FireChan Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I just think the whole "14 games" thing is misleading. It is the number one talking point thrown around by EJ dreamers. He only got to play in 14 games because a) he had a horror show of an offseason in his second season and then b) lost his job to an aging veteran who ending up sucking himself but was still viewed as giving them a better chance to win than Manuel. Otherwise he'd have played in more games. And his three injuries, which aren't necessarily all his fault, but certainly aren't good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I just think the whole "14 games" thing is misleading. It is the number one talking point thrown around by EJ dreamers. He only got to play in 14 games because a) he had a horror show of an offseason in his second season and then b) lost his job to an aging veteran who ending up sucking himself but was still viewed as giving them a better chance to win than Manuel. Otherwise he'd have played in more games. To each their own on opinion. IMO EJ had a stunted rookie year, due to injuries and coaching problems. I agree he had a couple bad games in his second year, but also had a couple good games as well. Kyle started off much better, but then as the season went on started to have similar struggles. In the end, both QBs performed similarly in the Marrone/Hackett systems (note: similar, not the same, KO did out play EJ, not arguing that). I understand why they went with KO, they were doing everything they could to get to the playoffs. I still think EJ hasn't had enough time to fully show us what he's capable of. I think what he does this off season/pre season, and regular season will give us a much more reasonable idea. Which is why I support him being in the competition for the starting spot. And yes, I'll give him the advantage due to familiarity with the team, youth, and raw talent. He's shown enough bright spots, has a fair record considering circumstances, and the fact that he has a positive TD/INT ratio, a good head on his shoulders, and physical talent gives him another shot in my eyes. By no means do I guarantee his success. But I also don't see any of the available QBs out there to be far better than him. If you're going to go into a season with a mediocre/bad QB, you might as well play the one who has the most upside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 So then yes that means McCown can be a starter, right? That is what people are saying about EJ in your poll. It is by no means an endorsement of his abilities. Geno Smith can be certainly be the Jets' starter this year, right? Hey let me ask you this: Let's say that we we're both at the same Bills game one time and happened to be tailgating next to each other. And we got to talking about the Bills- "The defense sure looks great, huh?" "Cheers to that!" "How bout that catch Watkins made! That was awesome!" "Man Mario sure turned out to be worth that contract! How would've thought?" Maybe I toss you a cold one and we're buddies, right? And then you ask me, "So what do you think about EJ Manuel? Think he's got what it takes?" And then I said, "I don't know man. He seems like a great kid- I liked the pick at the time and I'm really pulling for him but man, from what I've seen so far, my gut is telling me that I just don't think he's got what it takes." Would you immediately turn off the music, point your finger in my face and start yelling "HATER! HATER! Guys get over here. Lookey what we got here, an EJ hater..." Ya know it's OK for people who have been watching football for a long time and seen lots of quarterbacks come and go to opine that they don't believe a certain QB is going to develop into a franchise QB. Is that fair enough? I just think the whole "14 games" thing is misleading. It is the number one talking point thrown around by EJ dreamers. He only got to play in 14 games because a) he had a horror show of an offseason in his second season and then b) lost his job to an aging veteran who ending up sucking himself but was still viewed as giving them a better chance to win than Manuel. Otherwise he'd have played in more games. I like you as a poster metz....but, as I have a diff view of EJ, I'm kind of getting tired of reading the EJ dreamer line (this is about the 10th time I've seen it). Practice what you preach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I like you as a poster metz....but, as I have a diff view of EJ, I'm kind of getting tired of reading the EJ dreamer line (this is about the 10th time I've seen it). Practice what you preach. Ha. I started using that only in retaliation to being labeled a "hater." I saw someone else use it first and I decided I was going to run with it. I wouldn't use the term supporter because I certainly support EJ in his quest to becoming a legitimate NFL QB as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Ha. I started using that only in retaliation to being labeled a "hater." I saw someone else use it first and I decided I was going to run with it. I wouldn't use the term supporter because I certainly support EJ in his quest to becoming