Why draft a LOT to play ROT?

[thebandit27]

 

 

Just out of curiosity, did you actually watch Williams play last year?

 

I hated the signing at first too then I watched all of the Rams game from last year including All-22 and he wasn't as bad as people think.

 

If you watched all-22, then you're already more reliable than PFF, whose graders don't do so; they use TV broadcasts, and admittedly don't always identify the correct players (I know, I'm a charlatan for saying such things).

 

I watched Williams' All-22 as well; I would say he's an average guard. Better than Legursky for sure...and I can't imagine he won't improve playing between Wood and Glenn as opposed to the Rams' duo who--while good players in their own right--are clearly on the decline.

 

[NewEra]

Bills should trade down to 14 or 15 pick up an extra 2nd. Draft Dix, Williams or Ebron whomever is still there. If all gone, trade down again another 4 or 5 spots. Then go after a guy like Martin for RT. Use the 2 2nd round picks for TE and WR. 3rd and 4 round safety and LB.

 

Draft Dix? Seriously? I think he should be a 2nd round pick and 3rd-4th safety drafted. He's a complete liability in coverage. I almost view him as a weaker version of donte.

[chris heff]

I did watch him some, and like the Bills own RG Kraig Urbik, he played well in some games. Like I said, he looked like Legursky, in that he could hold down the position to a degree.

 

Want a comparison?

 

Williams started all 16 games at left guard for the Rams last year, allowing five sacks, eight quarterback hits and 28 quarterback hurries.

 

Doug Legursky and Colin Brown shared duty through the year, combining to allow three sacks, 11 quarterback hits and 31 hurries.

 

 

The difference between an elite player and a "sometimes" solid player is when those big games on going on the elite players step up, and the "sometimes" solid players fall on their faces. Anyone else remember what that Bills O line looked like against the Saints, the Steelers, the Bucs, and the first game against the Jets, the last game against the Patriots?

 

 

Sports Illustrated did a review of the Williams signing,

 

"Grade: D. Williams has never lived up to his athletic potential, though that’s partially due to the sub-par coaching he received in Chicago. He gets pushed around too easily at any line position, and he’s not consistent when asked to stop pass-rushers at the point of attack. The Rams line was a mixed bag last season, and Williams was at least a bastion of consistency, but not much more. If the Bills are serious about competing in the AFC East sooner than later, they’ll need to develop Williams in ways other coaches have not been able to."

 

http://nfl.si.com/2014/03/12/chris-williams-deal-buffalo-bills/

 

Now, judging by the way this coaching staff was able to coach up Colin Brown and Sam Young...

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/120269/bills-taking-odd-risk-in-signing-williams

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/recent/nfl/4722/chris-williams

 

In 2010 Buddy Nix brought in- RT Cornell Green at 2 mill per, a player who was also cut after week six....sound familiar? This team has its own unique way of evaluating O line free agents.

So Mike Rodak and Doug Farrar don't like him and Polian grades him as a B.

[thebandit27]

 

So Mike Rodak and Doug Farrar don't like him and Polian grades him as a B.

 

Yeah, but Polian is only a Superbowl winning GM, while Rodak writes articles & PFF employs guys nobody has ever heard of...what's the problem?

[thewildrabbit]

So Mike Rodak and Doug Farrar don't like him and Polian grades him as a B.

Polian is now an announcer for ESPN, and no longer a GM. Anyway, He also graded Donald Brown as a B+..., and had Bethea ranked higher then Byrd.

 

I can find more people who have posted their thoughts on the Chris Williams signing if you like, and almost all have negative comments about the player. I find it humorous that some fans quote PFF all the time, and yet demean them when it doesn't suit their argument.

 

 

My entire point to this is that this team simply doesn't place a high value on O line players. Refute the fact that the team tried to replace Levitre with Colin Brown, Sam Young, and then the backup center in Doug Legursky. That all those players made the line far worse.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Here's an answer: It's cheaper than trying to re-sign a stud LT.

