Scouts Inc. Fantasy O-Line rankings

[dave mcbride]

1. This FO has been conducting drafts and free agency since '01. It's the same personnel FO put there by Donahoe and no one new has changed anything significant about it. Modrak, Guy, and Majeski run the show and many of those under them have been there with them and they were put there by Donahoe.

 

2. That's kind of moot since the Bills don't really have many players at all worth much long term consideration. Schobel is on his back nine easily and if he doesn't rebound in a big way from last season's dip in performance, then the team will have to think about releasing him or restructuring him downward after just over a season since they gave him that enormous deal. I don't think that the Bills have done well at all w/ cap management from the angle of getting the most from their precious cap dollars. I think you're basically saying the same thing although it's unclear. They've held the team under the cap, but so what, we haven't won anything or come close, so if "cap management" is the goal in that regard, I suppose we win. I just don't view it that way. Teams have spent less than us with better results.

 

3. The Bills haven't gone after good value players. You're partially correct. There are FAs out there that play solid ball but just don't get the recognition. The Bills always seem to get guys with known issues. Langston Walker, regardless of what some say, is simply not good. Dockery was overrated and a "big fish in a small pond" last year and the entire league understands that we overpaid him. You need guys that play well A. together, and B. well against the better opponents.

 

Schobel got far too much for one reason only, because the team overpaid Kelsay to more than Schobel was getting. That would have been fine if Schobel hadn't been in his back 9. Stupid otherwise and completely lacking any value. But once again, the team was caught with its pants down. Why, because of some unfortunate event? No, because they decided to drop trow.

 

There are many people here that rant and rave over how some of our players play against teams that we should dominate but then completely ignore how they play against teams that are a challenge for us. We haven't adequately addressed the lines at all. Fowler isn't good at C and after this year we have a hole there. Where's the foresight and planning on this? This is just one more deja vu at C. Jason Peters was a fortunate outcome, not a seriously planned replacement. And interestingly he's our best lineman on either side and it can even be argued that he's our best player overall although that is arguable. Either way, when you UFAs and 7th rounders become your stars, what does that say? We haven't gotten value from most if not all of our highest draft picks under the guys picking them now for nearly a decade.

 

What are the objective reasons you have for complaining about the FO.

 

The above are some, but the fact that we haven't been competitive due to having a lack of talent overall and generally speaking on this team says all that anyone could want to know. If they were doing a good job than even an average coach would be doing more than has been done. If the talent is there, then the coaching is clearly an issue. It's obviously both, but at this point does it even matter.

 

Let me swing this back your way; what are the objective reasons why you defend, if that's what you're doing, why you would defend otherwise, the FO?

 

There was a long-ish article in the Sporting News (I think) last year (sorry - can't find the link) that quoted a number of players and scouts to claim that barring serious injury, DEs hit their peak in their early 30s, not in their 20s. Basically, the argument was that it takes that long to develop a good repertoire of moves. It makes sense - Jason Taylor was a better player in 2006 than he was in 2001, and Bruce Smith's best year by far was in 1996 (his 12th year). Strahan was ridiculously good last year even though the sack total was down. The same can be said for lots of other guys over the years too. The point is that Schoebel, who I thought was very, very good last year (2nd highest # of tackles of his career; highest number of passes defensed; highest number of forced fumbles) is probably entering his prime. So I wouldn't predict his demise just yet. He turns 31 on September 1, and he's probably got three excellent years left in him. Check out this quote from a "rival" in the Sporting News last month. I wouldn't be surprised if it's Matt Light or even Belichick:

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=420003

 

The book on: Aaron Schobel

 

A rival sizes up the Bills' defensive end:

 

"Schobel has kind of grown on me the last three years. He has always been a high-motor guy who will play from whistle to whistle, but he has gotten better in every aspect of the game and is growing into a complete player.

 

"Obviously, his pass-rushing skills get most of the attention. He is a handful because he gets off the ball so quickly that you have to give the tackle help or at least chip him with a (running) back to slow him down.

 

"The best way to neutralize him or slow down his aggressiveness is run at him on sweeps and counters. He is good at shooting gaps, but if you get a bigger body on him you could have some success. However, this guy is a challenge no matter what you try to do. He's the one guy on that team you have to game-plan for on their defense."