a legitimate NFL QB as well. Fair enough...I was just pointing it out and it goes both ways. Either way...I know where you stand and you know my thoughts. That said, we'll both be rooting for any QB the Bills run out there; and it certainly will be fun to look back at this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Fair enough...I was just pointing it out and it goes both ways. Either way...I know where you stand and you know my thoughts. That said, we'll both be rooting for any QB the Bills run out there; and it certainly will be fun to look back at this. Agreed! As I've stated numerous times, nothing would make me happier than for EJ to develop into a franchise QB. Obviously, I'm a huge Bills fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Agreed! As I've stated numerous times, nothing would make me happier than for EJ to develop into a franchise QB. Obviously, I'm a huge Bills fan. Doug? I knew it was a real EJ hater! I kid...I kid. Go Bills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) To each their own on opinion. IMO EJ had a stunted rookie year, due to injuries and coaching problems. I agree he had a couple bad games in his second year, but also had a couple good games as well. Kyle started off much better, but then as the season went on started to have similar struggles. In the end, both QBs performed similarly in the Marrone/Hackett systems (note: similar, not the same, KO did out play EJ, not arguing that). I understand why they went with KO, they were doing everything they could to get to the playoffs. I still think EJ hasn't had enough time to fully show us what he's capable of. I think what he does this off season/pre season, and regular season will give us a much more reasonable idea. Which is why I support him being in the competition for the starting spot. And yes, I'll give him the advantage due to familiarity with the team, youth, and raw talent. He's shown enough bright spots, has a fair record considering circumstances, and the fact that he has a positive TD/INT ratio, a good head on his shoulders, and physical talent gives him another shot in my eyes. By no means do I guarantee his success. But I also don't see any of the available QBs out there to be far better than him. If you're going to go into a season with a mediocre/bad QB, you might as well play the one who has the most upside. I think that people forget major progress was derailed by huge Chandler and Johnson fumbles in the Toronto game in his first season. The Bills were 4-7 heading into that game against the Falcons and on two occasions deep into the game, EJ threw a clutch pass to Johnson which he fumbled and then Manuel came back and threw a clutch pass to Chandler which he fumbled. If either one of them hold onto the ball the Bills win that game and go 5-7 and they probably go on to beat the Bucs, Jags and Dolphins to get to 8-7 heading into the Patriots game. I think people forget that Manuel did play well in the Bears and Dolphin games to open the season this year. Was Manuel ever going to be a QB that takes over an offense? Um no. Because that's what the Bills needed in the Charger and Texan game. The Bills running game went in the tank after that Dolphin game. People can call them excuses, but I think that Manuel should have never been expected to be an Aaron Rogers or a Steve Young type. He's a guy who may be in the Joe Flacco mold of being a good enough when you have a great defense and running game. Is EJ as accurate as Flacco? No, but Flacco doesn't have the athleticism of Manuel either. However, Manuel has shown the ability of being clutch in close games just like a Joe Flacco. Besides his clutch play in a few of his NFL games, he had also won 4 college bowl games and was the MVP in the Senior Bowl, those are clutch situations he came through in. I suggest everyone go and look at Flacco's stats his rookie season and compare them to Manuel's total stats of 14 games. There is not much difference. Don't write him off so fast Bills fans. Let's see what he brings this year under Roman. Edited March 2, 2015 by 1billsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I think that people forget major progress was derailed by huge Chandler and Johnson fumbles in the Toronto game in his first season. The Bills were 4-7 heading into that game against the Falcons and on two occasions deep into the game, EJ threw a clutch pass to Johnson which he fumbled and then Manuel came back and threw a clutch pass to Chandler which he fumbled. If either one of them hold onto the ball the Bills win that game and go 5-7 and they probably go on to beat the Bucs, Jags and Dolphins to get to 8-7 heading into the Patriots game. I think people forget that Manuel did play well in the Bears and Dolphin games to open the season this year. Was Manuel ever going to be a QB that takes over an offense? Um no. Because that's what the Bills needed in the Charger and Texan game. The Bills running game went in the tank after that Dolphin game. People can call them excuses, but I think that Manuel should have never been expected to be an Aaron Rogers or a Steve Young type. He's a guy who may