TKO is the best linebacker the Bills ever had

[BuckeyeBill]

Yeah, I'd rate Talley higher if he didn't lose his jock strap vs. Mark Ingram on that 3rd down catch in the SB.

Still a fan favorite though.

440152[/snapback]

 

I thought it was Baker and not Ingram.

[BRH]

I thought it was Baker and not Ingram.

440413[/snapback]

Baker caught the TD at the end of the half to make it 12-10. Ingram was the one who converted the third and forever on that drive. Neither should have happened.

[BuckeyeBill]

Cliffnotes begin: I love Spikes but London Fletcher is da man. Cliff notes end.

 

Don't get me wrong because I think Spikes was a wonderful acqusition by this team, deserved the two Pro Bowl nods he has received here and is a great player.

 

However, I think there is a reasonable case to be made simply looking a their on-field production that he is not even the best LB on this team but that in fact London Fletcher is.

 

When one factors in the reality (whether we like it or not it is the reality in the salary cap level playing field of the NFL) of bang for the buck there is no question to me that Fletcher is by far a bigger contributor to the Bills than Spikes since not only do we get a year in and year out team leadership in tackles for a small cost by NFL standards for Fletcher, but he simply plays manty more essential roles that Spikes while equalling or exceeding his output by many standard LB statisitcal INDICATORS.

 

For example:

 

1. The MLB can more easily get to both sides of the field than the OLB, but Fletcher does this racking up significantly more tackless than Spikes at OLB. Consideration of Fletchers performance should not be diminished because he plays in the center of the field. He produced tackles at a greater level than Spikes and simply showed he is at least his equal in production and in fact simply plays a role where he is required to cover more area and jobs and he has done thin.

 

2. His ST contribution is huge and is an area that Spikes is not generally asked to do. Fletcher was our primary short-kickoff guy last year and was reliable in this ball handling role. Whe nhe wasn't showing surprising ball handling skills for an LB, he led the way in a wedge of blockers which player a key role in McGee scoring a ton of TDs often untouched due to the superior blocks and McGee doing a great job of reading these blocks.

 

3. Fletcher not Spikes is the team captain on D. The big rap i see on Fletcher as a player is that he occaisionally is so rapacious as a player he will draw a personal foul that hurt us in one or two games last year, but this over the top attribute has not stopped Fletcher from also demonstrating that he knows this game.  He often is in the refs face making a case that they should have or should not have made a particular call while the TV commentors or me as a viewer is still trying to figure out what the heck happened and who should be bitched about because of the call. Fletched often seems to be there and is actually the lead sign that gives a clue as to what the heck happened. He da man.

 

4. Cleatrly Spikes creates opportunities for Fletcher to perform but likewise I think Spikes owes many of his accomplshments to the precence of Fletcher. I think this is shown in that Fletcher clearly produced even when Spikes was not here breaking Spielman's tackle record as he was pretty alone the best player on our D.  Often the team captaincy will got to the best performer on the field or to the new kid in town with the  big contract. Despite Spikes contract, Fletcher retained the captaincy and I think this was a bow to Fletcher's performance from the better paid Spikes and an acknowledgement from Spikes of the fact that in part he does the things which bring him deserved praised for folks like Kelly because Fletcher is such a sideline to sideline terror.

 

5. Sure there are some measures where Spikes outdid Fletcher last years like I think Spikes got more INTs and turned them into more TDs. I do not remember the fumble recovery comparison (though Fletcher got 1 Sunday picking up the ball Kelsay stripped) from last year. Hpwever, in addition to easily surpassing him in tackles last year both players had 3 sacks in the Bills zone blitz scheme.

 

Sure Spikes has the Pro Bowls and Fletcher does not but I think this says more about the popularity aspects of this selection (though it is a true good thing) than it does about a real assessment of Fletcher's production. Ironically, i think if Fletcher were paid more (a worse deal for us) he actually would draw more Pro Bowl support.

