Obama: "Typical White Person"

[/dev/null]

He is presently paying hell, by people like you, for the phrase. So what is your point, that there is no double standard?

People like me?

Where have I given him hell?

 

Oh wait, nm. I'm not a registered Democrat. Therefore me=wrong. Right?

[Kelly the Dog]

People like me?

Where have I given him hell?

 

Oh wait, nm. I'm not a registered Democrat. Therefore me=wrong. Right?

Who care's if Hillary's passport was leaked. She's just some old white b*tch. And McCain? Hell, He's a Repukelican

 

But Obama's? Oh hell no, a Black Man's rights were violtated! This is proof that "The Man" is still hard at work and Jim Crow lives.

 

We need Change!

 

Just like when the Bills went 8-8 in 2000. They needed Change! So they hired Greggg Williams wallbash.gif

And when Greggg Williams Change didn't work, they hired Meathead wallbash.gif

And when Meathead's change didn't work, they hired Jauron wallbash.gif

 

We need Change! Change! is good

 

Change we can believe in! Just like the Tooth Fairy

This is the single greatest speech ever given by anyone in the history of the universe. Or at least that's what I caught on the 24 hour news channels.

 

I think Barack Obama has single handedly ended racism with this speech.

This speech was so great that it may even go so far as to convince Iraqi's to put their differences aside and work out a peaceful compromise without the help of the US.

Not only that, but the very acoustics of his voice may in fact be the cure for AIDS.

 

In fact the only flaw I can find with this speech, is that given the speed of light, broadcasts of Obama's speech will not reach distant solar systems for several years. That's a long wait to be able to form a perfect union with the Klingons, Vulcans, Ferengi, Mimbari, Vorlons, Narn, Gou'ald, or Cylons that is free of any intergalactic racial strife

Hmm, maybe my parents weren't typical white people of their generation. We couldn't afford to have Negros do our trivial peon tasks. dry.gif So my Mom did alot of the work herself, plus chores assigned to the kids

[Sirius99]

I'm understanding perfectly, I'm just not agreeing with it. I'm saying he has made one mistake of political correctness that wouldn't be a mistake anywhere else, so he's made no non-political correctness mistakes. And everything he has done in this campaign and on the national stage suggests he's not going to make a lot of gaffes. But we're getting nowhere on this one, and will just have to agree to disagree.

 

The McCain thing is a completely different ballgame. It's emblematic and a microcosm of the entire problem with the war, not understanding the cultures of people we're directly involved with and forcing our culture on. He made the same mistake three days in a row. That's not a gaffe, that's not knowing or listening, and he was in the friggin middle east when he did it. That's a much, much bigger problem than "typical white person."

 

Well, you say you understand, but your responses don't support that. Also, you didn't answer how you expect Obama to be sensitive to other cultures when he clearly didn't understand his own based on his comment. If you think that's an isolated incident, that's your prerogative, but you don't seem to be applying the same standard to McCain. I know you haven't served in the military, so let me tell you unequivocally that McCain gets daily briefings, so his issue is most certainly not one of understanding. That begs the question, why would he make that mistake? It is likely it was simply a brain fart (multiple times apparently), but given he is already battling age issues, any misstep like this will only further the questions surrounding his age and capabilities.

 

However, using JM's comment as "emblematic of the problem with the war" is extreme hyperbole. It is very true that the complete misunderstanding of Iraq's culture by the US administration, the US military, and the Iraqi Provisional Authority is why the post-war reconstruction efforts have had so many serious issues and resulted in the levels of insurgency experienced to date. Many of those problems have been addressed and corrected to at least a significant degree. One of the unintended consequences of multiple tours of duty in Iraq by the US military is that now troops have a much better understanding of the environment and people of Iraq. That, in addition to a large dose of cultural awareness training, has significantly changed the actions on the ground and by advisors and administrators. What is most definitely true today is that we are not "forcing our culture" on anyone in Iraq.

[Sirius99]

Depends on your definition of problematic.

