drafts

[djfarr00]

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history

 

Bills drafts from 1997 - 2000 were simply pathetic.

 

There isn't one player from the 2000 draft that is still on the team / made any impact when he did play for the team.

 

Players like Arrington are now superstars and remain w/ their original teams. I am really glad we dont have tavaress tillman and corey moore, but what horrible drafts.

 

I look at those years as our reason for failure in the last 2 years. Rookies take time to develop. from 97 - 00 we have basically no players that remain on the team. Only Peerless price and Antoine winfield had any talent.

 

In 3 years we'll be able to look back and see how TDs drafts have improved the team. Many players will still be on the team and they will have increased overall talent

[Nanker]

About one third of every team consists of journeymen players.

These are guys that can play but are not stars, nor are stars in the making.

They can last for years if management doesn't change because they're the devil that's "known." When a new regime takes over a club those players are lucky to survive through the second year because the new guy wants to pick his own depth (fillers).

 

Put another way, had JB not left, some of his cast of characters from those drafts would undoubtedly still be on The Bills and AJ would be our GM.

 

Here's another way of looking at it. There are 32 teams in the league. Each year I'll guess an average of 4 new players (rookies & UFAs) make each squad. That's 128 new players INTO the league which must be balanced by 128 old player OUT of the league. That's about 2 1/2 teams worth of players - every year. In five years that adds up to about a third of the league and over six years it's nearly half the league.

 

Now, pretend you're a GM that's just taken over a team. You want to keep the last guy's underwear, or get your own new stuff for cheaper at the Draft store?

[Nanker]

Go back and look at the 1998 Draft and see that JB's wonderful trade for Rob Johnson cost us Fred Taylor. Ouch!

Also, JB was picking rather late in the rounds comparatively to what Donnaho's had to work with.

 

If The Bills don't make the playoffs this year and appear to be floundering (God forbid!) and Ralphie loses patience and shlt-cans the front office, be sure to drop back in five years and see how many of Whitey's draft picks are still on the team when it's been under new management for five years.

 

Will Mike Williams?

Will Josh Reed?

Will Justin Bannan?

Will Kevin Thomas?

Will Mike Pucillo?

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

Go back and look at the 1998 Draft and see that JB's wonderful trade for Rob Johnson cost us Fred Taylor. Ouch!

Also, JB was picking rather late in the rounds comparatively to what Donnaho's had to work with.

 

If The Bills don't make the playoffs this year and appear to be floundering (God forbid!) and Ralphie loses patience and shlt-cans the front office, be sure to drop back in five years and see how many of Whitey's draft picks are still on the team when it's been under new management for five years.

 

Will Mike Williams?

Will Josh Reed?

Will Justin Bannan?

Will Kevin Thomas?

Will Mike Pucillo?

300458[/snapback]

 

 

Not to spoil a good ol' fashioned Whitey-hatin'.... but Pucillo is not with the team anymore.

 

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Go back and look at the 1998 Draft and see that JB's wonderful trade for Rob Johnson cost us Fred Taylor. Ouch!

Also, JB was picking rather late in the rounds comparatively to what Donnaho's had to work with.

 

If The Bills don't make the playoffs this year and appear to be floundering (God forbid!) and Ralphie loses patience and shlt-cans the front office, be sure to drop back in five years and see how many of Whitey's draft picks are still on the team when it's been under new management for five years.

 

Will Mike Williams?

Will Josh Reed?

Will Justin Bannan?

Will Kevin Thomas?

Will Mike Pucillo?

Uh, Bannan, Pucillo, and Thomas were 5th rounders or later. Williams will likely be around and Thomas may be as well. Reed probably is a goner if he doesn't get his act together.

[Nanker]

Not to spoil a good ol' fashioned Whitey-hatin'.... but Pucillo is not with the team anymore.

 

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Exactly. That's the point.

 

It's not that I'm tortured that Donnaho is in control.

But I do think it's a stretch to crown him a genius at least at this point in his career.

[Nanker]

Uh, Bannan, Pucillo, and Thomas were 5th rounders or later.

300483[/snapback]

 

So...?

 

Williams will likely be around

300483[/snapback]

 

Really! Have you seen his cap hit over the next couple of years?

 

and Thomas may be as well. 

