Tiberius Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 39 minutes ago, Cugalabanza said: I happen to agree with you on this. It's a point I find myself making fairly regularly with left leaning friends who say we should do away with the electoral college. I mention "The Great Compromise" and nobody ever seems to know what I'm talking about. I often feel like I'm the only one who remembers that from social studies in middle school. Anyway, I appreciate the thinking of our founding fathers on this. It's a legit safeguard in a representative democracy. However, gerrymandering... that's where it kind of gets !@#$ed up. This one I'm not with you so much on. The "Thinking" on this was not in any way a universal, hence the compromise. The founders that thought population should determine representation had to give way to the smaller states who were either scared of the big states or just wanted more power than their populations would have given them. The small states just used their leverage to make the constitution even less democratic. 5 minutes ago, Cugalabanza said: I hear you. I think your points are valid. I differ in that I think the nation as a whole can withstand the broader diversity. I don't think any issue (or issues) is so split and essential that reasonable compromise cannot be found. The divisiveness and combativeness that we're experiencing now is mostly due to ****ty politics. You don't get off the plane in California and experience this overwhelming culture shock. I think people watch too much ****ty news. And I think way too much of the news is way too ****ty. And I think our politicians generally behave terribly. When we travel, when my kid plays with other kids, including families of different backgrounds, things are generally fine. People generally care about the same things. Politics tends to take relatively simple moral issues and confuse the hell out of them so that an absurd conclusion can be claimed to have been arrived at logically. If we concentrate our efforts, as citizens, on minimizing corruption and fraud in our government, I suspect many of the other problems will fall away. Texas is not that far behind California in diversity at all. California is just out in front on this changing demographics. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 23 minutes ago, Cugalabanza said: I hear you. I think your points are valid. I differ in that I think the nation as a whole can withstand the broader diversity. I don't think any issue (or issues) is so split and essential that reasonable compromise cannot be found. The divisiveness and combativeness that we're experiencing now is mostly due to ****ty politics. You don't get off the plane in California and experience this overwhelming culture shock. I think people watch too much ****ty news. And I think way too much of the news is way too ****ty. And I think our politicians generally behave terribly. When we travel, when my kid plays with other kids, including families of different backgrounds, things are generally fine. People generally care about the same things. Politics tends to take relatively simple moral issues and confuse the hell out of them so that an absurd conclusion can be claimed to have been arrived at logically. If we concentrate our efforts, as citizens, on minimizing corruption and fraud in our government, I suspect many of the other problems will fall away. Again, I'm not talking about culture in the way I believe you think I am. I am talking about core belief systems about the way people should live, and how they should be governed. People are people when they are at the bar having a drink, or when they are at the playground with their kids, but when they start talking about how we should live, and the proper role of government, it all falls apart. We are reaching the point of incompatibility of belief systems in ways that cannot be reconciled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cugalabanza Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Just now, TakeYouToTasker said: Again, I'm not talking about culture in the way I believe you think I am. I am talking about core belief systems about the way people should live, and how they should be governed. People are people when they are at the bar having a drink, or when they are at the playground with their kids, but when they start talking about how we should live, and the proper role of government, it all falls apart. We are reaching the point of incompatibility of belief systems in ways that cannot be reconciled. I do understand what you're talking about. I just don't think we're as different in that way as you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, Cugalabanza said: I do understand what you're talking about. I just don't think we're as different in that way as you do. Look at the political realities of the day. We're on the doorstep of civil war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Civil War!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 20 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: Look at the political realities of the day. We're on the doorstep of civil war. huh? people are going to march directly into automatic fire and take on bomber jets? t the first sign of blood will end anything by so-called civil war tough guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cugalabanza Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: Look at the political realities of the day. We're on the doorstep of civil war. The divisions are greatly exaggerated, in the press and on social media and in internet forums. If it comes to a civil war, it will be because of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fringe voices have been way too loud. These times right now are chaotic and loud and inflammatory, but the end is not yet. Edited April 9, 2018 by Cugalabanza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, Cugalabanza said: The divisions are greatly exaggerated, in the press and on social media and in internet forums. If it comes to a civil war, it will be because of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fringe voices have been way too loud. These times right now are chaotic and loud and inflammatory, but the end is not yet. Pickett's charge by SJW snowflakes who need a coloring book and plush toy because there was violence in Hamlet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Cugalabanza said: The divisions are greatly exaggerated, in the press and on social media and in internet forums. If it comes to a civil war, it will be because of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fringe voices have been way too loud. These times right now are chaotic and loud and inflammatory, but then end is not yet. I believe the division to be understated. The division exists between those who are politically active, which are the only voices that matter. Donald Trump is our President. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, Cugalabanza said: The divisions are greatly exaggerated, in the press and on social media and in internet forums. If it comes to a civil war, it will be because of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fringe voices have been way too loud. These times right now are chaotic and loud and inflammatory, but the end is not yet. You're correct...but it's important to remember that the march to the Civil War was largely driven by the fringe voices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cugalabanza Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 1 minute ago, TakeYouToTasker said: I believe the division to be understated. The division exists between those who are politically active, which are the only voices that matter. Donald Trump is our President. I'd say this civil war cry is coming from the ones who are politically hyper-active. Weren't you singing Trump's praises just the other day as a bold new under-appreciated savior? I think Trump's erratic behavior is part of the problem. It increases fear and anxiety, which tends to not bring out the best in people. 12 minutes ago, row_33 said: Pickett's charge by SJW snowflakes who need a coloring book and plush toy because there was violence in Hamlet? Thank you for your obtuse, confrontational non-contribution to the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 7 minutes ago, DC Tom said: You're correct...but it's important to remember that the march to the Civil War was largely driven by the fringe voices. Pro-slavery people were the fringe in 1860?? Maybe the abolitionist were, but not the free-soilers that elected Lincoln. My passion is history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Just now, Cugalabanza said: I'd say this civil war cry is coming from the ones who are politically hyper-active. Weren't you singing Trump's praises just the other day as a bold new under-appreciated savior? I think Trump's erratic behavior is part of the problem. It increases fear and anxiety, which tends to not bring out the best in people. What I said about President Trump was predictive. I believe there is mounting evidence that our government is being returned to The People as bad actors within our government, and those external of our government who pull the strings are being put down. I am convinced, that as the prosecution of these bad actors occurs, and what they were doing comes to light, that history will view President Trump as a great man. I also believe that his election was, in part, a rebuke of New York and California by "flyover country"; and that the response by people opposed to the President are demonstrating why we should no longer live together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Trump is a great man 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 I believe our turmoil is mainly caused by the improper relation of the states with the federal government. State's rights have fallen away at the same time that federal rights have taken a hit. For example, the federal government via of holding the purse strings has infringed on state's rights as far as it pertains to education, transportation and over reaching laws. The states or cities have usurped federal power with their decision to declare themselves sanctuaries. I think a return to the proper relation between the states and federal government would allow the proper order to once again be in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cugalabanza Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: What I said about President Trump was predictive. I believe there is mounting evidence that our government is being returned to The People as bad actors within our government, and those external of our government who pull the strings are being put down. I am convinced, that as the prosecution of these bad actors occurs, and what they were doing comes to light, that history will view President Trump as a great man. I also believe that his election was, in part, a rebuke of New York and California by "flyover country"; and that the response by people opposed to the President are demonstrating why we should no longer live together. I hope you're right about the worst individuals in government getting their comeuppance. Not only would it remove so much toxicity from the process, but it would set an awesome precedent and go far to make people feel empowered (sorry to use such a lefty sounding word ) that they can influence for good. Let me say: Thank you! for engaging with me lately. I really appreciate the good discussions. It usually doesn't go that way when I try to say what's on my mind here. Edited April 9, 2018 by Cugalabanza 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 22 minutes ago, Cugalabanza said: Thank you for your obtuse, confrontational non-contribution to the discussion. Passive aggressive dangling of Civil War is pointless and stupid. You want to have a Civil War, with bodies piled up like wood on farm and on the side of highways? Get a grip.... "i hope you're right" is the most kitty-ish passive aggressive way to end a discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cugalabanza Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Just now, row_33 said: Passive aggressive dangling of Civil War is pointless and stupid. You want to have a Civil War, with bodies piled up like wood on farm and on the side of highways? Get a grip.... I didn't dangle it. Were you paying attention at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, Cugalabanza said: I hope you're right about the worst individuals in government getting their comeuppance. Not only would it remove so much toxicity from the process, but it would set an awesome precedent and go far to make people feel empowered (sorry to use such a lefty sounding word) that they can influence for good. Let me say: Thank you! for engaging with me lately. I really appreciate the good discussions. It usually doesn't go that way when I try to say what's on my mind here. I appreciate the thoughtful discussion as well. We need more of that here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cugalabanza Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, row_33 said: "i hope you're right" is the most kitty-ish passive aggressive way to end a discussion. I see you edited to add this last part. That's one way of looking at it. Another way would be that people can have a conversation and end at a place where, while they don't agree on all points, they respect each other's position. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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