I think that kind of problem would be refreshing as well as beneficial.

 

Depends on your definition of beneficial. I guess if you think continuing to piss off the international community is beneficial, then I would agree.

[Kelly the Dog]

Well, you say you understand, but your responses don't support that. Also, you didn't answer how you expect Obama to be sensitive to other cultures when he clearly didn't understand his own based on his comment. If you think that's an isolated incident, that's your prerogative, but you don't seem to be applying the same standard to McCain. I know you haven't served in the military, so let me tell you unequivocally that McCain gets daily briefings, so his issue is most certainly not one of understanding. That begs the question, why would he make that mistake? It is likely it was simply a brain fart (multiple times apparently), but given he is already battling age issues, any misstep like this will only further the questions surrounding his age and capabilities.

 

However, using JM's comment as "emblematic of the problem with the war" is extreme hyperbole. It is very true that the complete misunderstanding of Iraq's culture by the US administration, the US military, and the Iraqi Provisional Authority is why the post-war reconstruction efforts have had so many serious issues and resulted in the levels of insurgency experienced to date. Many of those problems have been addressed and corrected to at least a significant degree. One of the unintended consequences of multiple tours of duty in Iraq by the US military is that now troops have a much better understanding of the environment and people of Iraq. That, in addition to a large dose of cultural awareness training, has significantly changed the actions on the ground and by advisors and administrators. What is most definitely true today is that we are not "forcing our culture" on anyone in Iraq.

Of course we are. We were and are forcing Democracy on Iraq, and if we don't like the leaders, we go find different ones. We're teaching them how we do everything and building Pizza Huts there. You are right about now understanding their culture a lot more, though. We're paying both sides cash every day to not kill us or each other.

 

McCain said Iran was taking Al Qaeda in, training them, and then sending them back into Iran on the Hugh Hewitt conservative talk show. Then he said it to reporters in Jordan. (Some reports are he said it several times to reporters.) Then they questioned him about it. He said it again. And said it was common knowledge. Lieberman told him no. Then he said it wasn't true. Then the next day a statement from his campaign said it again. What the hell do you call that? Four senior moments on the exact same thing?

 

As for Obama, we just don't agree on the fundamental origin of the gaffe and the chances for him doing it again and what the possible consequences are. And we're both getting into "silly season".

[Simon]

Depends on your definition of beneficial. I guess if you think continuing to piss off the international community is beneficial, then I would agree.

I would say that any ruffled feathers that result from honest and forthright speech are more beneficial than any ruffled feathers that result from us pointlessly chucking cruise missiles into densely populated foreign cities.

But that's just me. Maybe you prefer the wanton slaughter of innocent civilians to a good argument, but I think the argument might be refreshing and beneficial.

[Sirius99]

Of course we are. We were and are forcing Democracy on Iraq, and if we don't like the leaders, we go find different ones. We're teaching them how we do everything and building Pizza Huts there. You are right about now understanding their culture a lot more, though. We're paying both sides cash every day to not kill us or each other.

 

No, democracy isn't culture. If we were forcibly installing our exact government including repubs and dems, you may have a point, but we are not. They are the ones developing the details. The slowness of that progress has been a main democratic criticism of the effort, especially since the troop surge. And while there certainly are leaders that the US would prefer, we aren't hand-picking them. If we were, this process would have been complete 4 years ago. Regrading the payment, I don't know if you were being tongue-in-cheek, but you are correct. The stories I've heard from friends coming back from Iraqi tours are amazing. Virtually everything revolves around what we would consider bribery. They don't.

 

McCain said Iran was taking Al Qaeda in, training them, and then sending them back into Iran on the Hugh Hewitt conservative talk show. Then he said it to reporters in Jordan. (Some reports are he said it several times to reporters.) Then they questioned him about it. He said it again. And said it was common knowledge. Lieberman told him no. Then he said it wasn't true. Then the next day a statement from his campaign said it again. What the hell do you call that? Four senior moments on the exact same thing?