 

My bottomline is that in answer to the question of whether Fletcher is a great LB who is one of the best in the league. I say yes!

 

However, the irony here is that though he is one of the best in the NFL, I don't think he is the best LB on this team!

440203[/snapback]

 

Great points about Fletcher... the overlooked heart of the defense... a man I'm proud to call our captain. But here's a question for you...

 

If I were to tell you that on Sunday, there would be a Bills linebacker get an interception and return it 70 yards for a touchdown... who would you venture to guess the man would be?

 

Surely TKO. Fletcher may be a better player, but TKO is a better play-maker. I'm glad we have one of each. Both being consistent and steady... never injured (knock on wood)

[BuckeyeBill]

Baker caught the TD at the end of the half to make it 12-10.  Ingram was the one who converted the third and forever on that drive.  Neither should have happened.

440415[/snapback]

 

Ah yes.. that's right. I think that both Takeo and London would have made that tackle... but that's just my opinion.

[Mikie2times]

And this is the all-time defense I'd go to war with:

 

DE:  Bruce Smith, Tom Sestak

NT:  Ted Washington

OLB:  Takeo Spikes, Cornelius Bennett

ILB:  Shane Conlan, Chris Spielman

CB:  Nate Clements, Butch Byrd

SS:  Lawyer Milloy

FS:  Troy Vincent

 

That's right, I want four guys from RIGHT NOW on my all-time team.  That's how good this D is.

440198[/snapback]

 

DE: Bruce Smith, Sestak

DT: Ted Washington, Sam Adams

OLB: Takeo Spikes, Biscuit

MLB: Spielman

CB: Clements, Byrd

SS: Milloy

FS: Vincent

 

I also gave consideration to Fletcher at MLB as I think he could take Conlan or Speilmans place with no major drop off. With Fletcher I would have 6 players, without him "only" 5. Pretty damn impressive when you’re talking about the history of this franchise, its AFL glory days, and the Super Bowl run.

[Cheeseburger_in_paradise]

Yeah, I'd rate Talley higher if he didn't lose his jock strap vs. Mark Ingram on that 3rd down catch in the SB.

Still a fan favorite though.

440152[/snapback]

 

Yeah, and he also got his nose bloodied by one of Magic Johnson's body guards before one of the super bowls. bad form.

[gus2378]

The only guy close to Spikes is Biscuit.

I love Talley, but if he and Biscuit were quarterbacks, Bennett is Kelly and Talley is the Frank Reich ... we all love him, but do we really want him starting over Kelly? No way.

Not to say Talley was not a huge part of those teams ... he kept Bruce in line and didn't have an ounce of prima donna or quit in him, which was very important on a team full of egos ...

But Biscuit was a guy that teams had to account for, and that allowed Bruce to occasionally get less attention. He was capable of making huge game-changing plays rushing the passer (like the CB Triple at Miami ... sacked marino, forced fumble, recovered it for a TD) and yet was underrated against the run. And don't forget, he played almost an entire season one of those Super Bowl years (1991 or 92 I think) on the inside because other guys were hurt, and he had a HUGE year, making the Pro Bowl. Talley could not have pulled that off.

Again, no disrespect to Talley, but Biscuit was so talented I think people took the plays he made for granted, whereas Talley was looked at as the less talented underdog so when he started making plays they stood out.

[buckeyemike]

Great points about Fletcher... the overlooked heart of the defense... a man I'm proud to call our captain.  But here's a question for you...

 

If I were to tell you that on Sunday, there would be a Bills linebacker get an interception and return it 70 yards for a touchdown... who would you venture to guess the man would be? 

 

Surely TKO.  Fletcher may be a better player, but TKO is a better play-maker.  I'm glad we have one of each.  Both being consistent and steady... never injured (knock on wood)

440417[/snapback]

 

London Fletcher is my favorite player, but Takeo is the guy I'd want backing me up in a street fight. He's not the greatest Bill LB ever, but ask me again at the end of the 2007 season.

 

London gets tackles, but Takeo is a warrior, after all.

