Orton is mediocre

[rfk]

Come on man, EJ threw to WRs before they made their break too.

 

I totally support Kyle in as the starter, but we don't have to make up stuff about EJ.

 

Right he consistently threw behind the receiver like they practiced...catch the defense sleeping

[FireChan]

 

 

A. Where's the evidence of any development. This isn't Madden franchise mode. Your QB doesn't necessarily get better just by playing.

 

B. Games, the season, potential playoff run, the locker room, Sunday afternoons, potential FA who don't want to play on a team that can't score. Shall I go on?

 

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure Marrone purchased the "Extra Player Experience Points" package this offseason.

[Rob's House]

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure Marrone purchased the "Extra Player Experience Points" package this offseason.

 

I think Orton stole it out of EJ's locker.

[Orton's Arm]

I have to admit there were some surprises in this thread. Take the strip sack for example. When I watched the play, it was obvious that Glenn blocked the defender for only a brief, brief moment before he lumbered on past. I've seen Hall of Fame quarterbacks take blindside sacks just like the one Orton took. I've seen them get the ball stripped away, just like happened to Orton.

 

We complain when the refs use one set of standards for enforcing the rules against the Patriots, and a completely different set when enforcing rules against the Bills. But many in this thread are guilty of the exact same thing. They blamed the quarterback for the strip sack because it was Kyle Orton, but would have blamed the left tackle had it been a Hall of Fame quarterback getting sacked and stripped. Attributing credit or blame on a play should be about the play itself; not about the reputations players had going into the play.

 

There is the argument that Orton should have gotten the ball out quicker. That would be true if this was a West Coast offense. The 49ers' standard issue play involved Joe Montana taking a three step drop, then throwing a quick slant to Jerry Rice. The bread and butter play of this offense does not involve Kyle Orton taking a three step drop, then throwing a quick slant to Sammy Watkins. That just isn't the offense we have. If Orton chose to get rid of the ball quickly on every play, the result would be a lot of dump-offs to RBs. No different than the offense we would have had with Trent Edwards or EJ Manuel. But if we want to get the wide receivers involved in the game, the quarterback has to hold onto the ball a bit longer.

 

The other anti-Orton argument is that he should have sensed the pressure, and gotten rid of the ball quickly on that particular play. But basic football 101 is that the defense puts its best pass rusher at RDE, because the QB is most vulnerable from his blindside. The offense puts its best, most highly paid offensive lineman at LT to counter this threat. But in the rush to blame Orton for everything wrong with this offense, this basic football knowledge has been completely cast aside. People are acting like Orton is the only NFL quarterback with a blindside. As if all other NFL quarterbacks had eyes mounted on long stalks--like crabs' eyes.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Orton's Arm

[Rob's House]

 

They blamed the quarterback for the strip sack because it was Kyle Orton, but would have blamed the left tackle had it been a Hall of Fame quarterback EJ Manuel getting sacked and stripped.

 

fixed

[Orton's Arm]

Let's say there was an offensive lineman for the Crimson Tide. A guy who didn't play all that well in college. But you liked his physical tools, so you labeled him a "project" and used a second round pick on him. Then let's say this RT plays poorly in practice, and played poorly in preseason. Should you ignore the poor play and give him a starting position anyway, in an effort to help your second round project develop?

 

Now let's say you scouted a quarterback at Florida State. His accuracy was questionable, especially when throwing to moving targets. He didn't make more than one read. He tended to throw only to receivers who were ridiculously wide open. He ran a simplified offense. His own coach said he probably wasn't more than a third or fourth round talent. But you were desperate for a quarterback and liked his physical tools. So you labeled him a "project" and used a first round pick on him. This QB plays poorly in practice and in the preseason. Should you award him a starting spot anyway in an effort to help the project develop?

[Max997]

Orton is mediocre

 

Is this news?