Sadly, yes.

 

As for Obama, we just don't agree on the fundamental origin of the gaffe and the chances for him doing it again and what the possible consequences are. And we're both getting into "silly season".

 

I hadn't realized there was a beginning or and end to silly season. Did you mean uber-silly season per chance? I'd really like to vote for Obama if he's the Dem, but don't know if I can get past his stance on the troop withdrawl. He does seem to be softening it somewhat recently.

 

Cheers,

Berg

[Sirius99]

I would say that any ruffled feathers that result from honest and forthright speech are more beneficial than any ruffled feathers that result from us pointlessly chucking cruise missiles into densely populated foreign cities.

But that's just me. Maybe you prefer the wanton slaughter of innocent civilians to a good argument, but I think the argument might be refreshing and beneficial.

Actually, I prefer a culturally-sensitive dialog resulting in a mutually beneficial compromise. But I do see how you love to argue, facts nonwithstanding.

[Kelly the Dog]

No, democracy isn't culture. If we were forcibly installing our exact government including repubs and dems, you may have a point, but we are not. They are the ones developing the details. The slowness of that progress has been a main democratic criticism of the effort, especially since the troop surge. And while there certainly are leaders that the US would prefer, we aren't hand-picking them. If we were, this process would have been complete 4 years ago. Regrading the payment, I don't know if you were being tongue-in-cheek, but you are correct. The stories I've heard from friends coming back from Iraqi tours are amazing. Virtually everything revolves around what we would consider bribery. They don't.

Sadly, yes.

I hadn't realized there was a beginning or and end to silly season. Did you mean uber-silly season per chance? I'd really like to vote for Obama if he's the Dem, but don't know if I can get past his stance on the troop withdrawl. He does seem to be softening it somewhat recently.

 

Cheers,

Berg

I didn't even know I was arguing with you. If I did, I would have been a lot more combative. But now that I know it's you, I have a bigger problem. A guy I thought was so smart and informed is really getting old and making senior mistakes.

 

Anyway, when I was talking culture I was talking everything, way of life, politics, way we do things, etc., and in general terms not making them do everything we do. You're right, we're not forcing them into certain things but overall, from before the war until now, I strongly think we forced our culture on them, and to me it's inarguable. And it's not all bad. Some of it, like the military training is probably great. If democracy holds, which I doubt, that would be fabulous (although almost by definition I think it should be started by the will of the people and not another people's army but we won't go there). Pizza Hut, I have always hated and they could do much better.

 

I have always argued part of America's problem has been just ignoring other people's cultures when we go there. I think it was a lot more than a post war series of missteps. Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld et al got better briefings than McCain and they sure didn't understand. You may be right about McCain, but if you are, it's way scarier.

 

I wasn't tongue-in-cheek about the payoffs, the reports I have seen from both good and bad sources are insane. It's likely a huge reason for a lot of the success of the surge, if you can call it that, but that's like saying a fixed boxing match win was a success.

 

I think both Democratic candidates, although I think Hillary has virtually no chance to gain the nomination barring catastrophe, will soften their stance once elected. They will consult with the generals and whomever they put in cabinet positions and other world leaders and re-evaluate, changing accordingly. It is the only thing to do and the same thing that McCain would do. I see no scenario that Obama gets elected, the majority of the military says we cannot get out as quick as you want, and he says we are anyway.

[GG]

Actually, I prefer a culturally-sensitive dialog resulting in a mutually beneficial compromise. But I do see how you love to argue, facts nonwithstanding.

 

Culturally-sensitive foreign leaders, like Vincente Fox, who said that Mexicans are good for the US because they do work that blacks aren't willing to do?

[blzrul]

So what?

 

She's a typical white person...

 

Who cares?

 

Why can't white person's just man up to their faults?

No kidding. It is what it is and it's probably high time we really talk about it in this country. We all carry baggage about a lot of things and in many cases, race is one of those things whether we want to admit it or not.

