ExiledInIllinois Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 I don't have a dog in this fight, but this post is an example of someone who posts without any knowledge of context or history. Most airlines, certainly any who operate in the US judicial system, understand the massive liability involved in transporting minors. The definition of "minor" is made by judges and juries, not by somebody posting on a message board. The claim that "a 13 year old" can do it indicates ignorance of what happens every day, when delays are incurred because people from 1-100 cannot figure out how to make a connecting flight. Happens all the time. Cause delays every day. Making a reservation that includes a connection or an international entry with customs/immigration issues is a whole lot different that a domestic nonstop. Most refuse to take the reservation. This res was made through Air Canada, a member of United's Star Alliance group. Surely, someone from United could have been more sympathetic, but they have their rules, and they lose their job in a second by turning a minor loose on an international flight with a connection. Thanks... +100! It's society. Everybody pushing the envelope. Oh, what's the harm? I hear it everyday, nothing will happen. People are losing sight of the mechanisms in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Someone ruined it for the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 the kid was 15, I don't think he needs extra guidance. Every other airline Bills Fan M.Ds niece would have been just fine to fly alone and avoid the $150 fee. And maybe i am nuts, but I thnk a 13 year old is perfectly capable of reading/following signs that say "Bagge Claim/Exit/Ground Transportation". United did absolutely zilch for Bills Fan MD niece, and collected $150! Oh I agree (sort of) that a 15 yr old shouldn't need a babysitter but a call to inquire wouldn't have killed the parents. I would have told them for $150 I'd do a round trip to accompany him. As I posted in the link a 15 yr old kid pulled the emergency door upon landing. That cost more than $150 I bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 (edited) Someone ruined it for the rest of us. Exactly! "Why we can't have nice things in this family." My old man would say... Yeah, because you phu*ked up too Dad, pushed all the available envelopes. I think he would agree now. Edited August 5, 2017 by ExiledInIllinois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 (edited) But you did make some sort of prearrangement no? This other kids parents may not have. Absolutely. The requirements were made known at time of booking and, as noted, there are additional charges. They reconfirmed everything and rechecked ID's at both ends of trip. I thought it was handled very professionally. They also treated her like 'first class.' She got all the food etc she wanted. I just saw plenzmd's comment. Yeah...the 150 was definitely a rip but at least they were very strict with security etc. Much, obviously, depends on the competence of the 'minor' involved. Edited August 5, 2017 by BillsFanM.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 I don't have a dog in this fight, but this post is an example of someone who posts without any knowledge of context or history. Most airlines, certainly any who operate in the US judicial system, understand the massive liability involved in transporting minors. The definition of "minor" is made by judges and juries, not by somebody posting on a message board. The claim that "a 13 year old" can do it indicates ignorance of what happens every day, when delays are incurred because people from 1-100 cannot figure out how to make a connecting flight. Happens all the time. Cause delays every day. Making a reservation that includes a connection or an international entry with customs/immigration issues is a whole lot different that a domestic nonstop. Most refuse to take the reservation. This res was made through Air Canada, a member of United's Star Alliance group. Surely, someone from United could have been more sympathetic, but they have their rules, and they lose their job in a second by turning a minor loose on an international flight with a connection. First, I did a poor job of explaining my position. United was 100% within their rights to deny boarding, that is their rule that someone needs to be 16 to fly alone. My only complaint was that United makes the number 16..that is the joke. This was Air Candas mess to fix, they issued the ticket knowing full well the age of the passenger. And as far as context, I proly have more context on this than most.My kids have flown alone several times well under the age of 16, and this United policy has nothing to do with safety or the kids being "minors", it has to do with them looking to collect fees for doing little to nothing. Take a gander at Southwest "young Traveler " policy...kids as young as 12 do not need to be accompanied as long as they are not dolts..and SW takes no responsibility if a flight is delayed, canceled etc. https://www.southwest.com/html/customer-service/family/young-travelers.html And just as a point of reference, I am a very frequent flyer who things most fees like luggage fees, better seats etc are 100% justified...just not this asinine rule that a 15 year cant find his way around an airport...rubbish. And we wonder why this kids grow up coddled. Crimminy, my just turned 16-year-old is a counselor at camp for 8-year-olds and responsible for teaching them to sail, but 3 months ago United would have said he was too dumb to read a sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 (edited) First, I did a poor job of explaining my position. United was 100% within their rights to deny boarding, that is their rule that someone needs to be 16 to fly alone. My only complaint was that United makes the number 16..that is the joke. This was Air Candas mess to fix, they issued the ticket knowing full well the age of the passenger. And as far as context, I proly have more context on this than most.My kids have flown alone several times well under the age of 16, and this United policy has nothing to do with safety or the kids being "minors", it has to do with them looking to collect fees for doing little to nothing. Take a gander at Southwest "young Traveler " policy...kids as young as 12 do not need to be accompanied as long as they are not dolts..and SW takes no responsibility if a flight is delayed, canceled etc. https://www.southwest.com/html/customer-service/family/young-travelers.html And just as a point of reference, I am a very frequent flyer who things most fees like luggage fees, better seats etc are 100% justified...just not this asinine rule that a 15 year cant find his way around an airport...rubbish. And we wonder why this kids grow up coddled. Crimminy, my just turned 16-year-old is a counselor at camp for 8-year-olds and responsible for teaching them to sail, but 3 months ago United would have said he was too dumb to read a sign. They have 5 year olds declaring that they're transgender, and 26 year olds who can't be trusted to get their own health insurance. Every number is subjective. The law says 18 years old, so United is trusting 16 and 17 year olds to behave themselves (They don't have to.. ). Obviously they are losing customers to Airlines who's policy goes younger, but I bet there is an economic reason to not matching the age. (probably insurance related). Now, we can discuss whether the price for this "supervision" is reasonable. How much does a babysitter cost? Edited August 5, 2017 by unbillievable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 They have 5 year olds declaring that they're transgender, and 26 year olds who can't be trusted to get their own health insurance. Every number is subjective. The law says 18 years old, so United is trusting 16 and 17 year olds to behave themselves (They don't have to.. ). Obviously they are losing customers to Airlines who's policy goes younger, but I bet there is an economic reason to not matching the age. (probably insurance related). Now, we can discuss whether the price for this "supervision" is reasonable. How much does a babysitter cost? 15 is cut off for adult passport. Under 15 & it is renewed every 5 years. Over 15, it is every 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 They have 5 year olds declaring that they're transgender, and 26 year olds who can't be trusted to get their own health insurance. Every number is subjective. The law says 18 years old, so United is trusting 16 and 17 year olds to behave themselves (They don't have to.. ). Obviously they are losing customers to Airlines who's policy goes younger, but I bet there is an economic reason to not matching the age. (probably insurance related). Now, we can discuss whether the price for this "supervision" is reasonable. How much does a babysitter cost? Ha...$5 is too freaking much! Now, what law you be referring to? My kids have flown alone, taken Uber alone, taken trains alone, taken subways and buses alone proly starting at about age 13...and i don't believe I have broken any laws! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 First, I did a poor job of explaining my position. United was 100% within their rights to deny boarding, that is their rule that someone needs to be 16 to fly alone. My only complaint was that United makes the number 16..that is the joke. This was Air Candas mess to fix, they issued the ticket knowing full well the age of the passenger. And as far as context, I proly have more context on this than most.My kids have flown alone several times well under the age of 16, and this United policy has nothing to do with safety or the kids being "minors", it has to do with them looking to collect fees for doing little to nothing. Take a gander at Southwest "young Traveler " policy...kids as young as 12 do not need to be accompanied as long as they are not dolts..and SW takes no responsibility if a flight is delayed, canceled etc. https://www.southwest.com/html/customer-service/family/young-travelers.html And just as a point of reference, I am a very frequent flyer who things most fees like luggage fees, better seats etc are 100% justified...just not this asinine rule that a 15 year cant find his way around an airport...rubbish. And we wonder why this kids grow up coddled. Crimminy, my just turned 16-year-old is a counselor at camp for 8-year-olds and responsible for teaching them to sail, but 3 months ago United would have said he was too dumb to read a sign. And this is exactly what I was referring to when I mentioned your post contained no information and no context. Your example, Southwest, does not allow connections for the example you suggest. This was not only a connection, it was an international flight requiring customs/immigration issues, and a connection. So...You bring up an example that would never happen because your example does not permit it. Regarding your 16 year old, and how talented he/she might be, I would be happy to hear you use that defense in a lawsuit, and there have been many, rand have cost the airlines millions. You may not be aware of this, in fact I'm quite sure you aren't, but there are people who do this intentionally, looking to settle out of court. Airlines have programs to defend themselves against this. Lawsuits are an industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 (edited) And this is exactly what I was referring to when I mentioned your post contained no information and no context. Your example, Southwest, does not allow connections for the example you suggest. This was not only a connection, it was an international flight requiring customs/immigration issues, and a connection. So...You bring up an example that would never happen because your example does not permit it. Regarding your 16 year old, and how talented he/she might be, I would be happy to hear you use that defense in a lawsuit, and there have been many, rand have cost the airlines millions. You may not be aware of this, in fact I'm quite sure you aren't, but there are people who do this intentionally, looking to settle out of court. Airlines have programs to defend themselves against this. Lawsuits are an industry. Okay...so my context of saying " i did a poor job of explaining my position" did not register I guess. I guess my saying " United was 100% within their rights in their situation to deny boarding, and this was Air Canadas mess to fix" did not register. So I will try again, My position is that United requires kids to be 16 to fly alone, while most others airlines require younger ages. And that is 100% the airlines choice, it's their business, and they can decide what their position is relative to risk, customer revenue, and brand loyalty/impacts. . Again, no one is requiring anyone to fly United..it is their fee, and if you choose to fly United, you agree to this policy and fee. My position is that requiring a fee for a 15-year-old is purely a way to drive revenue..has nothing to do with safety or the law. Take a gander at unaccompanied minor policies..they are all over the board. When booking flights for kids, these fees absolutely go into consideration, along with price and schedule. I know, I have done the process several times over the last 4 years or so. But wow...