be in the Joe Flacco mold of being a good enough when you have a great defense and running game. Is EJ as accurate as Flacco? No, but Flacco doesn't have the athleticism of Manuel either. However, Manuel has shown the ability of being clutch in close games just like a Joe Flacco. Besides his clutch play in a few of his NFL games, he had also won 4 college bowl games and was the MVP in the Senior Bowl, those are clutch situations he came through in. I suggest everyone go and look at Flacco's stats his rookie season and compare them to Manuel's total stats of 14 games. There is not much difference. Don't write him off so fast Bills fans. Let's see what he brings this year under Roman. I agree that he looked good in the Atlanta game- in fact I've stated before that was the best he's looked to me as a pro. But to concede that EJ is never going to be a guy who takes control of an offense- coming from an EJ supporter- I think is a little disconcerting. I agree with that sentiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I agree that he looked good in the Atlanta game- in fact I've stated before that was the best he's looked to me as a pro. But to concede that EJ is never going to be a guy who takes control of an offense- coming from an EJ supporter- I think is a little disconcerting. I agree with that sentiment. The goal is to win a Superbowl, not who has the best looking QB stats. If EJ does have that "clutch" gene then this team does have a possibility of winning a Superbowl with him as long as they would have a great defense and running game to support him. Because he simply isn't one of those BIG numbers QBs. I have no idea what he's going to do this year, but I can see the possibilities. Geez, remember who the QB was the Giants beat us with? I think that's the team we have and EJ may be just the right fit if he can consistently perform in the clutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The goal is to win a Superbowl, not who has the best looking QB stats. If EJ does have that "clutch" gene then this team does have a possibility of winning a Superbowl with him as long as they would have a great defense and running game to support him. Because he simply isn't one of those BIG numbers QBs. I have no idea what he's going to do this year, but I can see the possibilities. Geez, remember who the QB was the Giants beat us with? I think that's the team we have and EJ may be just the right fit if he can consistently perform in the clutch. Most QB's who win the Superbowl do so by playing at a very high level. Flacco and Eli both played lights out when they won. I'll be shocked if a Trent Dilfer type QB ever wins a Superbowl again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 I just think the whole "14 games" thing is misleading. It is the number one talking point thrown around by EJ dreamers. He only got to play in 14 games because a) he had a horror show of an offseason in his second season and then b) lost his job to an aging veteran who ending up sucking himself but was still viewed as giving them a better chance to win than Manuel. Otherwise he'd have played in more games. see that is where you are incorrect sir. It means a lot. In a hurry up offense even a Franchise QB would take a few games to get into the swing of things. 10 games in a fast paced PRO offense led by a rookie followed with 4 games in a different O year 2 and then dropped flat because Doug Marrone NEVER had the intention of starting him on the premise that he wanted EJ to learn by sitting!!! If he was 14 games into his career, and there were no sure free agent improvements, I'd certainly be invested in seeing if he can develop or not. That was my point earlier, but it got shot down *shrugs* Fact is, everyone available to us in FA is about the same level as EJ. Locker is the closest in terms of youth/possible upside. So everyone clamoring for EJ to be cut, or stomping their feet that he sucks, is just gonna have to deal with it, so to speak. The most logical solution is to bring in a couple guys, have them fight it out in camp, and if it's at all close, you develop the young guy with the most upside. If he develops over the course of the year, awesome. If he doesn't, then you go back to the drawing board the next offseason. BRAVO!!!!! So then yes that means McCown can be a starter, right? That is what people are saying about EJ in your poll. It is by no means an endorsement of his abilities. Geno Smith can be certainly be the Jets' starter this year, right? Hey let me ask you this: Let's say that we we're both at the same Bills game one time and happened to be tailgating next to each other. And we got to talking about the Bills- "The defense sure looks great, huh?" "Cheers to that!" "How bout that catch Watkins made! That was awesome!" "Man Mario sure turned out to be worth that contract! How would've thought?" Maybe I toss you a cold one and we're buddies, right? And then you ask me, "So what do you think about EJ Manuel? Think he's got what it takes?" And then I said, "I don't know man. He seems like a great kid- I liked the pick at the time and I'm really pulling for him but man, from