Crap Throwing Monkey Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 The attempt by many to describe this as a "mexican invasion" couldn't be further from the truth. There are undocumented, productive, law-abiding workers from almost every country in the world here. I'd love to see the reaction in this country, and this forum for that matter, if all of a sudden 50,000 undocumented Irish workers and their "anchor babies" were rounded up, handcuffed, and deported. 711214[/snapback] A statement that itself illustrates the vast gulf in perception. Yes, they're illegals from all over the world here - I know more than a few from south and southeast Asia, myself. But how many Irish illegals do you think are actually here? 50k? 100k? As compared to 12 million Hispanic illegal immigrants? Hell, there's almost certainly more illegal immigrants from Mexico here than there are Irish in Ireland! So while you're technically correct in that illegal immigrants come from all countries...the perception is that illegal immigratrion is overwhelmingly a problem of Hispanic migration (or, as I told some of my H1-visa'd coworkers, "illegal immigration" is really just a "secret code" for "Mexican immigration.") And that perception is based on the simple reality that it's far easier for your average Mexican to walk across the border than it is your average Irishman to cross the Atlantic (as you pointed out yourself - there's organizations devoted to getting Irishmen into the US...Hispanics can just hoof it on a whim if they choose.) The problem - such as it is - is overwhelmingly a "Mexican" (i.e. Hispanic) immigration problem. And yeah, that's racist. That's why it's referred to as "illegal immigration" and not "Hispanic immigration". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 And that perception is based on the simple reality that it's far easier for your average Mexican to walk across the border than it is your average Irishman to cross the Atlantic 711229[/snapback] Not really. It costs a person from South America a considerably larger amount of money (in the way of bribes, transportation, "guides", etc) in proportion to their native income to illegally enter the US from the south than it does for an Irish immigrant to fly into Logan airport and dissappear into Dorchester. The Irishman hops on a plane, and is here in a few hours. The latino has to "hoof it" through the desert and contend with a criminal underground of corrupt guides and border officials on his/her sometimes weeks-long journey into this country. I'm willing to bet the risk, both physically and monetarily, is far greater for those coming from the south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Lost on many of you who are so vocal on this topic is the fact that not all of the undocumented workers are "mexican". Irish Lobby for Immigration Reform Here's a transcript from an interview with an Irish immigration counselor in Boston from 2001. Some 40 Million Americans Claim Irish Heritage Many of these undocumented workers have become law-abiding, productive members of society, a fact that is not lost on the Irish living in and around Boston. The Boston Irish Reporter: Time to Stand Up And Be Counted Here's more from IrishAbroad.com, covering the immigration rally in NYC. They zero in on one of the "anchor babies" I see villified in this forum every time this comes up. More from an Irish blog (Irish Voices). Scrolling down to another entry from the same blog should hit particularly close to some of you from Buffalo: The attempt by many to describe this as a "mexican invasion" couldn't be further from the truth. There are undocumented, productive, law-abiding workers from almost every country in the world here. I'd love to see the reaction in this country, and this forum for that matter, if all of a sudden 50,000 undocumented Irish workers and their "anchor babies" were rounded up, handcuffed, and deported. 711214[/snapback] Wow, you pulled out the big gun of liberal debate tactics: When logic blows your argument right out of the water, go for the heart and use "feelings, nothing more than feelings" as your primary weapon. And if that weren't enough, you structure your argument to paint everyone who doesn't agree with you as a racist and a bigot. Way to be open-minded there lefty. So for the record you're tolerant about men having buttsex, but anyone having a differing opinion on illegal immigration should be made to feel shame. Got ya. Besides, this dog don't hunt anyway. We are a nation of laws. If we are to the beacon of truth and justice in a world that has very little (and we do a pretty piss poor job of being that beacon anyway) then we must enforce all laws fairly. People are here ILLEGALLY should be forced to pay a penalty and if deportation is ruled to be that penalty then the Irish should be shipped home too. My mom who is still an Irish citizen can stay though, because she married an American guy. There are rules and ways to stay, but to just arrogantly say "Screw you US I'm staying" is an invation to the breakdown of law and order. Oh and way to be way wrong about it not being a "Mexican invasion". Aren't you scientists supposed to use only peer