons. I can list no less than 5 games in the past 2 seasons he's made catastrophically bad decisisons that determined the game. I personally don't think he's more than a coordinator if it weren't for Buffalo.

 

I'm not demanding a firing of the HC without the coordinators. I didn't say you said that. If DJ goes, all of them should go. But again, we're talking about a team that's been in rebuild mode for three seasons. If DJ had as much personnel control as I think he did, it's amazing he doesn't bear more responsibility for such a thin team. And he's proven he can't find reliable coordinators, neither here nor Chicago. He can't coach, and he doesn't know talent. Those are fatal flaws for a HC.

 

Second, there's no way I can confirm or deny your sources. However, there are some very knowledgeable fans on this board who see more than what a casual fan does. I've been to 14 of the last 15 home games, and while that doesn't make me an expert, I've been able to deduce what kind of coach DJ is. He'll generally make the safe pick, but not all the time. Occasionally he gets a wild streak and goes for it. But if one bad thing happens, he goes into his shell.

 

For the record, Edwards' durability is my only major concern with him. The coaching he receives is another matter. Watching him after the Cleveland game and throwing 3 picks, I wondered who would get him going. He doesn't have a mentor on that team to work with him. Van Pelt and Schonert are former QB's, but they're not preparing him adequately. To have no answer for 3-4 defenses so many times is appalling. But we're talking about a guy with little more than a season's worth of starts. I'll give him more time.

[Mark Long Beach]

Cute. It's fun to make-believe.

 

 

 

You blew any/all credibility weeks ago with that argument .

 

 

Why all the attacks?

 

The man is posting his football opinions and backing up his arguments.

 

That's what we should do on the board. Not personal attacks. Yes I know the Bills have been sucking lately but that shouldn't mean that we turn on each other. We all want (well most of us anyways) the Bills to succeed.

[reddogblitz]

Also saw this quote: "That's the great thing about football," Leach says. "All you gotta do is yell."

 

I don't think that college/high school rah rah yell yell crap translates as well into the NFL. The players are grown men and have heard these kind of rah rah yelling things so much now it's just water off a duck's back. An NFL coach has to inspire by leadership, good plans, and good players.

 

Most successful NFL coaches aren't yellers: Tony Dungy, John Fox, Andy Reed, Mike Holgren, Ken Wisenhutt,

[The Senator]

Also saw this quote: "That's the great thing about football," Leach says. "All you gotta do is yell."

 

I don't think that college/high school rah rah yell yell crap translates as well into the NFL. The players are grown men and have heard these kind of rah rah yelling things so much now it's just water off a duck's back. An NFL coach has to inspire by leadership, good plans, and good players.

 

Most successful NFL coaches aren't yellers: Tony Dungy, John Fox, Andy Reed, Mike Holgren, Ken Wisenhutt,

JMO, but I don't really think of ML as a 'yeller' - just a very entertaining guy and passionate coach with a 76-39 record as HC.

 

Leach is much more of an intellectual, a thinking coach - just hides it well behind a colorful personality and deceptively 'aw shucks' manner. (In addition to a BS from BYU and law degree from Pepperdine, he also has a Masters in Sports Science/Coaching - whatever that is - from the United States Sports Academy.)

 

Besides, who would you rather watch do the post game 'presser' -

 

Dick Jauron?

 

or

 

Mike Leach?

[Alphadawg7]

I should have clarified on coaches making poor decisions: there are moments in a game that a coach can do the right thing or make the wrong choice. The call to roll Losman out and have him throw a pass to the FB is a catastrophically bad decision that affected the outcome of a game. Deciding to go for it on 4th and 1 in the second quarter and fail isn't as huge a thing. DJ tends to screw up at the worst possible moment and we've seen it through three seasons. I can list no less than 5 games in the past 2 seasons he's made catastrophically bad decisisons that determined the game. I personally don't think he's more than a coordinator if it weren't for Buffalo.

 

Agree with you here about mistakes...as I said, I am not a DJ supporter and prefer he be replaced, but I don't feel he is our worst problem.

 

I'm not demanding a firing of the HC without the coordinators. I didn't say you said that. If DJ goes, all of them should go. But again, we're talking about a team that's been in rebuild mode for three seasons. If DJ had as much personnel control as I think he did, it's amazing he doesn't bear more responsibility for such a thin team. And he's proven he can't find reliable coordinators, neither here nor Chicago. He can't coach, and he doesn't know talent. Those are fatal flaws for a HC.

 

He doesnt have as much personnel control as you think he does.

 

Second, there's no way I can confirm or deny your sources. However, there are some very knowledgeable fans on this board who see more than what a casual fan does. I've been to 14 of the last 15 home games, and while that doesn't make me an expert, I've been able to deduce what kind of coach DJ is. He'll generally make the safe pick, but not all the time. Occasionally he gets a wild streak and goes for it. But if one bad thing happens, he goes into his shell.

