Do Dockerey and Walker offset Clements and Fletcher?

[MrLocke]

I say no. I got the sense that Marv's top 2 priorities this offseason were fixing the o-line and the run defense. The o-line could be fixed, but I am not sold that Steve Fairchild will structure the system to the new personnel. In other words for the additions of Dockerey and Walker to mean anything to the defense the Bills will have to play a ball control offense and I am not sure a deciple of Mike Martz will be willing to do this.

 

Now we go to the run defense. Clements helped the run defense in two ways. The first was that he was a good tackler himself. Many cornerbacks do not like playing the run, but Clements was very capable of doing so. Also Clements did not need much safety help in that he could go one on one with the other teams receiver allowing one of the safeties to play the run. I think the loss of Fletcher is pretty well self explanatory in how his loss hurts the run defense. He played on some defenses in Buffalo that ranked very high against the run. The only way the loss of Fletcher won't hurt is if Marv is right in that the Bills need linebackers that attack and not just pursue.

 

Like someone was saying in another thread. You take a bad defense and take away two of its best players where does that leave it? I know it is very early in the offseason and it is possible Youboty could fill the gap left ny Clements, but it will take him a while if it ever happens to be in the same caliber as Nate. Unless the Bills add another big name in free agency to the defense the additions of Walker and Dockerey will be for nought.

[eSJayDee]

I just got an email from a 9er fan who was asking about Clements.

 

As I told him, I'm "optimistic" that the Bills made the right move essentially signing 2 OL for the price of 1 CB.

 

We had a BAD offense that even at the end of the season was at best mediocre. In the opinion of most, poor line play was primarily the cause. Unless you have a GREAT defense, you're not going far w/ an offense like that. To me, it seems easier to make a putrid O mediocre than a mediocre D awesome.

 

You're correct in that losing Clements likely will have an adverse effect on our ability to stop the run. Conversely, having a much improved O, will indirectly help stop the run.

 

W/ Clements you had a largely known quantity. Although the Clements of 2005 is NOT worth that sort of $, but how he played the latter part of last yr was. 2 new, young OL from different teams (one of which sucked) is much more of a gamble. You just don't know what you've got.

 

As for losing Fletcher, I can only assume that the thought at OBD is that he doesn't fit our Dee scheme and that they're looking to improve at MLB. He certainly IMO was at least serviceable, but is it worth that sort of $ for someone who really isn't what you want?

[nucci]

I say no. I got the sense that Marv's top 2 priorities this offseason were fixing the o-line and the run defense. The o-line could be fixed, but I am not sold that Steve Fairchild will structure the system to the new personnel. In other words for the additions of Dockerey and Walker to mean anything to the defense the Bills will have to play a ball control offense and I am not sure a deciple of Mike Martz will be willing to do this.

 

Now we go to the run defense. Clements helped the run defense in two ways. The first was that he was a good tackler himself. Many cornerbacks do not like playing the run, but Clements was very capable of doing so. Also Clements did not need much safety help in that he could go one on one with the other teams receiver allowing one of the safeties to play the run. I think the loss of Fletcher is pretty well self explanatory in how his loss hurts the run defense. He played on some defenses in Buffalo that ranked very high against the run. The only way the loss of Fletcher won't hurt is if Marv is right in that the Bills need linebackers that attack and not just pursue.

 

Like someone was saying in another thread. You take a bad defense and take away two of its best players where does that leave it? I know it is very early in the offseason and it is possible Youboty could fill the gap left ny Clements, but it will take him a while if it ever happens to be in the same caliber as Nate. Unless the Bills add another big name in free agency to the defense the additions of Walker and Dockerey will be for nought.

Ball control offense is over-rated. I want an offense that scores points. Easier to play D when you have a lead.

[Bill from NYC]

Ball control offense is over-rated. I want an offense that scores points. Easier to play D when you have a lead.

 

We already have a quick strike offense with JP and Evans, and playing D was anything but easy.

If you can't control the line of scrimage you will lose more often than not, especially in the outdoor elements, where passing is not always an option.

 

There is not a better thing that the Bills could have done than dedicating resources to improving the OL.

[R. Rich]

There is not a better thing that the Bills could have done than dedicating resources to improving the OL.

 

 

So, they found a way to shut you up? Say it ain't so, William.

[nucci]

We already have a quick strike offense with JP and Evans, and playing D was anything but easy.

If you can't control the line of scrimage you will lose more often than not, especially in the outdoor elements, where passing is not always an option.

 

There is not a better thing that the Bills could have done than dedicating resources to improving the OL.

Not sure if you are agreeing with me but I think this team will be very successful running this year.

[OCinBuffalo]

Ball control offense is over-rated. I want an offense that scores points. Easier to play D when you have a lead.