300483[/snapback]

 

The premise is a regime change at 1BD. I don't think Thomas would last. I really don't.

 

Reed probably is a goner if he doesn't get his act together.

300483[/snapback]

As early as this year perhaps.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

So...?

Day 2 picks rarely stick around PERIOD, especially after a regime change.

Really! Have you seen his cap hit over the next couple of years?

What are they?

The premise is a regime change at 1BD. I don't think Thomas would last. I really don't.

As a backup CB on the cheap, he probably would.

[Josh]

... how many of Whitey's draft picks are still on the team when it's been under new management for five years.

 

Will Mike Williams?

Will Josh Reed?

Will Justin Bannan?

Will Kevin Thomas?

Will Mike Pucillo?

 

 

Will Willis McGahee?

Will Lee Evans?

Will JP Losman?

Will Terrence McGee?

Will Chris Kelsay?

Will Nate Clements?

 

It's sure easy to list a bunch of people that are already considered busts/half-busts....

[Nanker]

Day 2 picks rarely stick around PERIOD, especially after a regime change.

"...have you seen Mike Williams cap numbers?"

What are they?

 

As a backup CB on the cheap, he probably would.

300514[/snapback]

 

 

I'm quoting Clumping Platelets here,

"Mike Williams... I have his cap number now at $9.17 million because he triggered salary escalators for 2005-2007. He has 3 years remaining on his rookie deal signed in 2002. They breakdown as follows:

 

2005: $4 million salary, $2.17 million bonus amortization, $3 million roster bonus for a cap hit of $9.17 million. He also has a $1.5 million NLTBE incentive that I do not know how he earns.

 

2006: $4 million salary, $2.17 million bonus amortization, $3 million roster bonus for a cap hit of $9.17 million plus $1.5 million NLTBE.

 

2007: $5 million salary, $2.17 million bonus amortization plus $3.5 million NLTBE"

 

Nice pay for a RT, IMHO. I'm sure his fat-as-his-waistline salary won't factor into putting a lot more quality players on the field at The Ralph.

 

I think a backup CB could and would be had for cheaper than Thomas by a new GM (not Modrak - if he's the successor - I said regime change which implies wholesale change.)

 

Again, the point isn't to slime Donnaho any more than his record of not getting into the playoffs for four years has already done to him. I just don't think the guy's a genius, and as the original poster was trying to point out Butler's last drafts were weak. Well, JB was drafting around the 25th position. Donnaho's been drafting around 9th. Big difference if you ask me.

 

For example, Lavar Arrington was the #2 pick in The Draft in 2000. Buffalo picked Erick Flowers at #26. Look Here for hidden gems... Gosh! I'd have picked Arrington too! Why didn't Butler? What a maroon! He didn't get the job done - did he?

 

The other thing that some have overlooked here is that TD absolutely purged the roster. Not all of that was necessary to make payroll. If you think Willis is going to hang around here after his Rookie contract runs out without trying to stick up the bank, have another think about that, please.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

Nanker,

 

I am not a blind follower of TD, but I honestly have to say that I do not understand your point at all. The original comment, that JB did not do well in the draft, is frankly much easier to prove, since there has been more time to see how drafts turn out. The fact that so few former JB draft choices have panned out here or anywhere is a sad commentary. By all means, count the extenuating circumstances; I believe he was giving it a try, but the truth is the 1996-200 drafts were all designed to be holding pattersn while JB and the rest of the Bills hoped that somehow the vet nucleus would produce one SB. Thus he did not take any chances, but kept looking for special pieces, hoping for that big break to come, while extending veterans like Fina... It did not come (thanks among other things to HRTF), and then it all came crashing down with cap hell in 2001.

 

TD was brought in to clean up that mess, and he has done a creditable job. Some in the NFL (outside of TSW) actually think he has done a very good job. Prophets and their native lands come to mind...

 

With that being said, your decision to jump on TD looks premature to me. It is really much much too early to claim that the players you cite (outside of Pucillo, a late round choice who has been cut) are busts. Sure we are unhappy that the Bills have not made the playoffs, but am I the only person who remembers we were over .500 last year? Look at the history of the Bills (especially outside of the magical years 1988-1993) and suddenly that does not look so insignificant. I am hopeful for the future, and am in no hurry to run TD off. Is he a genius? He's a football general manager. There are no geniuses in sports. Ask Bill Parcells how easy it is to win while rebuilding. The genius argument is a straw man. A better standard is, do you think that the Bills would be appreciably better with a different GM? I think not.