[FireChan]

Let's say there was an offensive lineman for the Crimson Tide. A guy who didn't play all that well in college. But you liked his physical tools, so you labeled him a "project" and used a second round pick on him. Then let's say this RT plays poorly in practice, and played poorly in preseason. Should you ignore the poor play and give him a starting position anyway, in an effort to help your second round project develop?

 

Now let's say you scouted a quarterback at Florida State. His accuracy was questionable, especially when throwing to moving targets. He didn't make more than one read. He tended to throw only to receivers who were ridiculously wide open. He ran a simplified offense. His own coach said he probably wasn't more than a third or fourth round talent. But you were desperate for a quarterback and liked his physical tools. So you labeled him a "project" and used a first round pick on him. This QB plays poorly in practice and in the preseason. Should you award him a starting spot anyway in an effort to help the project develop?

 

That depends. Does he "look the part?"

[C-Man]

Orton will be the QB for the next two years.

[bobobonators]

I have to admit there were some surprises in this thread. Take the strip sack for example. When I watched the play, it was obvious that Glenn blocked the defender for only a brief, brief moment before he lumbered on past. I've seen Hall of Fame quarterbacks take blindside sacks just like the one Orton took. I've seen them get the ball stripped away, just like happened to Orton.

 

We complain when the refs use one set of standards for enforcing the rules against the Patriots, and a completely different set when enforcing rules against the Bills. But many in this thread are guilty of the exact same thing. They blamed the quarterback for the strip sack because it was Kyle Orton, but would have blamed the left tackle had it been a Hall of Fame quarterback getting sacked and stripped. Attributing credit or blame on a play should be about the play itself; not about the reputations players had going into the play.

 

There is the argument that Orton should have gotten the ball out quicker. That would be true if this was a West Coast offense. The 49ers' standard issue play involved Joe Montana taking a three step drop, then throwing a quick slant to Jerry Rice. The bread and butter play of this offense does not involve Kyle Orton taking a three step drop, then throwing a quick slant to Sammy Watkins. That just isn't the offense we have. If Orton chose to get rid of the ball quickly on every play, the result would be a lot of dump-offs to RBs. No different than the offense we would have had with Trent Edwards or EJ Manuel. But if we want to get the wide receivers involved in the game, the quarterback has to hold onto the ball a bit longer.

 

The other anti-Orton argument is that he should have sensed the pressure, and gotten rid of the ball quickly on that particular play. But basic football 101 is that the defense puts its best pass rusher at RDE, because the QB is most vulnerable from his blindside. The offense puts its best, most highly paid offensive lineman at LT to counter this threat. But in the rush to blame Orton for everything wrong with this offense, this basic football knowledge has been completely cast aside. People are acting like Orton is the only NFL quarterback with a blindside. As if all other NFL quarterbacks had eyes mounted on long stalks--like crabs' eyes.

 

Well said.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

I don't know, man. Shouldn't we sign him to a long-term extension and then see if he isn't a world-beater?

a Fitz. redo Give him $40M + and watch him FAIL fast

 

Come on man, EJ threw to WRs before they made their break too.

 

I totally support Kyle in as the starter, but we don't have to make up stuff about EJ.

Well said.

 

But when they did he got 7/8 not 3. If you get down there 8 times and only get FGs then you are at 24 vs getting down there 4 times and picking up 7(8) which is 28(or more) and that is the difference. The fact you are talking about that as if it is bad to convert before the team gets there just silly and a different topic.

 

Also, to your second point, teams knew if you take the running game away the team can not throw with EJ in there. That was evident by how he performed in the Houston game. Now that is not the case if the running game is not there Orton can move the ball with his arm.

 

 

607/2=303.5 ypg If you are going to argue against him at least use the correct facts to make your argument. We get it you hate Orton and would rather lose with EJ then win with Orton.

I agree the running game needs work but if your don't have either your team is in bad shape, which is what the Houston game should show you.

The Texans HAVE a very good defense, so please explain how the HORRID Cheatriots D did better than JJ Watt and company!!!!

 

And No >> I don't hate Orton,<< you and the others assume too much.