 

For the record, Edwards' durability is my only major concern with him. The coaching he receives is another matter. Watching him after the Cleveland game and throwing 3 picks, I wondered who would get him going. He doesn't have a mentor on that team to work with him. Van Pelt and Schonert are former QB's, but they're not preparing him adequately. To have no answer for 3-4 defenses so many times is appalling. But we're talking about a guy with little more than a season's worth of starts. I'll give him more time.

 

You have to be kidding here. Trents only problem is durability? How about his clear inability to find open recievers, or his tendency to hold the ball too long, or his not protecting the ball, or the clear fact that he really regressed as soon as he hit a little rough patch and showed no signs of working his way through it?

 

I mean, once he struggled, he played the QB position like a dear in head lights. Very hesitant, read defenses poorly, missed wide open recievers just to check it down, often throwing passes behind or near the line of scrimmage. He has shown nothing to indicate that he can make it in this league, and don't bring up his 4th quarter comebacks against the worst pass defenses in the NFL. We had to come back because he did squat in the first 3 quarters. And in three of those comebacks, our D (Mitchells pick in one and Greer Int in another for a TD) and our ST bailed us for the most part to turn the game around in the 4th. Trent's best game this season would be an average game at best for a top QB in this league. You can even argue the last half of the year was as bad as anything JP or Rob Johnson have put up.

[BillsObserver]

I really want to give Dick Jauron the benefit of the doubt and hope he can make a Tom Coughlin-like turnaround as a coach, but do you really believe there's a circle of people (who are successful) who think he is a good coach? Do they even watch Bills games? Is this circle of people led by Marv Levy?

 

Seriously, don't fool yourself. Do you honestly believe some of the best in the game, like Bill Belichick, think he's a good coach? He's kicked the living hell out of Dick since he arrived in Buffalo. And it hasn't been close. I could care less when people like John Clayton praise Dick. It means nothing because he doesn't watch Bills games like we do. I'm not even sure that guy watches Bills games.

[Alphadawg7]

I really want to give Dick Jauron the benefit of the doubt and hope he can make a Tom Coughlin-like turnaround as a coach, but do you really believe there's a circle of people (who are successful) who think he is a good coach? Do they even watch Bills games? Is this circle of people led by Marv Levy?

 

Seriously, don't fool yourself. Do you honestly believe some of the best in the game, like Bill Belichick, think he's a good coach? He's kicked the living hell out of Dick since he arrived in Buffalo. And it hasn't been close. I could care less when people like John Clayton praise Dick. It means nothing because he doesn't watch Bills games like we do. I'm not even sure that guy watches Bills games.

 

 

wow...let me clarify again...I am not saying he is viewed as a top 10 coach by everyone in the NFL, geesh...

 

I said, there are NFL circles that do still view him as a good coach who gets a lot our of his players. The coaching job he did in 2007 is viewed as one of the better coaching jobs that year, and it even earned us a Monday night football game this year and made Buffalo more relevant than it had been in years because of how hard our team played in 07, especially given how decimated by injuries we were that year and having the QB crap going on.

 

Heck, halfway through this year is was in the running for coach of the year. WHY, becuase we were OVER ACHIEVING at 5-1! Even with our weak schedule, no one had us pegged to start that hot. Sure the team collapsed during the second half, but we also lost 3 key players on D (Schobel, Greer, and Youboty) that factored in big in our 5-1 start and we lost key players on offense (Trent, O Line, and Reed)...all contributors in our fast start. Not to mention we had other injuries, lost Crowell, etc. and we just didnt have the depth to recover.

 

Truth is, the biggest factor in our mid season decline was the play at QB during that stretch and our lack of depth to over come injuries...no question about it.

 

Sure you can pick at some plays and say DJ made the wrong call, and he did make bad calls, but what about the REST of that game when our QB struggled to complete a pass, couldnt see wide open WR's, was totally gun shy...often against below average pass defenses...

[Guest dog14787]

wow...let me clarify again...I am not saying he is viewed as a top 10 coach by everyone in the NFL, geesh...

 

I said, there are NFL circles that do still view him as a good coach who gets a lot our of his players. The coaching job he did in 2007 is viewed as one of the better coaching jobs that year, and it even earned us a Monday night football game this year and made Buffalo more relevant than it had been in years because of how hard our team played in 07, especially given how decimated by injuries we were that year and having the QB crap going on.

 

Heck, halfway through this year is was in the running for coach of the year. WHY, becuase we were OVER ACHIEVING at 5-1! Even with our weak schedule, no one had us pegged to start that hot. Sure the team collapsed during the second half, but we also lost 3 key players on D (Schobel, Greer, and Youboty) that factored in big in our 5-1 start and we lost key players on offense (Trent, O Line, and Reed)...all contributors in our fast start. Not to mention we had other injuries, lost Crowell, etc. and we just didnt have the depth to recover.