 

Go Bills!

[The Jokeman]

Go back and look at the 1998 Draft and see that JB's wonderful trade for Rob Johnson cost us Fred Taylor. Ouch!

Also, JB was picking rather late in the rounds comparatively to what Donnaho's had to work with.

 

If The Bills don't make the playoffs this year and appear to be floundering (God forbid!) and Ralphie loses patience and shlt-cans the front office, be sure to drop back in five years and see how many of Whitey's draft picks are still on the team when it's been under new management for five years.

 

Will Mike Williams?

Will Josh Reed?

Will Justin Bannan?

Will Kevin Thomas?

Will Mike Pucillo?

300458[/snapback]

 

Actually, I feel we lost Tra Thomas when trading for RJ in 1998 but then again if look at Butler's draft history he rarely took O-lineman in Round 1. Yet that's here nor there.

 

Let's look at Butler's 2002 draft with the Chargers, how many of these guys will still be with the Chargers and remember that they drafted 1 spot beneath us.

 

Will Quentin Jammer ?

Will Toniu Fonoti ?

Will Reche Caldwell ?

Will Ben Leber ?

Will Justin Peelle ?

[dave mcbride]

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history

 

Bills drafts from 1997 - 2000 were simply pathetic.

 

There isn't one player from the 2000 draft that is still on the team / made any impact when he did play for the team. 

 

Players like Arrington are now superstars and remain w/ their original teams.  I am really glad we dont have tavaress tillman and corey moore, but what horrible drafts. 

 

I look at those years as our reason for failure in the last 2 years.  Rookies take time to develop.  from 97 - 00 we have basically no players that remain on the team.  Only Peerless price and Antoine winfield had any talent. 

 

In 3 years we'll be able to look back and see how TDs drafts have improved the team.  Many players will still be on the team and they will have increased overall talent

300349[/snapback]

 

talk about rewriting history -- sheesh! this takes the cake! butler's 1999 draft was one of the best in his career -- a truly excellent draft.

 

1 - winfield - pro bowl caliber cb for the vikes last year

2 - price - highly productive for the bills and an especially good pick for a second rounder

3 - shawn bryson - still a productive back in the league who had roughly 50 receptions last year for the lions. he would have been a much better player for the bills if he hadn't torn up his knee in his first training camp.

4 - keith newman - productive player in cotrell's scheme and still in the league which is more than you can say for the vast majority of 4th rounders 6 years down the road

4a - bobby collins - didn't pan out

5 - jay foreman - a starting caliber journeyman who led the texans in tackles a couple of years. again, way better productivity than most 5th rounders.

6 - armon hatcher - didn't make it.

7a - sheldon jackson - borderline sub for three years, which is far better than most 7th rounders, who rarely last more than a year (assuming they make the roster)

7b - bryce fisher - 8.5 sacks as starting RDE for the rams last year. 'nuff said.

 

i challenge anyone to come up with a more productive draft by any team in the league in the past 10 years.

[djfarr00]

Go back and look at the 1998 Draft and see that JB's wonderful trade for Rob Johnson cost us Fred Taylor. Ouch!

Also, JB was picking rather late in the rounds comparatively to what Donnaho's had to work with.

 

If The Bills don't make the playoffs this year and appear to be floundering (God forbid!) and Ralphie loses patience and shlt-cans the front office, be sure to drop back in five years and see how many of Whitey's draft picks are still on the team when it's been under new management for five years.

 

Will Mike Williams?

Will Josh Reed?

Will Justin Bannan?

Will Kevin Thomas?

Will Mike Pucillo?

300458[/snapback]

yeah, but they'll be on someones team. i guess the point that i didn't make is that almost all of those players are gone from the NFL. If you look at other teams in the same time period, drafting in similar spots, we did a lousy job.

[djfarr00]

talk about rewriting history -- sheesh! this takes the cake! butler's 1999 draft was one of the best in his career -- a truly excellent draft.