verifiable facts instead of pulling things completely out of your ass? Hey look, there's Ireland checking in at #17 on the list. We better watch out for the Irish Invasion. Estimated Illegal Immigrant Population for Top Twenty Countries of Origin and Top Twenty States of Residence: October 1996 Country of origin Population State of residence Population All countries 5,000,000 1. Mexico 2,700,000 2. El Salvador 335,000 3. Guatemala 165,000 4. Canada 120,000 5. Haiti 105,000 6. Philippines 95,000 7. Honduras 90,000 8. Dominican Republic 75,000 9. Nicaragua 70,000 10. Poland 70,000 11. Colombia 65,000 12. Ecuador 55,000 13. Trinidad & Tobago 50,000 14. Jamaica 50,000 15. Pakistan 41,000 16. India 33,000 17. Ireland 30,000 18. Korea 30,000 19. Peru 30,000 20. Portugal 27,000 Other 764,000 http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/shared/about...ien/illegal.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Many of these undocumented workers have become law-abiding, productive members of society, a fact that is not lost on the Irish living in and around Boston. 711214[/snapback] Quick question...If someone is here illegally, how can they also be called a "law-abiding citizen?" Is there a quota on how many laws must be broken before they lose the "law-abiding citizen" monikor? (OK, that was two questions) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Wow, you pulled out the big gun of liberal debate tactics: When logic blows your argument right out of the water, go for the heart and use "feelings, nothing more than feelings" as your primary weapon. And if that weren't enough, you structure your argument to paint everyone who doesn't agree with you as a racist and a bigot. Way to be open-minded there lefty. So for the record you're tolerant about men having buttsex, but anyone having a differing opinion on illegal immigration should be made to feel shame. Got ya.711253[/snapback] No, I'm pointing out that this isn't a black and white issue with respect to origin of country. Almost every single post on this subject refers to illegals from Mexico, which is not completely a true representation of who these undocumented workers are. Besides, this dog don't hunt anyway. We are a nation of laws. If we are to the beacon of truth and justice in a world that has very little (and we do a pretty piss poor job of being that beacon anyway) then we must enforce all laws fairly. People are here ILLEGALLY should be forced to pay a penalty and if deportation is ruled to be that penalty then the Irish should be shipped home too. My mom who is still an Irish citizen can stay though, because she married an American guy. There are rules and ways to stay, but to just arrogantly say "Screw you US I'm staying" is an invation to the breakdown of law and order.711253[/snapback] Several of the links I posted refer back to, or mention programs from this (Boston) area that helped legalize many of the undocumented Irish in the 80s and 90s, most of whom remain here as vital, productive, integrated citizens of the Commonwealth. Those programs worked, and Boston is a city that embraces it's Irish heritage. Oh and way to be way wrong about it not being a "Mexican invasion". Aren't you scientists supposed to use only peer verifiable facts instead of pulling things completely out of your ass? Hey look, there's Ireland checking in at #17 on the list. We better watch out for the Irish Invasion.711253[/snapback] No, I wouldn't consider a little over half of the undocumented workers coming from Mexico (as per your link below) as the definition of a strictly "mexican invasion". If, as a scientist, I saw a jar of colored marbles, and 54% of them were red, I would not describe it as a jar of "red marbles." Estimated Illegal Immigrant Population for Top Twenty Countries of Originand Top Twenty States of Residence: October 1996 Country of origin Population State of residence Population All countries 5,000,000 1. Mexico 2,700,000 2. El Salvador 335,000 3. Guatemala 165,000 4. Canada 120,000 5. Haiti 105,000 6. Philippines 95,000 7. Honduras 90,000 8. Dominican Republic 75,000 9. Nicaragua 70,000 10. Poland 70,000 11. Colombia 65,000 12. Ecuador 55,000 13. Trinidad & Tobago 50,000 14. Jamaica 50,000 15. Pakistan 41,000 16. India 33,000 17. Ireland 30,000 18. Korea 30,000 19. Peru 30,000 20. Portugal 27,000 Other 764,000 http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/shared/about...ien/illegal.pdf 711253[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Quick question...If someone is here illegally, how can they also be called a "law-abiding citizen?" Is there a quota on how many laws must be broken before they lose the "law-abiding citizen" monikor? (OK, that was two questions) 711255[/snapback] Once again, this is not an adequate way to frame the issue. Many undocumented workers arrived in this country by "legal" (in the strict sense of the word) means, ie work visas, education visas, US employer sponsorships, asylum seekers, who intended to remain here legally, but whose time ran out. Others are here to follow family that is here legally. If you want me to say, "Yes, Ken, they aren't here legally," I'll give you that. You win. However, in my opinion, they are here, most aren't causing any problems, and those that have integrated well into society should be allowed to stay. Clearly, that is where we are going to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 No, I wouldn't consider a little over half of the undocumented workers coming from Mexico (as per your link below) as the definition of a strictly "mexican invasion". If, as a scientist, I saw a jar of colored marbles, and 54% of them were red, I would not describe it as a jar of "red marbles." 