[CookieG]

I did watch him some, and like the Bills own RG Kraig Urbik, he played well in some games. Like I said, he looked like Legursky, in that he could hold down the position to a degree.

 

Want a comparison?

 

Williams started all 16 games at left guard for the Rams last year, allowing five sacks, eight quarterback hits and 28 quarterback hurries.

 

Doug Legursky and Colin Brown shared duty through the year, combining to allow three sacks, 11 quarterback hits and 31 hurries.

 

 

The difference between an elite player and a "sometimes" solid player is when those big games on going on the elite players step up, and the "sometimes" solid players fall on their faces. Anyone else remember what that Bills O line looked like against the Saints, the Steelers, the Bucs, and the first game against the Jets, the last game against the Patriots?

 

 

Sports Illustrated did a review of the Williams signing,

 

"Grade: D. Williams has never lived up to his athletic potential, though that’s partially due to the sub-par coaching he received in Chicago. He gets pushed around too easily at any line position, and he’s not consistent when asked to stop pass-rushers at the point of attack. The Rams line was a mixed bag last season, and Williams was at least a bastion of consistency, but not much more. If the Bills are serious about competing in the AFC East sooner than later, they’ll need to develop Williams in ways other coaches have not been able to."

 

http://nfl.si.com/20...-buffalo-bills/

 

Now, judging by the way this coaching staff was able to coach up Colin Brown and Sam Young...

 

http://espn.go.com/b...igning-williams

 

http://www.rotoworld.../chris-williams

 

In 2010 Buddy Nix brought in- RT Cornell Green at 2 mill per, a player who was also cut after week six....sound familiar? This team has its own unique way of evaluating O line free agents.

 

Man, I'd hate to tell you what Levitre gave up in 2012.

 

1 sack

3 hits

7 hurries

 

http://blogs.buffalobills.com/tag/andy-levitre/

 

So it goes like this...

 

Levitre wasn't worth the money because he wasn't a stud and no more than above average. Ok..

 

He's replaced by a duo that gives 5 sacks to his 1..and a whopping 24 more hurries

 

Who are then replaced by a guy that gave up 5 sacks to Levitre's 1 and who gave up a whopping 21 more hurries...a guy who is deemed "average" by some.

 

If that's average..I'd hate to see below average.

[chris heff]

Polian is now an announcer for ESPN, and no longer a GM. Anyway, He also graded Donald Brown as a B+..., and had Bethea ranked higher then Byrd.

 

I can find more people who have posted their thoughts on the Chris Williams signing if you like, and almost all have negative comments about the player. I find it humorous that some fans quote PFF all the time, and yet demean them when it doesn't suit their argument.

 

 

My entire point to this is that this team simply doesn't place a high value on O line players. Refute the fact that the team tried to replace Levitre with Colin Brown, Sam Young, and then the backup center in Doug Legursky. That all those players made the line far worse.

Rodak and Farrar aren't even announcers nor have they ever held any position with any NFL team.

 

I agree they had no plan to replace Levitre.

 

Williams has got to better than three guys you mentioned, and I still think they draft someone.

[thebandit27]

 

 

Man, I'd hate to tell you what Levitre gave up in 2012.

 

1 sack

3 hits

7 hurries

 

http://blogs.buffalobills.com/tag/andy-levitre/

 

So it goes like this...

 

Levitre wasn't worth the money because he wasn't a stud and no more than above average. Ok..

 

He's replaced by a duo that gives 5 sacks to his 1..and a whopping 24 more hurries

 

Who are then replaced by a guy that gave up 5 sacks to Levitre's 1 and who gave up a whopping 21 more hurries...a guy who is deemed "average" by some.

 

If that's average..I'd hate to see below average.

 

It's context man.

 

Assigning grades to OLmen based on assumptions doesn't mean much to me.

 

Tell me how great the Titans O was running and throwing behind Andy the Great.

 

It sounds as though you've made your decision about Williams based solely on some unofficial stats; I'd strongly encourage you to find a way to check out NFL Game Rewind and see for yourself.