 

However, I am surprised that London Fletcher has NEVER been to a Pro Bowl, according to the Bills Media Guide.

 

Mike

[AKC]

Great points about Fletcher... the overlooked heart of the defense... a man I'm proud to call our captain.  But here's a question for you...

 

If I were to tell you that on Sunday, there would be a Bills linebacker get an interception and return it 70 yards for a touchdown... who would you venture to guess the man would be? 

 

Surely TKO.  Fletcher may be a better player, but TKO is a better play-maker.  I'm glad we have one of each.  Both being consistent and steady... never injured (knock on wood)

440417[/snapback]

 

Steak or Sizzle?

 

Like FFS, I lprefer football players in the middle of the second line and Fletcher is all football player, much like Chris Speilman before him. It's easy to argue the Sizzle guy because Takeo has so much range and great instincts, but the mere fact that you might even find some ground to compare them throws the weight of the argument in my mind to London considering his job isn't designed for the highlight reels.

 

And Speilman- just the thought is enough to make you want to pull on some clothes the little lady had buried in some drawer that usually only gets opened when the house needs painting and rustle up the old gang in Meadowbrook Court for a full contact afternoon. Football- there's something for all of us!

[Doctor Duck]

Let me settle this debate the only way I can (ridiculously). Spikes is the best linebacker in the history of the sport because he is also a bowler. Bowling is that X-factor that puts him head and shoulders above the rest. He know the virtues of being a bowling ball...and knocking down the opponents like so many pins!!

 

 

 

We have had a few excellent ones over the years, but TKO has a combination of size, speed, skills, athleticism, playmaking ability, production and star quality that IMO is unmatched, and I have been watching the Bills since the mid 60s.

 

He kills people, he's as good on the run or the pass, he's consistent, he has remarkable hands for INTs and picking up fumbles, he can be a terror on blitzes, he plays all downs and has the speed to be all over the field, he's good fundamentally, he's smart, he never lets up, he rarely if ever has a bad game, he rarely misses tackles or opportunities, he never misses a game, he's respected and known around the league as a stud, he scores touchdowns, he's made it to the Pro Bowl and he makes spectacular highlight reel hits and plays. And he comes across as a great guy. We really have never had that total package of consistent stellar, spectacular play.

440133[/snapback]

[Kelly the Dog]

Steak or Sizzle?

 

Like FFS, I lprefer football players in the middle of the second line and Fletcher is all football player, much like Chris Speilman before him. It's easy to argue the Sizzle guy because Takeo has so much range and great instincts, but the mere fact that you might even find some ground to compare them throws the weight of the argument in my mind to London considering his job isn't designed for the highlight reels.

 

And Speilman- just the thought is enough to make you want to pull on some clothes the little lady had buried in some drawer that usually only gets opened when the house needs painting and rustle up the old gang in Meadowbrook Court for a full contact afternoon. Football- there's something for all of us!

440676[/snapback]

You're telling me that if you had to choose one linebacker for the Bills, you would choose Fletcher over Spikes? I dig Fletch, and think he's a tremendous competitor and player but he's not the player Spikes is. Spikes is steak and sizzle.

[Taro T]

I would agree with that assessment, and after a couple years of play at the level he's at right now, I don't think there will be any doubt. He is the total package in every respect, a true superstar.

 

I loved Talley, but it took him a few years before he became an impact player. In fact for awhile there before the playoff run, I thought he might be a bust. Bennett was tremendous, but he could've been one of the all-time greats, close to another LT, I don't think he ever realized his full potential. Conlan and Spielman were nice, but really can't be mentioned in the same breath as the others. Stratton was very solid, not great. Paup may have had the best year of anyone, but he wasn't what I consider a true LB. Don't forget Lucius Sanford, very underrated by Bills fans but a hell of a player.

440410[/snapback]

When Talley came into the league, he was playing for the STUPIDEST man to ever coach a football team in his defensive coordinator and then head coach Hank "They took the sails out of our wind" Bullough. I don't think anyone could have become an impact player with that ignoramus running the show. Heck, Bullough would bench him. How are you supposed to be an impact player when you aren't even on the field?