 

Truth is, the biggest factor in our mid season decline was the play at QB during that stretch and our lack of depth to over come injuries...no question about it.

 

Sure you can pick at some plays and say DJ made the wrong call, and he did make bad calls, but what about the REST of that game when our QB struggled to complete a pass, couldnt see wide open WR's, was totally gun shy...often against below average pass defenses...

 

 

 

I was leaning towards giving DJ the benefit of a doubt, mainly because the team plays hard for him, but after reading the majority of this thread I realize now that we are doomed.

 

 

Even our opponents like Jauron allot cuz his team plays hard and he's a real nice guy.

[Guest dog14787]

I was leaning towards giving DJ the benefit of a doubt, mainly because the team plays hard for him, but after reading the majority of this thread I realize now that we are doomed.

 

 

Even our opponents like Jauron allot cuz his team plays hard and he's a real nice guy.

 

 

 

Nawww, just kidding, but Shonert on the other hand needs to be busted down to towel boy.

[billnutinphoenix]

Too Cheap, Ralph goes for cheap coaches over good ones!

 

 

Totally agree...This an area where Ralph has NEVER spent any money...

[Sisyphean Bills]

wow...let me clarify again...I am not saying he is viewed as a top 10 coach by everyone in the NFL, geesh...

 

I said, there are NFL circles that do still view him as a good coach who gets a lot our of his players.

Do you think that Rod Marinelli was a good coach in Detroit? You are vastly underestimating the fraternal bonds between NFL coaches and insiders. Marinelli coached the worst team of the modern era and lost his job because of it and deservedly so. It had nothing to do with him or his knowledge and everything to do with the results he produced in his position as HC of the 0-16 Detroit Lions. Indeed, he's an outstanding human being. He's a wonderful, always-positive, great guy with his head screwed on straight. He is one of the best football coaches on the planet and compared to the average Joe on the street, he's a football genius. But, put him in a weak organization and stack him up against the other best football geniuses of his era and he doesn't cut it; and, it isn't even close.

[BillsVet]

Do you think that Rod Marinelli was a good coach in Detroit? You are vastly underestimating the fraternal bounds between NFL coaches and insiders. Marinelli coached the worst team of the modern era and lost his job because of it and deservedly so. It had nothing to do with him or his knowledge and everything to do with the results he produced in his position as HC of the 0-16 Detroit Lions. Indeed, he's an outstanding human being. He's a wonderful, always-positive, great guy with his head screwed on straight. He is one of the best football coaches on the planet and compared to the average Joe on the street, he's a football genius. But, put him in a weak organization and stack him up against the other best football geniuses of his era and he doesn't cut it; and, it isn't even close.

 

But is that what your sources tell you?

 

Successful coaches almost need to be amateur psychologists who keep themselves slightly apart from their players. When I hear that players love their coaches and have experienced no success together, it makes me doubt their mindset.

 

Marinelli was/is/and never should have been a HC. And after what DJ did in Chicago, he should never have returned as a HC. Neither have a handle on how a team should run, and both failed to find good coordinators during their time as HC's.

[Sisyphean Bills]

But is that what your sources tell you?

 

Successful coaches almost need to be amateur psychologists who keep themselves slightly apart from their players. When I hear that players love their coaches and have experienced no success together, it makes me doubt their mindset.

 

Marinelli was/is/and never should have been a HC. And after what DJ did in Chicago, he should never have returned as a HC. Neither have a handle on how a team should run, and both failed to find good coordinators during their time as HC's.

Being an unsuccessful NFL HC just doesn't equate to being a bad football coach. That should be obvious. Lou Holtz stunk as an NFL HC; but, he won National Championships at the collegiate level. Ditto with Pete Carroll, Nick Saban, Dennis Erickson, and Steve Spurrier. Also notable are Rich Brooks, June Jones, Bobby Petrino, Mike Riley, and Butch Davis. None of these guys are bad coaches, but none of them were of the rarefied air of elite NFL coaches that could charter a team to a Super Bowl victory either.

 

As far as Marinelli, it is interesting to note that he is also a Tony Dungy Tampa-2 disciple (ref. Perry Fewell) and he tried to build a "small and fast" Tampa-2 defense in Detroit. Well, at least he had a dome over his head and a fast track for his runt turtles.

[2003Contenders]

Its all about the money and always will be with Wilson!

 

Jauron is getting 1/2 as much as three new head coaches hired last season from a coordinator position,Harbaugh,Smith and Spagnulo. Then he would need to eat Jauron's contract for 4.5 mill while paying someone else,never happen.

 

 

Have you come across reports that I haven't regarding the specifics of Jauron's contract extension? Remember, he reportedly signed the extension when the team was 5-1 and his name was being mentioned as a possible Head Coach of the Year candidate. I would suspect that he is now being paid the going rate for head coaches in the league -- and eating his contract would have cost significantly more than the $4.5 M you suggest. Not to mention, whatever amount it would have cost for his replacement and entire new staff.