 

It's much safer than relying on someone else's interpretation.

 

And yes, Andy Levitre was wildly overpaid by Tennessee.

[CookieG]

 

My entire point to this is that this team simply doesn't place a high value on O line players. Refute the fact that the team tried to replace Levitre with Colin Brown, Sam Young, and then the backup center in Doug Legursky. That all those players made the line far worse.

 

Does that fact really need to be refuted?

 

The Bills' have been the anti Ozzie Newsome for more than a decade. Anyone not realizing that...hasn't been paying attention.

 

 

It would fine if they actually found these late round gems that everyone seems to think are so easy to acquire. But its been 10 years now since they found anyone below the 2nd round who was worth spit. You'd have to go back to Jonas Jennings, 13 years ago..to find someone taken as low as the 3rd round who was worth anything.

 

If you can get them later..where have they been?

2 in 13 years is pretty pathetic for getting people from "anywhere". Other teams might...Buffalo has proven repeatedly and beyond any doubt that they can.

 

The only real question is whether Whaley is actually going to change anything. We'll see.

[thebandit27]

 

 

Does that fact really need to be refuted?

 

The Bills' have been the anti Ozzie Newsome for more than a decade. Anyone not realizing that...hasn't been paying attention.

 

 

It would fine if they actually found these late round gems that everyone seems to think are so easy to acquire. But its been 10 years now since they found anyone below the 2nd round who was worth spit. You'd have to go back to Jonas Jennings, 13 years ago..to find someone taken as low as the 3rd round who was worth anything.

 

If you can get them later..where have they been?

2 in 13 years is pretty pathetic for getting people from "anywhere". Other teams might...Buffalo has proven repeatedly and beyond any doubt that they can.

 

The only real question is whether Whaley is actually going to change anything. We'll see.

 

Ozzie drafts BPA religiously...he has an OL that currently comprised of a guy they traded mid round picks for, 2 2nd rounders, a 4th rounder, and an UDFA

[maryland-bills-fan]

If he pllays RT well for 3 years without playing LT hes not going to get paid elite money to play LT.

You are right that he would not get top 5 LOT money for that. Remember that the highest paid ROT would be #13 on the list at LOT. If he plays well for 3 years, there will be a lot of film on him at the pro level. He will not be a happy camper. He will probably go elsewhere and get maybe #7 or so LOT money and insist on a one year contract. Then he will go looking for top 5 money. IN ANY CASE, he will be out of Buffalo as soon as he can and we will have wasted a first round pick and have to use another high draft pick to replace him. The revolving door starts all over again. I think we could draft the ROT in the range #20 to #60 and pay him $4M or so he is a bookend on the o-line for a decade and one of the best ROT in the league during that time.

[CookieG]

It's context man.

 

Assigning grades to OLmen based on assumptions doesn't mean much to me.

 

Tell me how great the Titans O was running and throwing behind Andy the Great.

 

It sounds as though you've made your decision about Williams based solely on some unofficial stats; I'd strongly encourage you to find a way to check out NFL Game Rewind and see for yourself.

 

It's much safer than relying on someone else's interpretation.

 

And yes, Andy Levitre was wildly overpaid by Tennessee.

 

uh huh...

 

the context is...some are better at pass blocking than others. It is a football fact of life.

 

I've watched Levtire enough over the years...and more than enough of Legursky and Colin Brown..to know what the differences are.. and that reading those stats confirmed what I already knew by watching them.

 

"not in the same league" is a phrase that comes to mind.

 

If you ever put an interior offensive lineman on an island...Levitre was it.. The dude never got help..because he didn't need it. 95% of the time..Wood would move to his right and help Urbik. And despite not getting help and being left on interior island..he gave up an extraordinary little amount of pressure.

 

Legursky isn't really too bad of a run blocker, IMO..but his pass blocking is well below average. It might be his lack of height and consequent loss of leverage, but he gets beat quite a bit after initial contact. His protection basically holds up for a second or two. That might be cool with some...but that a second or two of protection is really not good. Colin Brown was just beyond bad.