 

Dave.

[The Dean]

Baker caught the TD at the end of the half to make it 12-10.  Ingram was the one who converted the third and forever on that drive.  Neither should have happened.

440415[/snapback]

 

THAT'S the play that cost us that Superbowl win. Others blame Norwood...I blame the D for that play...TERRIBLE!

[The Dean]

You're telling me that if you had to choose one linebacker for the Bills, you would choose Fletcher over Spikes? I dig Fletch, and think he's a tremendous competitor and player but he's not the player Spikes is. Spikes is steak and sizzle.

440723[/snapback]

 

K-Dog, I think I'm going to agree (I think) that TKO may be the best the Bills have seen. Also, as an old guy, I'd like to see more love for Stratton and Haslett...though neither were as dominate or complete as TKO.

 

With that said, Fletcher is vastly underrated by Bills fans (and the NFL in general, IMO) and his total consistancy and incredible speed allow TKO to do some of the things he does in this defense. TKO can free-lance a little and show that "Star quality"...or sizzle because he knows London has his back...Fletch is EVERYWHERE. LF may not have much sizzle...he's all steak.

 

With that said, If I had to choose only one linebacker for my team I'd choose:

TKO...if the other linebackers were better than average...or if the MLB was superior

Fletcher...if the other LBs stunk.

 

BTW, how ya been?

[AKC]

You're telling me that if you had to choose one linebacker for the Bills, you would choose Fletcher over Spikes? I dig Fletch, and think he's a tremendous competitor and player but he's not the player Spikes is. Spikes is steak and sizzle.

440723[/snapback]

 

I'd have difficulty picking Takeo OVER London- my answer is I don't believe Takeo is measurably superior to London because the fundamental purpose of a defender is to tackle the guy with the ball. London does that a lot more than Takeo (and a lot more than anyone except maybe Ray Lewis in the league), granted in Takeo's case it's by design, but his numbers still don't lie. The raw data is there- and it says London Fletcher. And my eyes tell me the same thing. Consequently I can't say Takeo is a "better football player"- I have no doubt he'd be a far better gymnast or pole vaulter than London, but I would disgree with others who have made some point about picking a guy to fight on your side- I wouldn't hesitate first from our roster to pick London as my partner in a bar brawl because as much as I like watching Takeo play football- I always know where London is going to be when the pile gets sorted out ;-)

[Kelly the Dog]

K-Dog, I think I'm going to agree (I think) that TKO may be the best the Bills have seen.  Also, as an old guy, I'd like to see more love for Stratton and Haslett...though neither were as dominate or complete as TKO.

 

With that said, Fletcher is vastly underrated by Bills fans (and the NFL in general, IMO) and his total consistancy and incredible speed allow TKO to do some of the things he does in this defense.  TKO can free-lance a little and show that "Star quality"...or sizzle because he knows London has his back...Fletch is EVERYWHERE.  LF may not have much sizzle...he's all steak.

 

With that said, If I had to choose only one linebacker for my team I'd choose:

TKO...if the other linebackers were better than average...or if the MLB was superior

Fletcher...if the other LBs stunk. 

 

BTW, how ya been?

440760[/snapback]

Excellent. The better question is: "Where you been?"

 

Stratton and Haslett were both very good football players but I am really finding it hard to believe people don't see that most of the other players were very tough and good and were usually great at one thing. Conlan and Haslett and Speilman as run stuffers, Paup at rushing the passer, and were solid or mediocre at other things. TKO does virtually required of an LB at an all-pro level and more. And if you switched TKO to the middle and Fletcher to the outside, I genuinely believe that TKO would have as many or more tackles than Fletcher, but that Fletcher would not be making the game changing plays that TKO is (although he would still put up the high tackle stats).

[Taro T]

THAT'S the play that cost us that Superbowl win.  Others blame Norwood...I blame the D for that play...TERRIBLE!

440750[/snapback]

There were FAR too many plays that could have changed the game to pick one and say "That's the play that cost us that Superbowl". They include: Bennett dropping sure interception and probable touchdown on drive that gives Giants their last FG; not getting Hostetler to drop the ball on the safety; Reed's drop when he got hammered the next time the Bills got the ball; the dropped pass to the TE on that series; Lofton bobbling the ball on the bomb he caught instead of catching it clean and going into the endzone; 2 or 3 other 3rd and forevers that kept Giants drives going; Kelly getting shaken up on and having to waste a timeout on the last drive; and Bills losing about 12 seconds when the officials reviewed McKellar's catch.

 

I'm sure there are a few others, but I'm trying to forget that game! Also, if I'm not mistaken, Talley's elbow had gotten messed up in the Raiders blowout and his whole arm was taped up. I don't know how much that effected him, but that is about the only game I can remember where he missed tackles.

 

Dave.

[The Dean]

There were FAR too many plays that could have changed the game to pick one and say "That's the play that cost us that Superbowl".  They include: Bennett dropping sure interception and probable touchdown on drive that gives Giants their last FG; not getting Hostetler to drop the ball on the safety; Reed's drop when he got hammered the next time the Bills got the ball; the dropped pass to the TE on that series; Lofton bobbling the ball on the bomb he caught instead of catching it clean and going into the endzone; 2 or 3 other 3rd and forevers that kept Giants drives going; Kelly getting shaken up on and having to waste a timeout on the last drive; and Bills losing about 12 seconds when the officials reviewed McKellar's catch. 

 

I'm sure there are a few others, but I'm trying to forget that game!  Also, if I'm not mistaken, Talley's elbow had gotten messed up in the Raiders blowout and his whole arm was taped up.  I don't know how much that effected him, but that is about the only game I can remember where he missed tackles.

 

Dave.

440851[/snapback]

 

Well of course you're right logically...but there's no place for logic here, damnit! Actually a few of those you mention are a little different..."not getting Hostetler to drop the ball"? But, the thing about Ingram's play is that we missed several tackles on a 3rd and very long.

 

So, while logically, there were many missed opportunities...Emotionally that was the killer. Now I'm all pissed-off!

 

Thank God it's getting close to cocktail time and all will be well soon.

[Taro T]

Well of course you're right logically...but there's no place for logic here, damnit!  Actually a few of those you mention are a little different..."not getting Hostetler to drop the ball"?  But, the thing about Ingram's play is that we missed several tackles on a 3rd and very long. 

 

So, while logically, there were many missed opportunities...Emotionally that was the killer.  Now I'm all pissed-off! 

 

Thank God it's getting close to cocktail time and all will be well soon.

440909[/snapback]

I included the Hostetler play because I have no f*cking idea how the SOB held onto the ball. That should have been 7. (yeah, yeah, I know: would've, should've, could've) Also, I think it happened before the safety, but Hostetler was nearly knocked out of the game. I remember seeing him sniffing smelling salts on the sideline with Cavanaugh warming up.

 

Great, now I'm pissed and depressed!!!

 

Dave.

[Dan Gross]

I'd have difficulty picking Takeo OVER London- my answer is I don't believe Takeo is measurably superior to London because the fundamental purpose of a defender is to tackle the guy with the ball.

440766[/snapback]

 

See I'd disagree. I'd say the fundamental purpose of a defender is to get the ball back to the offense with the best field position possible (scoring if at all possible). That means, for example, knocking a ball down (or even intercepting the ball) if it's on the way to a receiver is a higher priority than waiting for the receiver to catch it and then tackling him. Again, yes it's the roles of each individual player, but a LB being the 2nd best on the team in interceptions, plus being one of the leading tacklers is nothing to sneeze at. It is tough, as I couldn't believe it when we signed London (especially at half the price of Cowart), but "all-around," for coverage and tackling and nose for the ball ability I'd take Takeo.