Risin Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Ordinarily I would be agreeing with Paco....as I do on most things.... But in this case.....there are a multitude of reasons why the smart move is to bring JP Losman at the earliest possible time THAT HE IS HEALTHY..... - First...you have models going both ways on a rookie starting his first year and either making him better or worse....for instance....the QB from the bengals does not look like he has benefitted on the bench....while Payton Manning (another 1st round pick) struggled his first year and improved quickly...... - Second....I dont know if this Buffalo franchise can afford to wait.....the fans of the bills have become malcontent over having talent but always sitting at home for the playoffs.... BUT....I think there must be a general understanding amonst us fans that Losman IS GOING to struggle....we should expect it.....and we should lower our expectations accordingly...... 55679[/snapback] Good post John! I still feel our best shot at the playoffs is with DB though. Until either Drew is so awful, you have no choice to pull him, or we are all but out of the playoffs, we should stay the course at QB. I'm a big fan of JP, but like John said, we need to lower our expectations at first. We don't have the Raven Defense, or running game, so a rookie QB leading a team to the playoffs, in this big of a hole already, isn't likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 No insult to Tulane meant, but Losman played with a small-time football team in a small-time conference, where he could and did free-wheel and suffered tons of sacks. I'd prefer what TEN did with McNair, coming from Alcorn State...sit and learn. He's nowhere near as polished as Rivers, Roethlisberger or Manning, and in the 2 or so games per season when he played non - Conference USA opponents he had problems. Yes, I know he could surprise - but if a qb change occurs, use the steady if not spectacular Matthews. Granted, it was pre-season, but when he came in with a few days with the team, he was able to run an NFL offense and recognize an NFL defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Hey, listen...I'm not closed minded about this. I'd have absolutely no problem putting Losman in the game instead of Bledsoe NEXT WEEK, provided that he can also: stop a team from converting a 1st and 35 with a 40-yard pass play...help Travis Henry stand upright when running at a gaping hole...not jump offsides when the opponent is kicking a fourth and one field goal...not miss obvious opponent fumbles...not call phantom holding penalties on long kick returns... You'd be feeding a rookie quarterback to the wolves of Buffalo when there is absolutely little or no upside to it. You think having him get his clock cleaned week in and week out is WORTH the experience he's going to get...while simultaneously quitting on the season? And again...I am very firm on this point because like John Kerry "I have never waivered in my life:" we're not out of it yet. When we're out of it, then sure, throw him in. But we're not out of it yet, and until we are there is no reason to change quarterbacks because the quarterback is not the reason we keep losing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 I am arranging a visit for the Queen to my office - she's coming next Thursday - maybe I'll ask her if she'd like to suit up?? 55496[/snapback] You would hope that the opposing team would be reluctant to tackle her so maybe that would be a good move on the Bills part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Hey, listen...I'm not closed minded about this. I'd have absolutely no problem putting Losman in the game instead of Bledsoe NEXT WEEK, provided that he can also: stop a team from converting a 1st and 35 with a 40-yard pass play...help Travis Henry stand upright when running at a gaping hole...not jump offsides when the opponent is kicking a fourth and one field goal...not miss obvious opponent fumbles...not call phantom holding penalties on long kick returns... 55750[/snapback] I'll admit all of those things helped contribute to the loss...but what do the defensive mistakes have to do with the fact that our O hasn't put more than 1TD on the board in 3 weeks? Let's stick to offensive production. How were our 3rd down conversions Sunday? Is that Wire's fault too? Sure, it's the entire offenses fault that they're not producing, but something needs to be done to fix the problems. I've never heard of replacing the center or a guard on offense really sparking a team to some victories...I can't say the same about switching the QB. Maybe Drew's getting a bum deal (I don't think so but...), but if the offense doesn't start producing then Drew will be benched at some point. Hell, even if Drew starts playing better, the week we get our 8th loss (thereby ending any playoff chances) I want to see JP (if, and only IF, he's healthy) starting the next week. The moment we're playing towards next season we should put our future on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVJ Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 And prepare to have JP in a cast again, when Travis misses a block and JP gets creamed. 