Buftex Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Miiny actually runs the tampa-2... the key is a top notch DL, not that much of a secret Funny, isn't it? When Jauron/Fewell first came to Buffalo, we were told that the Bills didn't need big dudes to plug up the middle, for the Tampa 2, they needed fast, athletic guys...you know, guys like Larry Tripplett. The Williams boys who have anchored the Vikings D-line for the last few years aren't exactly small, or fast...for that matter, Stroud is really on the smaller side of big defensive tackles. So, it seems that in the move to get this Tampa 2 defense implemented, the Bills have committed themselves to a bunch of D-linemen who aren't big enough to push Olines around, or quite fast enough to wreak havic in the opposing backfield...the best we can hope from our D-line is a batted down pass every now and again...I hate our defense too. It is fine against bad offensive teams, but with the guys we have now, that defense is never going to shut down a good offensive team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Funny, isn't it? When Jauron/Fewell first came to Buffalo, we were told that the Bills didn't need big dudes to plug up the middle, for the Tampa 2, they needed fast, athletic guys...you know, guys like Larry Tripplett. The Williams boys who have anchored the Vikings D-line for the last few years aren't exactly small, or fast...for that matter, Stroud is really on the smaller side of big defensive tackles. So, it seems that in the move to get this Tampa 2 defense implemented, the Bills have committed themselves to a bunch of D-linemen who aren't big enough to push Olines around, or quite fast enough to wreak havic in the opposing backfield...the best we can hope from our D-line is a batted down pass every now and again...I hate our defense too. It is fine against bad offensive teams, but with the guys we have now, that defense is never going to shut down a good offensive team. In a less boisterous way, DJ wanted to be the smartest guy on the block with his smaller and quicker DT's. Ultimately many of the savvy football fans here were right in declaring this wouldn't work, particularly in the bad weather. Being at the NYG game last season was at least some vindication. Some HC's want to reinvent the wheel, especially those who were unsuccessful in a previous job or used to be coordinators. It's been said many times, but the C2/T2 depends on opponents making mistakes. When they don't, it has issues. Certainly it's vulnerable to a strong power running game. We saw that in the Cleveland game in 07. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobillsinytown Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Excellent post. But I think there might be a little too much going into the whole "scheme" issue. No defense plays a 4-3, 3-4 or C2 all the time. It depends on down and distance. You make a great point that a defense needs the right players, in the right combination, with the right coaching, to be champoinship caliber. I think the specific scheme is important, but maybe not so much as we think. There are really only two critical elements that a successful defense has to have: Stop the run. Rush the passer. Not necessarily sack the quarterback on every pass play, but rather consistently bring pressure and clog up the passing lanes and timing routes. Last year's Giants defense is a great example. They didn't sack Brady on every pass play, but they did put enough pressure on him to disrupt his timing routes, which he relied on all season. So if a defense can dictate what's going to happen at the line of scrimmage, it goes a long way. I think the T2/C2 defenses depend on specialized personnel so much, that unless you have them it's tough to run that defense effectively. A 3-4 or standard 4-3 isn't as dependent on specialized players, particularly LB's who can go into zone defense, yet be fast enough to attack the LOS. The old Tampa Bay teams had great players with DT's Booger McFarland and Warren Sapp, WLB Derrick Brooks, SS John Lynch, MLB Shelton Quarles, and DE Simeon Rice. Those guys fit their scheme perfectly, and were acquired with the T2 in mind. Pittsburgh did the same thing with DT Joe Greene, DE L.C. Greenwood, MLB Lambert, WLB Ham, SLB Andy Russell, and SS Mike Wagner. Mel Blount was an excellent CB, and probably would fit into a C2 today. The point is, player specialization is greater in the C2. Buffalo doesn't have the top personnel, and so it makes it hard to adapt the players to the scheme. I think the hardest positions to find for a C2 defense is a 3 tech DT and a WLB. Their skill set is very rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Right - saying the T2 needs shut-down corners is essentially saying you don't know what the T2 is. Sorry. As multiple others have stated - it definitely demands pass rush from the DL with less blitzing, so obviously the Bills had issues. ALL SCHEMES NEED SPECIAL PLAYERS Here's the most important thing with evaluating any scheme: How many of the players your scheme wants are coming out of college, and how many teams are you competing with to get those players. Whoever adopts a different scheme first has a big advantage in the NFL. Jumping on a current bandwagon is the worst thing you can do. You want to have your pick of guys that other teams don't have the scheme to use. If the T2 is falling from favor - but not because of a rule change or something that makes it specifically flawed - then you want to jump on it - you'll be competing with fewer teams come draft day to get your guys. The 3-4 is in vogue right now - great - let the rest of the AFC East compete with each other and the rest of the league for large dominant NT's and full-sized DE's. Having said all that, the McKelvin pick - and I love how he played - is pretty non-sensical. It's like they're still drafting for Greg Williams' 46 defense (which absolutely required dominant cover corners as they were constantly left alone in single man coverage). This is the core problem with the Bills brain trust. they employ a scheme that is designed to use lower tier CBs in a soft zone scheme whic allows you to spend on other areas. Yet the Bills do the opposite and use multiple premium picks on CBs with good press coverage skills but no zone skills, who they will play 10 yards off the ball. So not only do we waste premium picks on a position which does not require high level talent, teh guys we pick take years of re-training to learn how to play a zone. (see McKelvin wasted 1st year) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billnutinphoenix Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 That list is deceiving. Not only have Kiffin and Dungy had success with the Tampa 2, but Dungy met Lovie Smith in the Superbowl, where he was running that defense. Kansas City and Detroit, on the other hand, don't have the personnel to do well with any defense. And why give John Harbaugh credit? Rex Ryan has been running the same defense in Baltimore since Marvin Lewis left. Ron Rivera's defense only improved from 22 to 18 when he took over, not exactly a world-changing move. And Leslie Frazier inherited a defense with the Williams Wall. I'd attribute most of its improvement this year to Jared Allen (who did just as well in Herm's defense) than anything Frazier did. Oh, and the triple-A Bills defense was 14th in yards and points, missing its top pass rusher most of the season, missing arguably its best linebacker the whole season, and a slew of injuries in the secondary. Indy - see Darren Sproles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimp on da' net Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I would agree up to a point - Tampa 2 demphasizes corner play so there is some relief there. Sadly, the Bills continue to focus on DB's in the draft. Also does not require stud pass rushing LB's (although middle LB in Tampa -2 is more critical). D-Line play is critical in Tampa-2 scheme and this is where the Bills have been woefully short. D-line is supposed to be penetrating and disruptive. I personally believe the weakness of the Tampa -2 is the fact that it is not as effective against the run game. This is an absolute must in the conditions the Bills are likely to play in come October, November and December (not worth mentioning th e possibility of a game at the ralph in january - hasn't happened in a decade). It is the wrong defense for the Bills but as long as jauron is around it is not likely to change. TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU... If DJ could only think out of the box here, he could still use the gap penetration from the DT (must add help for stroud) but use bigger more athletic LB (ie. like the eagles) to read the guards for the run and inject the bump and run at the corners. This now free up your safeties to roam and become play makers. Now my dream would be quicker ends ( i'll give schobel another year to test the foot) a hybrid opposite him in the M. Johnson - Ga. Tech, E. Brown Fla. st.& Selvie mold. Bigger LB - Veteran w/ size + experience (like the patriot's have done in the past) Very active SS - Vet possibly; Donte at FS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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