$150 !!!!...WOWZER. Even if you believe that a 15-year-old needs someone to help him find his seat, ..that is outrageous. Most likely a big reason why my kids have never flown on United. And I never said my kids were talented, as long time posters here would know my thoughts can be quite the opposite LOL...but they can read freaking signs, have cell phones, and can make decisions like any other kid their age can. My rant is more that for the most part, we choose now as a society to believe kids are always in "stranger danger" and the world is a scary place and that kids today just can't make the same decisions as kids 20, 30, 50 years ago did. All in an age where kids are connected better than ever through cell phones, social media etc, are better educated about risks and how to deal with them, and when traveling carry a credit card and know how to use them well!!!!. End of rant! Edited August 6, 2017 by plenzmd1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 Unfortunately, your "rant" would not be a successful defense in a lawsuit, and that is what drives this policy, not the relative intelligence and maturity of a 13/14/15/ year old, which varies dramatically. You are correct in your claim that unaccompanied minor rules for each airline are easily accessible, and intentionally so. That's why your Southwest example is so easy to dispute. They don't allow connections for unaccompanied minors They would have never taken this reservation. And again, people of all ages constantly do not make connections regardless of all the information and announcements. It happens every day and results in countless delays and is not specific to any age. The difference is that for adults, the carrier assumes no liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 again..for the third time..did I ever say at anytime United did anything wrong here in this particular case????? United did not take this reservation either...Air Canada did(their partner airline btw)..that's why I stated 2 times Air Canada's mess to fix! In terms of carrier assuming liability and winning /losing lawsuits..here are some different Contracts of Carriages for different airlines. Even after paying this fee, airlines take no financial or guardianship responsibilities(at least these two). Others may have differing contracts of carriage, these were just the first that popped u in the google search. Spirit Airlines will not assume any financial or guardianship responsibilities for an unaccompanied child beyond those applicable to an adult customer. In addition, Spirit Airlines will not assume any liability for any out-of-pocket expenses incurred by the adult transporting the unaccompanied minor from the airport in the event of a delay and/or flight cancellation. 5.2.8. Gate Passes and Handling Procedures for Unaccompanied Mi Unaccompanied Minor Service means that Delta will provide supervision for the child from the time of boarding until the child is met at the stop over point or destination. Delta will assume no financial or guardianship responsibilities for unaccompanied children beyond those applicable to an adult passenger. and this from the Department of Transporation..https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.dev/files/docs/Kids_Fly_Alone.pdf There are no Department of Transportation regulations concerning travel by these “unaccompanied minors,” but the airlines have specific procedures to protect the well-being of youngsters flying by themselves. T again, this is a subjective area that each carrier decides how to handle based on the risk of litigation, customer loyalty etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 It doesn't matter what disclaimer a carrier publishes, and they all have them. No published disclaimer protects a carrier from negligence, and negligence is a subjective matter decided by a third party. What generally happens in these cases is that the carrier decides whether is easier to pay someone off or defend its behavior in the legal system, and often times it may be completely innocent of negligence, but deems it not financially worth the effort. It isn't the 15 year old's fault that he/she is considered an unaccompanied minor by a particular airline. It is the result of years threatened lawsuits and a lot of expense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Crimminy, my just turned 16-year-old is a counselor at camp for 8-year-olds and responsible for teaching them to sail, but 3 months ago United would have said he was too dumb to read a sign. Just watch out for the power lines: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/08/07/two-boy-scouts-dead-third-clings-life-after-sailing-tragedy/544314001/ These 16/17, taking the 11 year old out, were Eagle Scouts too. Such a sad story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Man, that's awful. Surprised no one had ever figured out that could be an issue, unless i missed that in the article somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) Man, that's awful. Surprised no one had ever figured out that could be an issue, unless i missed that in the article somewhere. That is what I am wondering!!! I may have caught it was a Corps lake. I didn't research it or hear anything through work channels, still early. Simply wow! Jamboree, last one @ AP Hill was marred w/an electrocution. Adult leader and tent poles, or something hitting transmission lines. How is that boat sailing there and not accounting for its "air draft!" Edited August 8, 2017 by ExiledInIllinois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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