Exactly. I like an offense that is balanced, that has the ability to score quick or play ball control depending on what is actually going on during the game, as opposed to what is says in the "system's" three-ring binder(Mularkey Frankenstein Football). Based on last season, I saw that bringing balance is exactly what Fairchild is doing, so I don't think it's fair to characterize the team as "ball control" or Martz-derived. In all cases, having maulers up front allows us the flexibility to do either. So yes, these offensive line signings help the defense without a doubt, if nothing more than keeping the D off the field if we play ball control, and if we score a lot(Martz), it takes the run game(the thing that we got killed on last year) away from the other team. Hell of a lot easier to play defense leading by 21 in the forth quarter, or the second quarter for that matter.

[nucci]

Exactly. I like an offense that is balanced, that has the ability to score quick or play ball control depending on what is actually going on during the game, as opposed to what is says in the "system's" three-ring binder(Mularkey Frankenstein Football). Based on last season, I saw that bringing balance is exactly what Fairchild is doing, so I don't think it's fair to characterize the team as "ball control" or Martz-derived. In all cases, having maulers up front allows us the flexibility to do either. So yes, these offensive line signings help the defense without a doubt, if nothing more than keeping the D off the field if we play ball control, and if we score a lot(Martz), it takes the run game(the thing that we got killed on last year) away from the other team. Hell of a lot easier to play defense leading by 21 in the forth quarter, or the second quarter for that matter.

Where in Philly are you. Moved to Wilmington from Buffalo in '93.

[2003Contenders]

I'm not sure that we can lay the guilt-by-association at the feet of Fairchild. I think, if anything, he was overly conservative last year -- but most of that was because he was scared to death of JP losing the game. As he became more confident in JP, he began to open the playbook up more -- and the offense magically got better. That is to say, that I liked what I saw out of Fairchild and believe that he will try to make the best use of the talent on hand. Remember that he also used to be a RB coach. I think where the signing of these new big bodies especially helps us is in those situations where we had trouble converting 3rd and 1 or 4th and 1 last year. If I am Willis right now, I'm trying to be on my best behavior so that I do not get traded -- even to the point of promising to show up for OTAs!

[Bill from NYC]

So, they found a way to shut you up? Say it ain't so, William.

 

If you would have said US, I would agree.

[tennesseeboy]

Dockery and Walker improve the offense. The loss of Clements and Fletcher (and maybe Spikes) will be countervailed by draft and other FA moves. If we get Briggs or Porter, draft an MLB...I think we'll be fine. If we get Okoye we will be fine. Clements was a racehorse plowing the back 40 in a cover 2 defense...more cornerback than we needed. Thomas or Youbooty will be fine there if strengthen the front 7...and whether we draft Okoye, Branch or Willis we will greatly improve one of the areas of need. FA will probably result in an addition and I think there are is a good solid cornerback crop which will be there in the second day. We'll be better next year than we were at the end of last year.

[OCinBuffalo]

Where in Philly are you. Moved to Wilmington from Buffalo in '93.

10th and Arch St. right on the border of Chinatown(or Center City East or whatever gay thing they are trying to force on us this week like Convention Center Place - bah! that is annoying! it just makes the tourists more confused which means 50 more people bugging me for directions every time I go to the store - hah! rant/over)

[nucci]

10th and Arch St. right on the border of Chinatown(or Center City East or whatever gay thing they are trying to force on us this week like Convention Center Place - bah! that is annoying! it just makes the tourists more confused which means 50 more people bugging me for directions every time I go to the store - hah! rant/over)

Cool - funny stuff

[Pyrite Gal]

I say no. I got the sense that Marv's top 2 priorities this offseason were fixing the o-line and the run defense. The o-line could be fixed, but I am not sold that Steve Fairchild will structure the system to the new personnel. In other words for the additions of Dockerey and Walker to mean anything to the defense the Bills will have to play a ball control offense and I am not sure a deciple of Mike Martz will be willing to do this.

 

Now we go to the run defense. Clements helped the run defense in two ways. The first was that he was a good tackler himself. Many cornerbacks do not like playing the run, but Clements was very capable of doing so. Also Clements did not need much safety help in that he could go one on one with the other teams receiver allowing one of the safeties to play the run. I think the loss of Fletcher is pretty well self explanatory in how his loss hurts the run defense. He played on some defenses in Buffalo that ranked very high against the run. The only way the loss of Fletcher won't hurt is if Marv is right in that the Bills need linebackers that attack and not just pursue.

 

Like someone was saying in another thread. You take a bad defense and take away two of its best players where does that leave it? I know it is very early in the offseason and it is possible Youboty could fill the gap left ny Clements, but it will take him a while if it ever happens to be in the same caliber as Nate. Unless the Bills add another big name in free agency to the defense the additions of Walker and Dockerey will be for nought.

 

I say no because there are a bunch of working parts to having a winning team that it is not a real way to consider this looking merely at the day you happen to plug in one part of the end result being the same day as when you officially unplug another part of the system.