55498[/snapback] His bones will break next year the same as they will this year. A Running back will miss a block next year and the year after. Put him in...start the growing pains now. This team is not going to the playoffs. They're fighting to keep Dallas's draft pick out of the top 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corp000085 Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Didn't bradshaw and elway only sit for like half of their rookie years? Use them as examples. Hopefully JP can be learned by the time he's healthy enough to kick drew to the bench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 I'll admit all of those things helped contribute to the loss...but what do the defensive mistakes have to do with the fact that our O hasn't put more than 1TD on the board in 3 weeks? Let's stick to offensive production. How were our 3rd down conversions Sunday? Is that Wire's fault too? Sure, it's the entire offenses fault that they're not producing, but something needs to be done to fix the problems. I've never heard of replacing the center or a guard on offense really sparking a team to some victories...I can't say the same about switching the QB. Maybe Drew's getting a bum deal (I don't think so but...), but if the offense doesn't start producing then Drew will be benched at some point. Hell, even if Drew starts playing better, the week we get our 8th loss (thereby ending any playoff chances) I want to see JP (if, and only IF, he's healthy) starting the next week. The moment we're playing towards next season we should put our future on the field. 55875[/snapback] Okay, let's take the defense out of the equation. First drive of the third quarter. We get to the Patrtiot's 37. One holding penalty and two false starts, and before long we're 3rd and long, and before long we're punting again. Every time we seem to get momentum, we get another offensive penalty. I saw three dropped passes yesterday, and two plays where Moulds ran the wrong route. I saw a couple of players get hit late, but never saw a flag come out. I saw more than enough things happen on offense to make me realize that Bledsoe is not the primary problem. If I saw anything wrong with Bledsoe yesterday, it was the one thing people have always seen from him since he first became a quarterback. The more you have defenders bumping into him, falling around his feet, forcing him out of the pocket, the more his abilities fall straight to hell. But not in any game-costing manner. Now, back to the defense; let's say we STOP them from converting a 1st and 35, and we end up with the ball in great field position. Now eliminate the holding penalties, and false starts, and dropped balls. Or let's say the referees are NOT so quick to call "down by contact" and we get the second Dillon fumble...which was clearly a fumble. It all works together in one form or another. I'm not saying it's not broken. It's VERY broken. I'm just saying that plugging in a new quarterback won't fix things here any faster than it has managed to fix things in Miami. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risin Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Didn't bradshaw and elway only sit for like half of their rookie years? Use them as examples. Hopefully JP can be learned by the time he's healthy enough to kick drew to the bench. 55970[/snapback] Elway was a hair away from being benched his rookie year, good thing they stuck with him, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExWNYer Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 And Bledsoe has to come back in. All I'm saying, folks, is you don't start Losman until you know the season is over. Maybe you're all right. Maybe the season IS over...but technically it's NOT, and blind as I may be, as long as there's a chance...as long as we're still in it...you keep trying to advance yourself, day in and day out, game after game...you NEVER GIVE UP AND YOU NEVER SAY DIE. The problem...and I'll get flamed red-ass for this...is that so many people here don't want to take that position because all they see is the pending doom. Instead of taking on the battle and fighting the pending doom, they want to invite the pending doom in for some tea and cumpets so it's less painful to take. I can understand that sentiment. The French built a country around that sentiment. But you guys want to quit right now? Three games in and you want to throw in the towel? This team doesn't get paid to decide after three games that the season is over and we may as well start from scratch. Pussification at it's best. Nice. Real nice. Flame on, but the season isn't over. 55531[/snapback] I agree with you on this, Paco. Three games is too soon to give up on a season, although the Bills have dug themselves a huge hole and are starting to shovel the dirt on themselves. By the time Losman is ready to play it may be a moot point, anyway. The season could be gone. If that's the case, then play the kid. If not, stay the course. The Jest game is winnable...they did not impress me against the dulfelons. The dulfelon game is definitely winnable, with a loss likely at Baltimore, and the Cards at home being winnable. At that point, if the team is 3-4 and still in the wildcard hunt, you stay with Bledsoe. 2-5 or worse and it may be time to get JP into the lineup and ready him for full time duty in '05. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Not so fast, i think Losman will develop better for the Bills as a QB if he follows the Vick/Pennington sit and learn to be a better QB method and then make the playoffs your second year rather than rushing him along faster than his background or talent merits and potentially make him into Todd Collins. I agree that this team is clearly not capable of winning by overdepending on the gunslinging of Bledsoe, but this fact does not mean that it can win by overdepending upon a rookie at QB or that this rookie will develop best and benefit most from being thrown in behind this Tulane like O-line. Granted that players learn things playing at NFL speeds they do not learn watching, but JP strikes me as someone who will profit most in player development by: 1. Really learning how a good NFL offense flows and works. He needs to replicate what Kelly learned which allowed him to call plays in the K-Gun and the best way for him to learn this is by sewing his ear to Sam Wyches mouth in the press box and really learn how the Os of both teams work. 2. Focuses on his own head learning the game rather than focusing on learning how to motivate and teach Travis Henry which he will have to focus on if he might play in the game. I take Kyle Boller at his word that his season ending injury last year was great for his development because their were simply things you can learn when you have no chance of playing that you cannot learn when you are playing. 