 

1 - winfield - pro bowl caliber cb for the vikes last year

2 - price - highly productive for the bills and an especially good pick for a second rounder

3 - shawn bryson - still a productive back in the league who had roughly 50 receptions last year for the lions. he would have been a much better player for the bills if he hadn't torn up his knee in his first training camp.

4 - keith newman - productive player in cotrell's scheme and still in the league which is more than you can say for the vast majority of 4th rounders 6 years down the road

4a - bobby collins - didn't pan out

5 - jay foreman - a starting caliber journeyman who led the texans in tackles a couple of years. again, way better productivity than most 5th rounders.

6 - armon hatcher - didn't make it.

7a - sheldon jackson - borderline sub for three years, which is far better than most 7th rounders, who rarely last more than a year (assuming they make the roster)

7b - bryce fisher - 8.5 sacks as starting RDE for the rams last year. 'nuff said.

 

i challenge anyone to come up with a more productive draft by any team in the league in the past 10 years.

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only have to go as far as Pittsburgs 1998 draft

Faneca, Stat, Conrad, Ward, Townsend, King, Simmons, Fuatu ma'afala, Olsen

 

Price had one good year for us. i am really glad he did because it got us WM. However, if you think he's a talented receiver you clearly haven't been watching a lot of football. he's one of the worst #1 receivers in the league.

Note pittsburg 98 draft, hines ward came from the 92nd pick.

 

The major difference is as someone said, butler is great at drafting sweaty, dirty undies, the whites. I would take 3-4 superstars vs a bunch of journeyman anytime.

See also NE 2003 draft.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

talk about rewriting history -- sheesh! this takes the cake! butler's 1999 draft was one of the best in his career -- a truly excellent draft.

 

1 - winfield - pro bowl caliber cb for the vikes last year

2 - price - highly productive for the bills and an especially good pick for a second rounder

3 - shawn bryson - still a productive back in the league who had roughly 50 receptions last year for the lions. he would have been a much better player for the bills if he hadn't torn up his knee in his first training camp.

4 - keith newman - productive player in cotrell's scheme and still in the league which is more than you can say for the vast majority of 4th rounders 6 years down the road

4a - bobby collins - didn't pan out

5 - jay foreman - a starting caliber journeyman who led the texans in tackles a couple of years. again, way better productivity than most 5th rounders.

6 - armon hatcher - didn't make it.

7a - sheldon jackson - borderline sub for three years, which is far better than most 7th rounders, who rarely last more than a year (assuming they make the roster)

7b - bryce fisher - 8.5 sacks as starting RDE for the rams last year. 'nuff said.

 

i challenge anyone to come up with a more productive draft by any team in the league in the past 10 years.

TD's 2001 draft:

1 21 Nate Clements

2 46 Aaron Schobel

2 58 Travis Henry

3 76 Ron Edwards

3 95 Jonas Jennings

4 110 Brandon Spoon

5 144 Marques Sullivan

6 178 Tony Driver

6 195 Dan O'Leary

6 196 Jimmy Williams

7 214 Reggie Germany

7 238 Tyrone Robertson

 

The first 5 picks plus Jimmy Williams are still in the NFL and all (except Williams who left the Bills after 2001 and was a productive DB and ST'er for the 49'ers) are will be starters this year (assuming Travis gets traded).

[34-78-83]

TD's 2001 draft:

1  21  Nate Clements 

2  46  Aaron Schobel 

2  58  Travis Henry 

3  76  Ron Edwards 

3  95  Jonas Jennings 

4  110  Brandon Spoon 

5  144  Marques Sullivan 

6  178  Tony Driver

6  195  Dan O'Leary 

6  196  Jimmy Williams 

7  214  Reggie Germany 

7  238  Tyrone Robertson 

 

The first 5 picks plus Jimmy Williams are still in the NFL and all (except Williams who left the Bills after 2001 and was a productive DB and ST'er for the 49'ers) are will be starters this year (assuming Travis gets traded).

300717[/snapback]

 

Good reply. I'd agree that this was a better draft as well.