 

If there was a black person on this board, he or she would no doubt share with us his or her experience in learning about white people. and we might find it wasn't so different from our own learning experience. My parents simply followed the "American dream" and took us out of the city in the 'burbs when we were quite young. We never had black kids in our school until my senior year in high school. When a black family tried to buy a house in our tract, the neighbors lobbied the builder to block it - the exceptions were a handful of people who circulated a petition to allow them to buy, including my mother, our next door neighbor, and Louise Slaughter (then a housewife).

 

Intellectually I knew that black people were just people like me, but until I went to university and actually interacted with them on a daily basis I had no first-hand experience. And for many of them, they had never been up close and personal with white people either. So we all learned together. I remember the time my friend Linda told me I was making her blush when I paid her a compliment - she was black as coal and if she was blushing I couldn't see it. I didn't know if she was making a joke or what ... I cracked up and so did she, but it could just as well have gone the other way. Would it have been as funny if Linda was white? Of course not. And Linda would not have been Linda without her blackness. And it WAS funny, whether she meant it to be or not. The laughter was not AT her but at what she said. And when I pointed it out to her, she laughed even harder. Had a talking head or other nitwit been present though something so innocuous could have been blown up all out of proportion.

 

My nana was born and lived in Brooklyn her whole life and she was just as isolated. She would cross the street if a black man was coming toward her...she never said anything, I think she did it unconsciously. I never heard her say a word against blacks, but that action by today's standards makes her racist. In those days it was common. So, she was a typical white person of her generation (she's 99 now).

 

And, that same black man might have been relieved that the white lady DID cross the street because in those days, in many places in the US, if a black man got too close to a white lady, there could be trouble.

 

The fact that this raises so many emotions and discussions proves that the subject is not "a done deal" but something that should be discussed.

[Sirius99]

I didn't even know I was arguing with you. If I did, I would have been a lot more combative. But now that I know it's you, I have a bigger problem. A guy I thought was so smart and informed is really getting old and making senior mistakes.

 

Anyway, when I was talking culture I was talking everything, way of life, politics, way we do things, etc., and in general terms not making them do everything we do. You're right, we're not forcing them into certain things but overall, from before the war until now, I strongly think we forced our culture on them, and to me it's inarguable. And it's not all bad. Some of it, like the military training is probably great. If democracy holds, which I doubt, that would be fabulous (although almost by definition I think it should be started by the will of the people and not another people's army but we won't go there). Pizza Hut, I have always hated and they could do much better.

 

I have always argued part of America's problem has been just ignoring other people's cultures when we go there. I think it was a lot more than a post war series of missteps. Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld et al got better briefings than McCain and they sure didn't understand. You may be right about McCain, but if you are, it's way scarier.

 

I wasn't tongue-in-cheek about the payoffs, the reports I have seen from both good and bad sources are insane. It's likely a huge reason for a lot of the success of the surge, if you can call it that, but that's like saying a fixed boxing match win was a success.

 

I think both Democratic candidates, although I think Hillary has virtually no chance to gain the nomination barring catastrophe, will soften their stance once elected. They will consult with the generals and whomever they put in cabinet positions and other world leaders and re-evaluate, changing accordingly. It is the only thing to do and the same thing that McCain would do. I see no scenario that Obama gets elected, the majority of the military says we cannot get out as quick as you want, and he says we are anyway.

 

Well I can't log in to my Berg account since the "crash", and I haven't bothered trying to figure it out. But I thought I better 'fess up in case you were holding back And by the way, nowadays it usually takes me at least two attempts to get right name when I'm addressing one of my three daughters, so I guess I'll have to just get used to more and more senior moments. Rest assured, though, I don't have any while I'm working on your national security assets.

 

There's too much to type here, but it is certainly true that by the mere fact that we are there, some parts of our culture come with us. I don't think that is forcing culture on them, but I suppose the only ones who can really answer that are the Iraqis, and I suspect you'd get a variety of resposes there too, although it would be interesting to see that data.