711263[/snapback] 1. Mexico 2,700,000- 54% red 2. El Salvador 335,000- 6.7% blue 3. Guatemala 165,000- 3.3% orange 4. Canada 120,000-2.4% green Fug it, I'm too lazy to go on, suffice it to say, that jar is made up primarily of red marbles. The next color isn't anywhere close to having the same amount of marbles. Also factor in that a great many of those illegal immigrants listed for other countries most likely came through Mexico to enter the United States. So how about instead of calling it a 'Mexican Invasion', we call it a 'Mexico-Based Invasion'? Can you agree about this or do you want to dissemble and play semantics some more? 5. Haiti 105,000 6. Philippines 95,000 7. Honduras 90,000 8. Dominican Republic 75,000 9. Nicaragua 70,000 10. Poland 70,000 11. Colombia 65,000 12. Ecuador 55,000 13. Trinidad & Tobago 50,000 14. Jamaica 50,000 15. Pakistan 41,000 16. India 33,000 17. Ireland 30,000 18. Korea 30,000 19. Peru 30,000 20. Portugal 27,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HereComesTheReignAgain Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Lost on many of you who are so vocal on this topic is the fact that not all of the undocumented workers are "mexican". Irish Lobby for Immigration Reform Here's a transcript from an interview with an Irish immigration counselor in Boston from 2001. Some 40 Million Americans Claim Irish Heritage Many of these undocumented workers have become law-abiding, productive members of society, a fact that is not lost on the Irish living in and around Boston. The Boston Irish Reporter: Time to Stand Up And Be Counted Here's more from IrishAbroad.com, covering the immigration rally in NYC. They zero in on one of the "anchor babies" I see villified in this forum every time this comes up. More from an Irish blog (Irish Voices). Scrolling down to another entry from the same blog should hit particularly close to some of you from Buffalo: The attempt by many to describe this as a "mexican invasion" couldn't be further from the truth. There are undocumented, productive, law-abiding workers from almost every country in the world here. I'd love to see the reaction in this country, and this forum for that matter, if all of a sudden 50,000 undocumented Irish workers and their "anchor babies" were rounded up, handcuffed, and deported. 711214[/snapback] I must have missed all the Irish flags in the crowd. I can understand and sympathize with some of the Illegal immigrants that come to this country for a better life. That does not mean we can allow uncontrolled immigration. Our country could not economically support the huge flow of immigrants that would love to come here. What ends any sympathy and understanding is the utterly outrageous nerve of somebody who is not a citizen of this country to demand changes in U.S. law. Again not all illegal immigrants feel it is their right to be here, some just appreciate the fact that they are here and understand that if they are caught or commit another crime, they will be sent back. By the way, how is an illegal immigrant a law abiding person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Once again, this is not an adequate way to frame the issue. Why not? Because it does not give you the outcome you want? Illegal is illegal, regardless of how you want to spin it. Many undocumented workers arrived in this country by "legal" (in the strict sense of the word) means, ie work visas, education visas, US employer sponsorships, asylum seekers, who intended to remain here legally, but whose time ran out. Others are here to follow family that is here legally. If you want me to say, "Yes, Ken, they aren't here legally," I'll give you that. You win. It is not about winning and losing. It is about upholding the laws of our country. You cannot pick and choose which laws you decide to obey. However, in my opinion, they are here, most aren't causing any problems, and those that have integrated well into society should be allowed to stay. 711278[/snapback] If they want to integrate into society, they need to become law-abiding citizens of that society. Again, we cannot have people pick and choose which laws they decide to obey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheRocks Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 QUOTE(KRC @ Jun 20 2006, 02:03 PM)Quick question...If someone is here illegally, how can they also be called a "law-abiding citizen?" Is there a quota on how many laws must be broken before they lose the "law-abiding citizen" monikor? (OK, that was two questions) Once again, this is not an adequate way to frame the issue. 