[stuckincincy]

The book on: Aaron Schobel

 

A rival sizes up the Bills' defensive end:

 

"Schobel has kind of grown on me the last three years. He has always been a high-motor guy who will play from whistle to whistle, but he has gotten better in every aspect of the game and is growing into a complete player.

 

"Obviously, his pass-rushing skills get most of the attention. He is a handful because he gets off the ball so quickly that you have to give the tackle help or at least chip him with a (running) back to slow him down.

 

"The best way to neutralize him or slow down his aggressiveness is run at him on sweeps and counters. He is good at shooting gaps, but if you get a bigger body on him you could have some success. However, this guy is a challenge no matter what you try to do. He's the one guy on that team you have to game-plan for on their defense."

 

No surprise there. Pro players, pro sports organizations almost never utter negatives about the competition. The eye to the bottom line, the profits and the paycheck, dictates "One for all, All for one".

[Bill from NYC]

The Bills always seem to get guys with known issues. Langston Walker, regardless of what some say, is simply not good.

 

Not good? Why do you say that? I think that he is clearly "good." And before you complain about his contract, 25 million/5 years is not too bad for a guy who can be a starting RT. In order to avoid this kind of money (if only for a while), a team would have to draft a RT, such as Jeremy Trueblood. The Bills prefer to use to picks on Midgets, Injured Running Backs, Safeties, Corners, and McCorners.

After this draft, Jauron could barely contain his utter glee that McCorner "fell" to us. Frankly, a trade up would not have shocked me, but I digress...

 

What is it about Walker that you don't like? I think thay he moves well for his size, and he surely is strong. Perhaps we should define "not good," no? Do you think that Walker is Corey Loucheiy bad?

I am not seeing this at all.

[dave mcbride]

Not good? Why do you say that? I think that he is clearly "good." And before you complain about his contract, 25 million/5 years is not too bad for a guy who can be a starting RT. In order to avoid this kind of money (if only for a while), a team would have to draft a RT, such as Jeremy Trueblood. The Bills prefer to use to picks on Midgets, Injured Running Backs, Safeties, Corners, and McCorners.

After this draft, Jauron could barely contain his utter glee that McCorner "fell" to us. Frankly, a trade up would not have shocked me, but I digress...

 

What is it about Walker that you don't like? I think thay he moves well for his size, and he surely is strong. Perhaps we should define "not good," no? Do you think that Walker is Corey Loucheiy bad?

I am not seeing this at all.

Bill:

 

Judging from the stats, the Bills were far more successful running behind Walker than any other lineman. They finished 25th overall according to football outsiders, but 6th overall when running behind right tackle:

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php

[Bill from NYC]

Bill:

 

Judging from the stats, the Bills were far more successful running behind Walker than any other lineman. They finished 25th overall according to football outsiders, but 6th overall when running behind right tackle:

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php

 

I am agreeing with you.

 

That said, those stats are somewhat empty imo. Do they take into account help from fullbacks, TEs, pulling OGs, etc?

I watched Walker as much as I could and saw him matching up well against defenders. I even saw him move upfield with the play a few times. Frankly, I think that if he would have been a UFA this season, he would have signed for more than we got him for.

 

Jmo.

[dave mcbride]

I am agreeing with you.

 

That said, those stats are somewhat empty imo. Do they take into account help from fullbacks, TEs, pulling OGs, etc?

I watched Walker as much as I could and saw him matching up well against defenders. I even saw him move upfield with the play a few times. Frankly, I think that if he would have been a UFA this season, he would have signed for more than we got him for.

 

Jmo.

They're somewhat empty, but not completely empty. He *is* a good run blocker, and he was a good run blocker for the Raiders. However, he simply isn't a great pass blocker. Edwards' ability to get rid of it quickly ameliorates that weakness a bit, however. One final thing -- he stayed healthy the whole season last year, which is no small thing.

[Bill from NYC]

They're somewhat empty, but not completely empty. He *is* a good run blocker, and he was a good run blocker for the Raiders. However, he simply isn't a great pass blocker. Edwards' ability to get rid of it quickly ameliorates that weakness a bit, however. One final thing -- he stayed healthy the whole season last year, which is no small thing.

 

Pass protection is the hard part. That can improve. Still, I saw him stand up many opponents last year.

[obie_wan]

Pass protection is the hard part. That can improve. Still, I saw him stand up many opponents last year.

 

the only reason he is even functional in pass protection is when he has a TE permanently assigned to help out.

 

When they had to shift the TE to cover for Chambers, he became a turnstyle.

 

For being a beast as a run blocker, it sure is surprising the Bills ranked last in short yardage conversions.

 

For his size, Walker does not consistently drive people off the ball as he should. He does not get to the 2nd level to seal LBs either.

 

He is functional, nothing more and would probably be better suited at RG if the Bills drafted real talent to play RT.

[Adam]

the only reason he is even functional in pass protection is when he has a TE permanently assigned to help out.

 

When they had to shift the TE to cover for Chambers, he became a turnstyle.

 

For being a beast as a run blocker, it sure is surprising the Bills ranked last in short yardage conversions.

 

For his size, Walker does not consistently drive people off the ball as he should. He does not get to the 2nd level to seal LBs either.

 

He is functional, nothing more and would probably be better suited at RG if the Bills drafted real talent to play RT.

Size doesn't blow anyone off the ball at this level, if it did, then Walker would be a quality player. Explosiveness off the snap does it, and he has very little of that....despite what many fans convince themselves because they want the team to be better than it really is

[ax4782]

Pass protection is the hard part. That can improve. Still, I saw him stand up many opponents last year.

 

Very true, Bill. He was one of our better lineman last year. People who complain about him only remember that there were some complaints about his performance his last year in Oakland and just assume that he was terrible again last year. While I acknowledge that we didn't throw as often as we should, and thus stats may have been inflated, Langston had either the least or second least number of sacks given up last season, IIRC. That being said, of course he could improve, but I don't think that any rookie RT was going to come in and play any better. I'm glad we've got him.

[VOR]

the only reason he is even functional in pass protection is when he has a TE permanently assigned to help out.

 

When they had to shift the TE to cover for Chambers, he became a turnstyle.

LOL! A "turnstile?" Do you make this stuff up? After Peters got hurt and Chambers got help from the TE, Walker surrendered just 2 QB hurries to LDE's in his last 2 games: one to Michael Strahan (a scrub, I know) and one to Juqua Thomas/Parker.

[dave mcbride]

LOL! A "turnstile?" Do you make this stuff up? After Peters got hurt and Chambers got help from the TE, Walker surrendered just 2 QB hurries to LDE's in his last 2 games: one to Michael Strahan (a scrub, I know) and one to Juqua Thomas/Parker.

Once a narrative has been set, it's been pretty much set forever.

[krazykat]

Somebody save this post, 'cause I think krazykat is going to look pretty silly in six months or so.

I think the odds of me not being able to find you in six months to comment on this is more likely. You guys have been saying this since Donahoe took over the team.

[krazykat]

Not good? Why do you say that? I think that he is clearly "good." And before you complain about his contract, 25 million/5 years is not too bad for a guy who can be a starting RT. In order to avoid this kind of money (if only for a while), a team would have to draft a RT, such as Jeremy Trueblood. The Bills prefer to use to picks on Midgets, Injured Running Backs, Safeties, Corners, and McCorners.

After this draft, Jauron could barely contain his utter glee that McCorner "fell" to us. Frankly, a trade up would not have shocked me, but I digress...

 

What is it about Walker that you don't like? I think thay he moves well for his size, and he surely is strong. Perhaps we should define "not good," no? Do you think that Walker is Corey Loucheiy bad?

I am not seeing this at all.

Guess we're just watching different games.

 

It will become more apparent this year when Edwards finally has to do some pocket work after the coaches "kid gloves" come off after going out of their way to see to it that he face little pressure last year.

 

Walker plays top-heavy BIG-time and I'm pretty sure that every site with assessments of his play will say something to that affect. He has little speed and once players get around him he's absolutely useless and the good ones get around him routinely unless he has help.

 

Just watch footage of him. Don't know what else to tell you.

[krazykat]

Bill:

 

Judging from the stats, the Bills were far more successful running behind Walker than any other lineman. They finished 25th overall according to football outsiders, but 6th overall when running behind right tackle:

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php

They also had a TE on his side almost every play too.