 

The problem the US has had IMO has been a complete lack of cultural awareness at the national and strategic policy making level. It's not that they haven't tried, but their efforts have been mostly disatrous. One small example - I read that shortly after Baghdad fell, guards at prisons in Iraq were instructed to put prisoners in sexually humiliating situations because the dopes in charge thought they would be taking advantage of the Muslim attitudes toward sex and it would facilitate intelligence-gathering. Of course it failed miserably, but it is a case of trying to use cultural differences as an advantage but completely missing the mark.

 

So why is there so little cultural understanding? Mostly because the US govt does not employ anthropologists, who are the ones who really understand culture. The vast majority of anthropologists view working for the govt as selling out, and therefore have rejected any attempts by the govt to solicit their input. A sad statement, but unfortunately true. However, it is an issue that is now recognized, so in addition to the experience some are getting by actually being there an interacting with other cultures, there is now an emphasis on other types of cultural training. While that is no substitute for experience, it is at least a start.

 

Finally, there has been much criticism of Rumsfeld for a lack of post-war planning, and some of it is warranted. However, in the run up to 2003, there was NO agency with official responsibility for planning activities related to reconstruction and stabalization. It should have been State, but the Office for Reconstruction and Stabalization within State did not stand up until just prior to the invasion in March 2003. By then, it was way too late. Who's fault is that? Ultimately, the President, and it resulted in completely inaccurate assumptions of the post-conflict enviroment treated as facts. The main assumption was that all the US had to do was topple Sadaam and the rest of the government and military would remain in place, sans the Republican Guard and a few high-level Ba'athists. Ooops!

 

It is tragic to say the least that these lessons were learned in this manner and with this amount of loss of life, but there have been positive outcomes from the perspective of cultural awareness and counter-insurgency operations. Which is why the talk of war with Iran and NK ring hollow to me. Too many people have been burned by this even if they would never admit it in public.

 

You are probably right that reality will trump rhetoric no matter who wins POTUS, but boy wouldn't it be nice to cut through all that prior to Nov?

[Sirius99]

Culturally-sensitive foreign leaders, like Vincente Fox, who said that Mexicans are good for the US because they do work that blacks aren't willing to do?

 

Well I'm not a big fan of "I know you are but what am I" diplomacy.

[Simon]

Actually, I prefer a culturally-sensitive dialog resulting in a mutually beneficial compromise. But I do see how you love to argue, facts nonwithstanding.

The hell w/ a straight line.

Sometimes the quickest way from PointA to PointB is a wee bit 'o' cussin and spittin.

And while I don't think there's much chance at all of me voting for Barak, I do think his simple, off-handed comment has probably created more dialogue than friction. I think that kind of innocent honesty smacks of the realism that is bound to ultimately be more constructive than destructive.

Jerk.

[Kelly the Dog]

Well I can't log in to my Berg account since the "crash", and I haven't bothered trying to figure it out. But I thought I better 'fess up in case you were holding back

Thanks. Good response. And maybe I am not articulating myself and POV well. When I talk about culture differences we don't understand, in addition to the military ones you speak of, I am really talking about America and Americans as a whole, and not necessarily our government, and not necessarily just in the Middle East or with our enemies. I think its endemic to our culture and kind of an Alexis De Tocqueville-sized trait of our citizens. Because of our successes we just have this arrogance and superiority complex than our way is the right way if not the only way, and if everyone else just stopped for a second and realized it, they would see it, too. When regular American Joes visit other countries they don't bother to understand anything about it and just "act American". We think we're the best in everything. Sure it's a sweeping generalization but I believe it to be true.

 

And believe me, I think we earned this arrogance, this isn't America hating, but think we should keep it to ourselves and our borders. We should be Thurman Thomas just tossing the ball to the referee and not Randy Moss holding his arms up to the Gods. We need to be more humble and understanding that there are a lot of peoples and cultures and countries that just don't agree with us and our way. A lot of it may be from jealousy because they're not lucky enough to have all the opportunity we do. But it doesn't matter where it comes from. And I think our military and government is very indicative of that pervasive attitude. That's why I made the McCain "emblematic and microcosm" comment.