 

I just don't think he's better than EJ in the long run. EJ needs to learn now so the Bills know weather to start looking again for a QB and not 2 years from now.

 

Re hating Orton >> If you want proof. Look back (archives) a few months and you will see where I asked the board How about Orton when the Cowboys dumped him.

 

I doubt anyone made a comment then, yet now ..... hoo boy !!!

Edited October 15, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[Hplarrm]

Sometimes yes (the last two Manuel starts) and sometimes no (the first two EJ starts). EJ was a PROJECT when drafted and remains a PROJECT. The Bills had to raft aQB in the 1st in 2013 and only he and Geno were worth a first. It simply remains too early to have panicked. Will EJ ever be Payton Manning? No. Will h ever be Brad Johnson? Maybe yes. He cannot wi ohis own but then again both have 1 SB to their credit.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

a Fitz. redo Give him $40M + and watch him FAIL fast

 

Well said.

 

The Texans HAVE a very good defense, so please explain how the HORRID Cheatriots D did better than JJ Watt and company!!!!

 

And No >> I don't hate Orton,<< you and the others assume too much.

 

I just don't think he's better than EJ in the long run. EJ needs to learn now so the Bills know weather to start looking again for a QB and not 2 years from now.

 

Re hating Orton >> If you want proof. Look back (archives) a few months and you will see where I asked the board How about Orton when the Cowboys dumped him.

 

I doubt anyone made a comment then, yet now ..... hoo boy !!!

 

I think this coaching staff had a plan for EJ and they never got to implement it. You and others say he has to play but that was never the thought processes of the staff originally. You complain that Hackett is terrible but want EJ out there playing under those horrible conditions when he can learn more from Orton(watching him play and asking questions) than being sacrificed to Hackett play calling.

 

So, you are basically stating you wanted Orton then and are now complaining about him?

 

What exactly is it that you want to happen? Either you want the team to succeed or you do not. Right now, Orton, like it or not, is what will make the happen. In long run you may be right; however, the team needs to start winning and EJ doesn't need that pressure too. Let Orton take on that burden.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

I think this coaching staff had a plan for EJ and they never got to implement it. You and others say he has to play but that was never the thought processes of the staff originally. You complain that Hackett is terrible but want EJ out there playing under those horrible conditions when he can learn more from Orton(watching him play and asking questions) than being sacrificed to Hackett play calling.

 

So, you are basically stating you wanted Orton then and are now complaining about him?

 

What exactly is it that you want to happen? Either you want the team to succeed or you do not. Right now, Orton, like it or not, is what will make the happen. In long run you may be right; however, the team needs to start winning and EJ doesn't need that pressure too. Let Orton take on that burden.

careful with all of those you's you are posting. you made a few assumptions

 

I want to see / know if EJ can succeed now because I know KO isn't the long term answer.

 

> I don't think I've posted much about play calling (other than rotating 3 RB's) and I highly doubt I used Hackett's name outside of a quote

 

I said I don't mind KO as a backup. there is a big difference there.

Edited October 15, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[FireChan]

careful with all of those you's you are posting. you made a few assumptions

 

I want to see if EJ can succeed now because I know KO isn't the long term answer.

 

> I don't think I've posted much about play calling (other than rotating 3 RB's) and I highly doubt I used Hackett's name outside of a quote

 

I said I don't mind KO as a backup. there is a big difference there.

 

I think EJ can't succeed now.

[bobobonators]

 

 

I think EJ can't succeed now.

 

After 14 starts I feel EJ is not done. So he sits a year or so. It's not the end of the world.

[C.Biscuit97]

After 14 starts I feel EJ is not done. So he sits a year or so. It's not the end of the world.

 

I somewhat agree with that. But my major problem is the coaches who used a 1st round pick on him giving up on him after 14 games. They are a huge part of the problem. He had 2 decent games and 2 bad games. QBs have bad games, especially young ones. Kyle Orton had a lot of terrible games early on. http://www.nfl.com/player/kyleorton/2506444/gamelogs?season=2005 He threw 5 ints in one game!