[krazykat]

I am agreeing with you.

 

That said, those stats are somewhat empty imo. Do they take into account help from fullbacks, TEs, pulling OGs, etc?

I watched Walker as much as I could and saw him matching up well against defenders. I even saw him move upfield with the play a few times. Frankly, I think that if he would have been a UFA this season, he would have signed for more than we got him for.

 

Jmo.

Thank you!

 

He's an OK run blocker but not more, but he sucks royally in pass blocking against average or better competition.

[krazykat]

He *is* a good run blocker, and he was a good run blocker for the Raiders. However, he simply isn't a great pass blocker. Edwards' ability to get rid of it quickly ameliorates that weakness a bit, however. One final thing -- he stayed healthy the whole season last year, which is no small thing.

If he was such a good run blocker, then why did Fargas average almost his lowest production behind Walker on the right side? And why did the Raiders have the 29th ranked rushing offense too? Why the least rushing TDs with only 5?

 

Also, I wouldn't say that Edwards had an ability to get rid of the ball quickly, I'd say that the majority of plays were designed that way. In other words, his not doing it would have meant that he wasn't doing what the play prescribed.

 

We're gonna see a lot more sacks this year as they expect him to sit in the pocket a lot more. That will leave many here scratching their noggins and searching for more appropriate excuses.

[VOR]

If he was such a good run blocker, then why did Fargas average almost his lowest production behind Walker on the right side? And why did the Raiders have the 29th ranked rushing offense too? Why the least rushing TDs with only 5?

Who cares what he did with the Raiders? They had the worst offense in NFL history, thanks mostly to an OC who was running a bed and breakfast prior to the season and who along with the head coach, hadn't been in the NFL for 11 years.

Also, I wouldn't say that Edwards had an ability to get rid of the ball quickly, I'd say that the majority of plays were designed that way. In other words, his not doing it would have meant that he wasn't doing what the play prescribed.

He was a rookie. I don't understand why you can't see this point.

We're gonna see a lot more sacks this year as they expect him to sit in the pocket a lot more. That will leave many here scratching their noggins and searching for more appropriate excuses.

Time will tell. Many of your predictions have been duly noted.

[krazykat]

Who cares what he did with the Raiders? They had the worst offense in NFL history, thanks mostly to an OC who was running a bed and breakfast prior to the season and who along with the head coach, hadn't been in the NFL for 11 years.

 

I think it's relevant in a discussion about Walker. Someone can't just lay out the assertion that he was a solid run blocker amidst evidence to the contrary and then follow it up with someone saying "AHHH, that's irrelevant" in spite of the fact that I realize that's how business is conducted here.

 

And while you chastise their coaching, you ignore ours. Let me ask you, what was Schonert doing in 2002?

 

How about 2004?

 

Any guesses?

 

Time will tell. Many of your predictions have been duly noted.

 

Thanks. Unfortunately I haven't taken the time to note yours because they're (everyone's) are simply too voluminous. But we can go dig them up if need be.

[ax4782]

LOL! A "turnstile?" Do you make this stuff up? After Peters got hurt and Chambers got help from the TE, Walker surrendered just 2 QB hurries to LDE's in his last 2 games: one to Michael Strahan (a scrub, I know) and one to Juqua Thomas/Parker.

 

I think that says it, but since that is an actual fact, most likely people who think the OL was terrible last season will find a way to dismiss it. The fact is that Walker was very good in both rushing and pass blocking and his numbers show it over the course of last season. He actually had better blocking stats in both aspects of the game when the TE was NOT playing on his side of the ball. And furthermore, people act like other teams never have TEs help out in the blocking scheme. You think that never happens on any other team? Please. That's the TE's job on 70% of the plays where they are out there. They assist in the blocking scheme. Just because the Bills used a TE to have a stronger rush on the right side isn't indicative of the fact that Walker needed help. It's indicative of the fact that they were running to the strong side of a called formation. If a full back blocks to the right to help block a linebacker out of the four hole between the RG and the RT, I guess that's because Walker sucks as he can't block both a lineman and an LB at the same time? Give me a break. VOR, you got it dead on right. However, people will find a way to twist the facts into something showing that regardless of how his statistics look, he really secretly sucks and statistics are only true when they want to use them to prove they are right.