[Sirius99]

Jerk.

 

Dipsh-t.

 

Hey, you're right, I feel very constructive now!

[Sirius99]

Thanks. Good response. And maybe I am not articulating myself and POV well. When I talk about culture differences we don't understand, in addition to the military ones you speak of, I am really talking about America and Americans as a whole, and not necessarily our government, and not necessarily just in the Middle East or with our enemies. I think its endemic to our culture and kind of an Alexis De Tocqueville-sized trait of our citizens. Because of our successes we just have this arrogance and superiority complex than our way is the right way if not the only way, and if everyone else just stopped for a second and realized it, they would see it, too. When regular American Joes visit other countries they don't bother to understand anything about it and just "act American". We think we're the best in everything. Sure it's a sweeping generalization but I believe it to be true.

 

Agreed, but I don't believe the average American citizen will ever develop that sort of understanding.

 

And believe me, I think we earned this arrogance, this isn't America hating, but think we should keep it to ourselves and our borders. We should be Thurman Thomas just tossing the ball to the referee and not Randy Moss holding his arms up to the Gods. We need to be more humble and understanding that there are a lot of peoples and cultures and countries that just don't agree with us and our way. A lot of it may be from jealousy because they're not lucky enough to have all the opportunity we do. But it doesn't matter where it comes from. And I think our military and government is very indicative of that pervasive attitude. That's why I made the McCain "emblematic and microcosm" comment.

 

I sort of agree, but what international resposibilities do we have due to our diplomatic, economic, and military strength? Certainly a dose of humility would be good especially after this administration's FU attitude, but I believe we have a responsibility to address international issues such as oppression. The question is how to do that without being perceived as imperialists.

[GG]

Well I'm not a big fan of "I know you are but what am I" diplomacy.

 

Not my point at all. I don't know that I would draw a straight line from Obama being politically incorrect with the grandmother comment to him being culturally insensitive to foreigners. If anything, he's the only candidate who's spent a significant amount of time abroad living with ordinary people in their country. So, he probably would be more attuned to the pitfalls of the ugly American stereotype that you speak of.

 

This is why his speech was so important. Because he framed the argument from both sides, and is uniquely positioned to speak from both sides, hopefully people will start looking at racial relations in their true shade of gray, instead of black & white absolutisms.

 

It surely smacks me hypocritical that he was among the more high profile people calling for Imus's ouster and then made a comment that made white people cringe. But he was telling things like they are about his grandmother, and probably next time, he, nor others in his position would be as cavalier to call out someone for a wayward offhand remark.

[Sirius99]

Not my point at all. I don't know that I would draw a straight line from Obama being politically incorrect with the grandmother comment to him being culturally insensitive to foreigners. If anything, he's the only candidate who's spent a significant amount of time abroad living with ordinary people in their country. So, he probably would be more attuned to the pitfalls of the ugly American stereotype that you speak of.

 

This is why his speech was so important. Because he framed the argument from both sides, and is uniquely positioned to speak from both sides, hopefully people will start looking at racial relations in their true shade of gray, instead of black & white absolutisms.

 

It surely smacks me hypocritical that he was among the more high profile people calling for Imus's ouster and then made a comment that made white people cringe. But he was telling things like they are about his grandmother, and probably next time, he, nor others in his position would be as cavalier to call out someone for a wayward offhand remark.

 

Maybe, but he could have told things like they are without phrasing it the way he did. To me, if he doesn't understand his own culture of political correctness, then that brings into qustion his ability to understand other cultures re: what to say and what not to say. Straight line? Maybe not, and maybe truly a mole hill. But with his strength in oratory, an unexpected mistake IMO.

[SilverNRed]

All this hoopla just shows that Obama was right to face the race issue head on

And by "head on" you mean he waited 20 years before being forced to face the issue when running for president.

 

Way to go, Barack!