 

This coaching staff has no backbone. And we are going to be stuck at the end of the year wondering about EJ and trying to start over again. It sucks.

[FireChan]

 

 

I somewhat agree with that. But my major problem is the coaches who used a 1st round pick on him giving up on him after 14 games. They are a huge part of the problem. He had 2 decent games and 2 bad games. QBs have bad games, especially young ones. Kyle Orton had a lot of terrible games early on. http://www.nfl.com/player/kyleorton/2506444/gamelogs?season=2005 He threw 5 ints in one game!

 

This coaching staff has no backbone. And we are going to be stuck at the end of the year wondering about EJ and trying to start over again. It sucks.

 

Nah. Even if EJ started the whole year, he wasn't gonna prove anything definitively. Next year is gonna be an open competition.

[bobobonators]

 

 

I somewhat agree with that. But my major problem is the coaches who used a 1st round pick on him giving up on him after 14 games. They are a huge part of the problem. He had 2 decent games and 2 bad games. QBs have bad games, especially young ones. Kyle Orton had a lot of terrible games early on. http://www.nfl.com/player/kyleorton/2506444/gamelogs?season=2005 He threw 5 ints in one game!

 

This coaching staff has no backbone. And we are going to be stuck at the end of the year wondering about EJ and trying to start over again. It sucks.

 

In an ideal world we probably would've been better off keeping Fitz for an extra year or so and having EJ watch from the bench his first season (IMO). EJ never had competition his first season and was essentially given the starting gig. He played OK last season, but he never really had games where you thought "damn, I'm excited for next season b/c this guy has given us flashes of brilliance"; it was more like "EJ was OK but he definitely needs to take a step forward this season". Through 4 games that step forward didn't happen. In fact you can argue that he took a step back. A step back from just OK is bad. Add in the change in ownership and everyone in the front office/coaching staff probably went into a panic b/c their jobs may very well be on the line this season.

 

As for the coaching staff (marrone) not having a backbone, I see where you're coming from. But at the same time, we've been hearing all season that the talent is here, NOW. Not next season, but now. So the change to Orton shouldn't be that much of a surprise. If the organization feels this team has the talent in place to make a run for a wild card, then make the move and forget about EJ's feelings/psyche. It's certainly cliché, but if EJ can't handle being benched, then he probably won't be able to handle the ups/downs of the NFL very long anyway.

 

cliche * was the word I was trying to use, not sure why it did that "clich&eacute"

[C.Biscuit97]

In an ideal world we probably would've been better off keeping Fitz for an extra year or so and having EJ watch from the bench his first season (IMO). EJ never had competition his first season and was essentially given the starting gig. He played OK last season, but he never really had games where you thought "damn, I'm excited for next season b/c this guy has given us flashes of brilliance"; it was more like "EJ was OK but he definitely needs to take a step forward this season". Through 4 games that step forward didn't happen. In fact you can argue that he took a step back. A step back from just OK is bad. Add in the change in ownership and everyone in the front office/coaching staff probably went into a panic b/c their jobs may very well be on the line this season.

 

As for the coaching staff (marrone) not having a backbone, I see where you're coming from. But at the same time, we've been hearing all season that the talent is here, NOW. Not next season, but now. So the change to Orton shouldn't be that much of a surprise. If the organization feels this team has the talent in place to make a run for a wild card, then make the move and forget about EJ's feelings/psyche. It's certainly cliché, but if EJ can't handle being benched, then he probably won't be able to handle the ups/downs of the NFL very long anyway.

 

cliche * was the word I was trying to use, not sure why it did that "clich&eacute"

 

I generally agree with all of this. EJ did have 112 qb rating in the preseason though. But Fitz would have be the perfect mentor. Not having a QB coach and leaving it up to Hackett is such a joke.

 

Again, if EJ was failing with a respected NFL offensive mind, it's one thing. But given that the oline and SPiller are all regressing under Hackett, I have a ton of questions. Is there a worst OC in the NFL than Hackett?