 

Nate being part of how the 07 team was essentially unplugged when the Bills decided last year that it was quite unlikely that market cost of what even a very good CB could provide the Bills was not going to be worth the cost of franchising him for 07 and certainly not the likely market cost of signing him. Thus they agreed verbally not to tag him in 07 in order to both curry good favor with the players as a reliable partner and to get assurances from NC he would not throw a hissy fit last year.

 

Though NC was judged not likely to be worth the market value it would take to get his services, the Bills still need to have a CB, this part of the equation is likely not yet completed unless Youbouty who developed enough trust among the coaches that they gave him a start last year proves to be the guy.

 

IMHO the Bills can still use a second tier CB to compete with Youbouty for the role in our Hybrid Cover 2 of playing CB well enough to make it work. While certainly NC is a much better CB than Youbouty or a player like Thomas or a Harper, it seems quite clear that Cover 2 is not the highest and best scheme for NC and that the Bills can be a much better team allocating his cap hit to players on the OL and DL to run and stop the run rather than using it to pay NC a huge amount of money to not be used like a playmaker.

[OCinBuffalo]

Cool - funny stuff

Hey check out my sig - if you want to come watch the game in Center City. We have a great crew - very funny people and great fans(we have about 40 regulars - sometimes - when it's not a holiday - we get as many as 80!). And, you can take the train the whole way there. Last time I went to Wilmington I think it cost me $14 on Amtrack and but that was in 2000. It's $2 fitty to get to the bar(stop is right next door) from the amtrak station. With the deals we get, the whole thing will cost you about $50-60(of course that is if you drink like we do ).

[nucci]

Hey check out my sig - if you want to come watch the game in Center City. We have a great crew - very funny people and great fans(we have about 40 regulars - sometimes - when it's not a holiday - we get as many as 80!). And, you can take the train the whole way there. Last time I went to Wilmington I think it cost me $14 on Amtrack and but that was in 2000. It's $2 fitty to get to the bar(stop is right next door) from the amtrak station. With the deals we get, the whole thing will cost you about $50-60(of course that is if you drink like we do ).

I just might do that - I have the Sunday Ticket at home but it would be fun to go out - Don't drink like I used to - I had season tickets up until 2001 and the 90's are kind of a blur. Rich Stadium was fun back then!!

[apuszczalowski]

W/ Clements you had a largely known quantity. Although the Clements of 2005 is NOT worth that sort of $, but how he played the latter part of last yr was. 2 new, young OL from different teams (one of which sucked) is much more of a gamble. You just don't know what you've got.

Not even the second half Clements from last year is worth the money he just got. This makes him one of the highest paid players on defence in the league. Clements is not even the top CB in the league (top 5 yes)

[eSJayDee]

Clements is not even the top CB in the league (top 5 yes)

 

Actually, I mentioned to my friend that I consider him Top 10, i.e. IMO, he might not even be top 5.

But w/ the recent rise in salaries and the fact that CBs are among the higher paid positions (which corresponds to their value and scarcity of good/great ones), I think that IS the cost of A (not THE) top talent.

[R. Rich]

If you would have said US, I would agree.

 

 

Of course, Reverend. The Deacon clearly misspoke there. Sorry.

[Orton's Arm]

I say no. I got the sense that Marv's top 2 priorities this offseason were fixing the o-line and the run defense. The o-line could be fixed, but I am not sold that Steve Fairchild will structure the system to the new personnel. In other words for the additions of Dockerey and Walker to mean anything to the defense the Bills will have to play a ball control offense and I am not sure a deciple of Mike Martz will be willing to do this.

I absolutely love the Dockery signing. I couldn't be happier about that. As for Langston Walker--conventional wisdom suggests there are better ways to improve your offensive line than by signing the worst lineman from the league's worst line. I see Langston Walker as a poor man's Mike Williams, except without the run-blocking. My expectations for him are precisely zero. But that's just one man's opinion, and it's possible I'm being overly optimistic.

 

On the other hand, some Oakland fans hinted Walker makes a better guard than tackle. Teams generally try to hide their weakest lineman at RG. I have no doubt about which of the Bills' linemen is the weakest, nor about where Walker will be playing. I don't expect any improvement at all from the RG spot, unless Walker suddenly becomes a lot meaner and more motivated.

 

Does the addition of Dockery alone make up for the loss of both Clements and Fletcher? On paper, no. But if Youboty plays lights-out, and if Fletcher's replacement turns out to be an upgrade, we could end up with a better team in 2007 than we had in 2006.

 

For example, we could move Crowell to MLB, with Spikes and Ellison on the outside. If Spikes heals some more from his injury, that LB corps could provide a higher quality of play in 2007 than we got in 2006. I do expect a downgrade in our overall level of CB play; but that could be mitigated by Youboty doing well, and by McGee bouncing back from his bad year last year. Overall, our defense won't necessarily be worse than last year's, even if we don't make a single improvement to it between now and opening day.