3. Works on his own mechanics so he does the same thing every play rather than exhibiting the bad habit he picked up under the run at Tulane of throwing off the wrong foot or improvising to make the play after a blocking breakdown. I am not saying that QB scrambling talent has not effect on sack outcomes. One need only look at Doug Flutie's example to see that. However, one need only look at the Flutie example to see that there is a lot more to being a successful QB than running talent. I hope that JP focuses this year on improving his game and not on simply playing for the short term benefit of fans. 55342[/snapback] Here's the problem I have with your take which, in theory. is certainly not incorrect... First off, I really believe JP is what I will call and "exception" athlete at the QB position...The exception being that after learning the Playbook basics, and assuming he's healthy, sitting does a QB like him absolutely no good. I believe this due to the fact that JP has, by most accounts, extraordinary Leadership qualities. QB's like JP NEED to play to get better. On the sidelines they are so damn ansy to get in, they really don't digest all they possibly can because they are constantly thinking they can do better. Now there certainly is a point to holding a guy like JP back, but the ONLY reason can be if the Coaches do not believe he has a good enough grasp of the Offense, or Defenses he will face. That is a legitimate excuse for not bringing JP in, and IMHO, the only excuse. Never, ever, ever, do you hold any NFL Player who is cleared to play physically back because you are protecting him from injury. That is simply not a thought process that NFL Teams use. It's a brutal sport and the possibility of injury is endless, so you just can't hold a guy out because your afraid he may get hurt. There is a point in time in every QB's development where playing is the ONLY way he will get better. Now, I'm not saying JP is there yet, that's up to the Coaches to decide. But I have a feeling he's very close to being there. And if in fact the Bills Season looks lost, and let's face facts it's VERY close to being lost already, the jump start on 2005 that JP will get by playing will be invaluable. Again I believe that because I believe JP is the exception to the rule. I see a lot of Brett Favre in JP at least as far as swagger/mental makeup is concerned. I think he's the kind of QB you throw out there, let him make his mistakes, and allow him to develop under fire. Plus I think there will be a tremendous amount of pressure on TD and the entire Bills Organization if the losses continue to mount. The absolute best thing that can happen to them at that point is JP showing he truly is the QB of the future for this Franchise. Sticking with Drew through an entire losing Season will result in TD and the Bills Brass taking a Media beating like never before. This is of coarse assuming Drew continues to play the way he is right now. I just don't believe you can ignore the negative Media/Fans aspect in this case because TD has certainly worn out almost every courtesy he was alloted in re-building this Franchise. If things continue to go bad, you can just imagine how much worse they will get when the #1 Pick that went to the Cowboys continues to get better and better. By playing JP this Season at least TD can comment on his in-game progress when the questions fly concerning the Pick... So in summary I believe JP must play this Season (assuming the Bills continue to lose) IF in fact the Coaches believe he is ready, IF Bledsoe continues his average to less than average play, and IF the Trainers clear him for full contact. I think JP has the mental makeup to handle the ups and downs, and I think the boost it will give the Bills going into 2005 will be invaluable. In fact, that boost may very well save TD's job... But that's just what I think... B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Hey, listen...I'm not closed minded about this. I'd have absolutely no problem putting Losman in the game instead of Bledsoe NEXT WEEK, provided that he can also: stop a team from converting a 1st and 35 with a 40-yard pass play...help Travis Henry stand upright when running at a gaping hole...not jump offsides when the opponent is kicking a fourth and one field goal...not miss obvious opponent fumbles...not call phantom holding penalties on long kick returns... You'd be feeding a rookie quarterback to the wolves of Buffalo when there is absolutely little or no upside to it. You think having him get his clock cleaned week in and week out is WORTH the experience he's going to get...while simultaneously quitting on the season? And again...I am very firm on this point because like John Kerry "I have never waivered in my life:" we're not out of it yet. When we're out of it, then sure, throw him in. But we're not out of it yet, and until we are there is no reason to change quarterbacks because the quarterback is not the reason we keep losing. 55750[/snapback] Oh...you had to throw the Kerry thing in there because you know I would agree with you...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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