711278[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 Why not? Because it does not give you the outcome you want? Illegal is illegal, regardless of how you want to spin it.It is not about winning and losing. It is about upholding the laws of our country. You cannot pick and choose which laws you decide to obey. If they want to integrate into society, they need to become law-abiding citizens of that society. Again, we cannot have people pick and choose which laws they decide to obey. 711294[/snapback] Isn't that exactly what MLK Jr. and those involved in the civil rights movement were doing -- picking and choosing to obey certain laws and civilly disobeying the laws in which they saw an injustice? Were they wrong? I'm not equating the movement of illegal immigrants with this movement, but still, there's a case to be made, that the majority -- or the law -- can be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 The attempt by many to describe this as a "mexican invasion" couldn't be further from the truth. There are undocumented, productive, law-abiding workers from almost every country in the world here. 711214[/snapback] Come on, man, you can't be serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Isn't that exactly what MLK Jr. and those involved in the civil rights movement were doing -- picking and choosing to obey certain laws and civilly disobeying the laws in which they saw an injustice? Were they wrong? I'm not equating the movement of illegal immigrants with this movement, but still, there's a case to be made, that the majority -- or the law -- can be wrong. 711306[/snapback] It's not in this case. I don't think they should be given amnesty but I sure as sh-- want them documented so we can kick them out if we want or if they prove to be unproductive or useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Isn't that exactly what MLK Jr. and those involved in the civil rights movement were doing -- picking and choosing to obey certain laws and civilly disobeying the laws in which they saw an injustice? Were they wrong? I'm not equating the movement of illegal immigrants with this movement, but still, there's a case to be made, that the majority -- or the law -- can be wrong. 711306[/snapback] Breaking the law is breaking the law. If you do not like the law, get it changed. Do not ignore the laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Breaking the law is breaking the law. If you do not like the law, get it changed. Do not ignore the laws. 711325[/snapback] Bingo!! Thats what Mothers Against Drunk Drivers did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacka Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 In California, the Mexicans illegals make up about 95% of the total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 1. Mexico 2,700,000- 54% red2. El Salvador 335,000- 6.7% blue 3. Guatemala 165,000- 3.3% orange 4. Canada 120,000-2.4% green Fug it, I'm too lazy to go on, suffice it to say, that jar is made up primarily of red marbles. The next color isn't anywhere close to having the same amount of marbles. Also factor in that a great many of those illegal immigrants listed for other countries most likely came through Mexico to enter the United States. So how about instead of calling it a 'Mexican Invasion', we call it a 'Mexico-Based Invasion'? Can you agree about this or do you want to dissemble and play semantics some more? 5. Haiti 105,000 6. Philippines 95,000 7. Honduras 90,000 8. Dominican Republic 75,000 9. Nicaragua 70,000 10. Poland 70,000 11. Colombia 65,000 12. Ecuador 55,000 13. Trinidad & Tobago 50,000 14. Jamaica 50,000 15. Pakistan 41,000 16. India 33,000 17. Ireland 30,000 18. Korea 30,000 19. Peru 30,000 20. Portugal 27,000 711283[/snapback] I think calling it an "invasion" at all is misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I must have missed all the Irish flags in the crowd. I can understand and sympathize with some of the Illegal immigrants that come to this country for a better life. That does not mean we can allow uncontrolled immigration. Our country could not economically support the huge flow of immigrants that would love to come here. What ends any sympathy and understanding is the utterly outrageous nerve of somebody who is not a citizen of this country to demand changes in U.S. law. Again not all illegal immigrants feel it is their right to be here, some just appreciate the fact that they are here and understand that if they are caught or commit another crime, they will be sent back. By the way, how is an illegal immigrant a law abiding person? 711287[/snapback] I don't see many out there calling for uncontrolled immigration. They are calling for immigration reform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I think calling it an "invasion" at all is misleading. 711338[/snapback] I'd think it was more misleading if a certain subset of Hispanic immigrants didn't refer to it as the "Reconquista". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I'd think it was more misleading if a certain subset of Hispanic immigrants didn't refer to it as the "Reconquista". 711347[/snapback] La Raza. Quaint eh, good thing they're not white. That would be BAD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts