djfarr00 Posted April 10, 2005 Author Share Posted April 10, 2005 price had four good years for the bills; there was a steady progression every year in his game. as for him being one of the "worst #1 receivers" in the game, last time i checked, teams in the nf of l started two (and sometimes 3) receivers if they happen to run a pro formation offense. in that sort of offense, a good # 2 receiver is key. plus, if you're going to judge price's rep on his post-bills production in the ron mexico-led offfense of the falcons, i guess there's nothing to discuss. as for donohoe's 1999 draft, present some evidence. same goes for NE circa 2003. 300767[/snapback] even more key than that #2 is a good #1. Price ain't it. Price had a few 6 - 7 hundred yard seasons, then one breakout year. not quite the allstar he was touted as on someones post. As far a vic goes, a great wide reciever will get his numbers w/ a bad quarterback and bad "2 and 3" receivers. most recently Owens on the niners See Garcia, wilson, streets 1998 pitts. draft (which was already listed) just not round by round round 1 26th pick (later than butler ever had) - Alan Faneca (best G in NFL) 2- Jeremy Staat 3- Chris Conrad 3- Hines Ward 4 Deshea Townsend 4 Chirs King 5 Jason Simmons 6 Fuamatu ma'afala 2002 pats 1 Daniel Graham 2 Deion Branch 4 Rohan Davey 4 Jarvis Green 7 Antione Womack 7 David Givens 2003 Pats 1 Ty Warren 2 Eugene Wilson 2 Bethel Johnson 4 Dan Klecko 4 Asante Samuel 5 Dan Koppan 6 Kliff Kingsbury 2000 bills draft 1 (at 26, same as Faneca) ERIK FLOWERS 2- TAVERASS TILLMAN 3COREY MOORE 4 AVION BLACK 5 SAMMY MORRIS 6 LEIF LARSON 7DASHON POLK To my original point... the reason we didn't have talent and Donahoe had some much work was because no players that we drafter were any good ( excpet 3 in 99) 98 sucked and 00 was maybe the worst draft class in the history of the bills. i wasn't stating Donahoe a god, but he's done a pretty good job w/o the help of good core group. if you look at the pats drafts (listed by me) all or a large majority make a contribution on the team. We didn't get that from Butlers crap ass drafts. Also i see a lot of people met the challenge of finding a better draft class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerme1 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 talk about rewriting history -- sheesh! this takes the cake! butler's 1999 draft was one of the best in his career -- a truly excellent draft. 1 - winfield - pro bowl caliber cb for the vikes last year 2 - price - highly productive for the bills and an especially good pick for a second rounder 3 - shawn bryson - still a productive back in the league who had roughly 50 receptions last year for the lions. he would have been a much better player for the bills if he hadn't torn up his knee in his first training camp. 4 - keith newman - productive player in cotrell's scheme and still in the league which is more than you can say for the vast majority of 4th rounders 6 years down the road 4a - bobby collins - didn't pan out 5 - jay foreman - a starting caliber journeyman who led the texans in tackles a couple of years. again, way better productivity than most 5th rounders. 6 - armon hatcher - didn't make it. 7a - sheldon jackson - borderline sub for three years, which is far better than most 7th rounders, who rarely last more than a year (assuming they make the roster) 7b - bryce fisher - 8.5 sacks as starting RDE for the rams last year. 'nuff said. i challenge anyone to come up with a more productive draft by any team in the league in the past 10 years. 300686[/snapback] How can I say this politely without offending? I'll try this. I thought John Butler was a blowhard as a GM. I never felt like he had a grasp of what was really going on. To put it bluntly, he would have made one hell of an Erie County Legislator!! But may he RIP. Anyway after reading your post it gives me a bad taste of Donahoe. Mind you I would say that was a home run draft for Big John. I dislike TD even more than Butler. But I will say he sure as hell knows how to manage a cap where Butler was absolutely clueless about it. I would like to add that MadBuffaloDisease with the breakdown of TD's 2001 draft equals if not betters this. But TD is looked at by Ralph as much more than a GM and I don't think that will ever change. No matter what, some GM will always get a lucky breakout player that turns out to be a difference maker. Willis is that kind of gamble, and guess what you heard it here first folks, JP is taking us to the playoffs in his first year as a starter! If he doesn't, then I've got at least a dollar for anyone who cares to claim it!!! I guess that would solidify TD in my mind and many others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djfarr00 Posted April 10, 2005 Author Share Posted April 10, 2005 thanks - that pats draft was great. as for the pack draft, it was very butler-like. i'll be honest -- i have no freakin' tolerance for the the ignorant yahoos who have a) no respect for butler despite the fact that he ran every draft in the golden years and was key to building a good SD team and b) buy into an exaggerated rep for donhoe (a solid guy who has so far failed with the bills) when contrary evidence stares them in the face. 300772[/snapback] it wasn't very Bulter like at all because it didn't suck. This ignorant yahoo (good guess) has independant thoughts. I happen to believe we are in the situation we are in (better than most teams) only because whitey took over. also, i thought Bill Polian ran many of the drafts during the golden years. It was after he left that abortions like that 00 draft were allowed to happen also - last time i checked sd was only good last year. prior to that the team was a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 thanks - that pats draft was great. as for the pack draft, it was very butler-like. i'll be honest -- i have no freakin' tolerance for the the ignorant yahoos who have a) no respect for butler despite the fact that he ran every draft in the golden years and was key to building a good SD team and b) buy into an exaggerated rep for donhoe (a solid guy who has so far failed with the bills) when contrary evidence stares them in the face. 300772[/snapback] Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneknee Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 "it wasn't very Bulter like at all because it didn't suck." Funny..and true. "i thought Bill Polian ran many of the drafts during the golden years. It was after he left that abortions like that 00 draft were allowed to happen." Also true. I believe draft quality dropped considerably after BP left. "also - last time i checked sd was only good last year." Very true. Check out Butler's epic 2002 SD draft for further evidence... I don't think the initial point was to denegrade Butler or deify Donohue, but to look for the reason why the roster had to be completely rebuilt during the last few years. There was NO TALENT due to poor drafts. Sorry the guy is dead, but he was not a good GM. Not only do you have the draft history, but as another poster mentioned, Butler had no concept of cap mgmt. What do I know though? I'm off to have another cigarette... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBuffaloDisease Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 I'm off to have another cigarette... Better quit that before we have to call you OneLung. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 it wasn't very Bulter like at all because it didn't suck. This ignorant yahoo (good guess) has independant thoughts. I happen to believe we are in the situation we are in (better than most teams) only because whitey took over. also, i thought Bill Polian ran many of the drafts during the golden years. It was after he left that abortions like that 00 draft were allowed to happen also - last time i checked sd was only good last year. prior to that the team was a mess. 300783[/snapback] re butler in the late 80s/early 90s, he was the head of scouting and the guy who told polian who was good and who wasn't. polian pulled the trigger, but he was working from info given to him by butler's college scouting team. butler is widely credited for the thurman thomas pick in 88, by the way. as for the bolts, butler took over a really bad team that got a lot better last year after he passed away. the last time donohoe oversaw a 12-4 team was 1997. don't get me wrong - donohoe is a solid guy who has had some real success in the past (that said, the bills better produce this year or his rep will go up in smoke, at least to me). butler was integral to the bills success under polian - he wasn't just another guy fulfilling polian's commands. here's what the bills did under butler: 1993 - 12-4 1994 - 7-9 1995 - 10-6 1996 - 10-6 1997 - 6-10 1998 - 10-6 1999 - 11-5 2000 - 8-8 That's 74-54 (a .578 winning percentage), which translates into 94-68 in baseball. that's not too shabby. if the ultimate determinant of success is wins and losses, i'll take that. recall that the bills defense was a dominant unit from 1995 through 2000 as well. one other thing - don't forget about the free agent signings. paup, ted washington, bill brooks (a very solid #2 for a couple of years), spielman, gash, and flutie were all integral to the bills success in that period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 IMO no discussion on Butler draft picks is complete without mentioning Kamil Loud wonder what he's up to. haven't heard any Ode's lately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 thanks - that pats draft was great. as for the pack draft, it was very butler-like. i'll be honest -- i have no freakin' tolerance for the the ignorant yahoos who have a) no respect for butler despite the fact that he ran every draft in the golden years and was key to building a good SD team and b) buy into an exaggerated rep for donhoe (a solid guy who has so far failed with the bills) when contrary evidence stares them in the face. 300772[/snapback] Depends on what you're talking about. A GM's job is multi-faceted, with the draft being a significant part but in reality, only about 20-25% of the GM's job. TD's record is pretty good IMO in that area and solid or fair IYO in that area. But he has been very good IMO in the free agency element of his job description (considering who he has signed and who he let go). He has been excellent in the getting fannies in the seats element of his job description. He has been fantastic in the promotion and regionalization element (going to St. John Fisher, attracting the Rochester fan base, corporate sponsorship, Syracuse, Ontario, etc.). He has been quite good in the salary cap element of his job description. He has been pretty good in the trade element (Getting McGahee for PP and Drew, whom even though he let us down got the city energized, the fan base up, got PP enough press to get Willis, got Spikes and Adams and Viincent and a few others to join the team in FA). He has been poor in his coaching choices (so far, with a pretty good chance of Mularkey proving to be a fine choice). And he has been poor in the won-loss/playoffs element but I would think the team let him down more than he let the team down. This year will likely be a good window as to whether or not TD's reign will be deemed a success or not. I think he has put the team in a very good position to excel in the next few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Depends on what you're talking about. A GM's job is multi-faceted, with the draft being a significant part but in reality, only about 20-25% of the GM's job. TD's record is pretty good IMO in that area and solid or fair IYO in that area. But he has been very good IMO in the free agency element of his job description (considering who he has signed and who he let go). He has been excellent in the getting fannies in the seats element of his job description. He has been fantastic in the promotion and regionalization element (going to St. John Fisher, attracting the Rochester fan base, corporate sponsorship, Syracuse, Ontario, etc.). He has been quite good in the salary cap element of his job description. He has been pretty good in the trade element (Getting McGahee for PP and Drew, whom even though he let us down got the city energized, the fan base up, got PP enough press to get Willis, got Spikes and Adams and Viincent and a few others to join the team in FA). He has been poor in his coaching choices (so far, with a pretty good chance of Mularkey proving to be a fine choice). And he has been poor in the won-loss/playoffs element but I would think the team let him down more than he let the team down. This year will likely be a good window as to whether or not TD's reign will be deemed a success or not. I think he has put the team in a very good position to excel in the next few years. 301959[/snapback] dog, i'd agree that donohoe is better in the biz department, and i don't mean to sell that stuff short - it's really important. but from where i sit personally, i really only care about wins and losses. donohoe hasn't done so well in that regard, althought the last 2/3 of last season are pointing in the right direction (plus i instinctively like mularkey). as for the team letting him down, it's his freaking team, lock, stock, and barrel. you can't separate him from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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