what I've seen so far, my gut is telling me that I just don't think he's got what it takes." Would you immediately turn off the music, point your finger in my face and start yelling "HATER! HATER! Guys get over here. Lookey what we got here, an EJ hater..." Ya know it's OK for people who have been watching football for a long time and seen lots of quarterbacks come and go to opine that they don't believe a certain QB is going to develop into a franchise QB. Is that fair enough? Twist, turn and muddy the waters, Instead of just lashing out at me think about it. McCown can be a starter in Cleveland because Johnny Football is in rehab!!! The Brownies have no other option!!! Buffalo does. this is precious ..... You'd LOVE to see EJ succeed and become a franchise player BUT you don't want him on the field! So how in the hell can he do that when you are championing every other FA QB to replace him!!!???? /rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 Most QB's who win the Superbowl do so by playing at a very high level. Flacco and Eli both played lights out when they won. I'll be shocked if a Trent Dilfer type QB ever wins a Superbowl again. not just Trent, you can also add - Brad Johnson, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams ?????? prepare to be shocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 not just Trent, you can also add - Brad Johnson, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams ?????? prepare to be shocked. Again, all from the pre-Dilfer era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuoteTheRaven83 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 The dude needs to play the full 16 games. I'll make my judgement after this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Better OC, improved line, a new playmaker in McCoy... my confidence is rising that EJ can get it done... they're doing a good job of building up around the QB position right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) Again, all from the pre-Dilfer era. 1) that is relevant how??? - 2) stopping with Dilfer is an attempt to minimize the big picture and 3) I'm sorry I didn't see you mention specifics WRT a timeline or are you just trolling for a reaction ? The dude needs to play the full 16 games. I'll make my judgement after this season. that's all I am asking. (and others who have not given up hope) Better OC, improved line, a new playmaker in McCoy... my confidence is rising that EJ can get it done... they're doing a good job of building up around the QB position right now. see Shankchez in 2009 (only w/o 21 INT's) and 2010 it is looking better Edited March 4, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 1) that is relevant how??? - 2) stopping with Dilfer is an attempt to minimize the big picture and 3) I'm sorry I didn't see you mention specifics WRT a timeline or are you just trolling for a reaction ? that's all I am asking. (and others who have not given up hope) see Shankchez in 2009 (only w/o 21 INT's) and 2010 it is looking better What you said is irrelevant. I said, "I doubt we see a Dilfer type QB win a Super Bowl again." Again implies post-Dilfer. You listed names of QB's before Dilfer in an attempt to prove something. I'm not sure what. Then you called me a troll. All in all, a standard post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) 1) that is relevant how??? - 2) stopping with Dilfer is an attempt to minimize the big picture and 3) I'm sorry I didn't see you mention specifics WRT a timeline or are you just trolling for a reaction ? that's all I am asking. (and others who have not given up hope) see Shankchez in 2009 (only w/o 21 INT's) and 2010 it is looking up You love to make fun of other QB's, don't you? Trent Dilfer showed more in this league than EJ has or probably will even without his Super Bowl ring. Listen, this will all be over soon. When EJ loses out on the starting job to either Locker or the QB they take at 50, what are you going to say then? Are you going to call the new coaching staff morons for passing over on EJ even though he will have shown no improvement in the offseason again? He will still have his "only 14 games" thing intact so you can keep saying that to everyone. And then when Locker isn't that good either are you gonna start "I told you so" threads, complaining that EJ should've been the starter even though Locker was clearly better all camp and preseason? At some point the guy has to show us something. And does everyone need a dumb nickname? Shankchez? He was better last year than Manuel has ever been. Did you watch the game on Thanksgiving? One thing we can all agree on is that "Womanuel" better be prepared come springtime because he is gonna be on a short leash. Rex wants to win right now. Edited March 4, 2015 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Most QB's who win the Superbowl do so by playing at a very high level. Flacco and Eli both played lights out when they won. I'll be shocked if a Trent Dilfer type QB ever wins a Superbowl again. Brad Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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