 

Here's one that I'd add as well from the Packers in 1995:

1995

Rd Sel# Player Pos. School

1 32 Craig Newsome DB Arizona State

3 65 Darius Holland DT Colorado

3 66 William Henderson FB North Carolina

3 73 Brian Williams OLB Southern California

3 90 Antonio Freeman WR Virginia Tech

4 117 Jeff Miller T Mississippi

5 160 Jay Barker QB Alabama

5 170 Travis Jervey RB Citadel

6 173 Charlie Simmons WR Georgia Tech

7 230 Adam Timmerman G South Dakota State

 

 

and.... (Pats)

1995

Rd Sel# Player Pos. School

1 23 Ty Law CB Michigan

2 57 Ted Johnson ILB Colorado

3 74 Curtis Martin RB Pittsburgh

3 88 Jimmy Hitchcock CB North Carolina

4 112 Dave Wohlabaugh C Syracuse

6 195 Dino Philyaw RB Oregon

7 234 Carlos Yancy DB Georgia

[dave mcbride]

only have to go as far as Pittsburgs 1998 draft

Faneca, Stat, Conrad, Ward, Townsend, King, Simmons, Fuatu ma'afala, Olsen

 

Price had one good year for us.  i am really glad he did because it got us WM.  However, if you think he's a talented receiver you clearly haven't been watching a lot of football.  he's one of the worst #1 receivers in the league. 

Note pittsburg 98 draft, hines ward came from the 92nd pick.

 

The major difference is as someone said, butler is great at drafting sweaty, dirty undies, the whites.  I would take 3-4 superstars vs a bunch of journeyman anytime. 

See also NE 2003 draft.

300715[/snapback]

 

price had four good years for the bills; there was a steady progression every year in his game. as for him being one of the "worst #1 receivers" in the game, last time i checked, teams in the nf of l started two (and sometimes 3) receivers if they happen to run a pro formation offense. in that sort of offense, a good # 2 receiver is key. plus, if you're going to judge price's rep on his post-bills production in the ron mexico-led offfense of the falcons, i guess there's nothing to discuss.

 

as for donohoe's 1999 draft, present some evidence. same goes for NE circa 2003.

[dave mcbride]

TD's 2001 draft:

1  21  Nate Clements 

2  46  Aaron Schobel 

2  58  Travis Henry 

3  76  Ron Edwards 

3  95  Jonas Jennings 

4  110  Brandon Spoon 

5  144  Marques Sullivan 

6  178  Tony Driver

6  195  Dan O'Leary 

6  196  Jimmy Williams 

7  214  Reggie Germany 

7  238  Tyrone Robertson 

 

The first 5 picks plus Jimmy Williams are still in the NFL and all (except Williams who left the Bills after 2001 and was a productive DB and ST'er for the 49'ers) are will be starters this year (assuming Travis gets traded).

300717[/snapback]

 

mbd, this is a good draft to be sure. my only comment is that the late round production is pathetic - no one even played besides spoon, and he only played because cowart was hurt (spoon was terrible too).

[dave mcbride]

Good reply. I'd agree that this was a better draft as well.

 

Here's one that I'd add as well from the Packers in 1995:

1995

Rd Sel# Player Pos. School

1 32 Craig Newsome DB Arizona State

3 65 Darius Holland DT Colorado

3 66 William Henderson FB North Carolina

3 73 Brian Williams OLB Southern California

3 90 Antonio Freeman WR Virginia Tech

4 117 Jeff Miller T Mississippi

5 160 Jay Barker QB Alabama

5 170 Travis Jervey RB Citadel

6 173 Charlie Simmons WR Georgia Tech

7 230 Adam Timmerman G South Dakota State

and.... (Pats)

1995

Rd Sel# Player Pos. School

1 23 Ty Law CB Michigan

2 57 Ted Johnson ILB Colorado

3 74 Curtis Martin RB Pittsburgh

3 88 Jimmy Hitchcock CB North Carolina

4 112 Dave Wohlabaugh C Syracuse

6 195 Dino Philyaw RB Oregon

7 234 Carlos Yancy DB Georgia

300718[/snapback]

 

thanks - that pats draft was great. as for the pack draft, it was very butler-like. i'll be honest -- i have no freakin' tolerance for the the ignorant yahoos who have a) no respect for butler despite the fact that he ran every draft in the golden years and was key to building a good SD team and b) buy into an exaggerated rep for donhoe (a solid guy who has so far failed with the bills) when contrary evidence stares them in the face.