 

People can watch all of the tape they want, but if they can't tell the difference between good and bad..it really doesn't matter.

 

So yes, it is a matter of context, I guess.

[maryland-bills-fan]

simple question to ask: If, God forbid, cordy gets hurt, what do the bills do? if the answer is 'we hope that hairston is healthy or try pears', does that inspire any confidence?

 

i say, bpa. if matthews, once considered a top 3 pick, falls to nine that would be fantastic. if not, evans or ebron would be alright.

What do we do if both running backs get hurt? What do we do if EJ and Lewis go down? What do we do if .... The first thing in rebuilding is to get good starters at all positions or at least adequate starters. Then go after depth. If we lack good starters and are getting beat every game with our "A" team out there, I don't care hearing about how such a plan got us good backups at positions where we had a good guy. The weak links are where you lose games.

[thewildrabbit]

Does that fact really need to be refuted?

 

The Bills' have been the anti Ozzie Newsome for more than a decade. Anyone not realizing that...hasn't been paying attention.

 

 

It would fine if they actually found these late round gems that everyone seems to think are so easy to acquire. But its been 10 years now since they found anyone below the 2nd round who was worth spit. You'd have to go back to Jonas Jennings, 13 years ago..to find someone taken as low as the 3rd round who was worth anything.

 

If you can get them later..where have they been?

2 in 13 years is pretty pathetic for getting people from "anywhere". Other teams might...Buffalo has proven repeatedly and beyond any doubt that they can.

 

The only real question is whether Whaley is actually going to change anything. We'll see.

Exactly, and finally some sound reasoning. but alas, as so many other fans here simply don't see things this way.

 

We will need to wait and see this years draft. But I'm not anticipating them drafting an OT at any point because of the past history, as I mentioned earlier.

 

I was hoping Whaley was different from Nix in regards to the line. but Colin Brown, Sam Young, and more importantly when he actually had full power to change things, and didn't with the Legursky signing. Now, that signing might not be that big a deal to others as he is only slated to be a backup. But then realize what could happen should Eric Wood suffer an early season ending injury, as Legursky grades as a really bad blocker in every facet.

 

uh huh...

 

the context is...some are better at pass blocking than others. It is a football fact of life.

 

I've watched Levtire enough over the years...and more than enough of Legursky and Colin Brown..to know what the differences are.. and that reading those stats confirmed what I already knew by watching them.

 

"not in the same league" is a phrase that comes to mind.

 

If you ever put an interior offensive lineman on an island...Levitre was it.. The dude never got help..because he didn't need it. 95% of the time..Wood would move to his right and help Urbik. And despite not getting help and being left on interior island..he gave up an extraordinary little amount of pressure.

 

Legursky isn't really too bad of a run blocker, IMO..but his pass blocking is well below average. It might be his lack of height and consequent loss of leverage, but he gets beat quite a bit after initial contact. His protection basically holds up for a second or two. That might be cool with some...but that a second or two of protection is really not good. Colin Brown was just beyond bad.

 

People can watch all of the tape they want, but if they can't tell the difference between good and bad..it really doesn't matter.

 

So yes, it is a matter of context, I guess.

Thank you, more sound reasoning, and better then I've explained.

 

All we fans can do is wait for the draft, and hope.

[maryland-bills-fan]

Thats the thing which may or may not add value. Matthews and Robinson you have a player who can move over if need and be solid.

Where o where is Hairstons health report ?

I like a team that has a butt-kicking offensive line. I would love to have Matthrews or Robinson (who I'm guessing might be well above average LOT's) playing ROT for the Bills.---- If I didn't have to balance that wish off against how else we could use that draft position to improve the Bills. I mean, those guys would be super on the right side and we would have bookend o-tackles,,, for 2-3 years maybe. ...... Imagine what other teams would give up to have drafted Robinson or Matthrews to solve their LOT problem......Imagine what other teams would give up to have drafted Robinson or Matthrews to solve their LOT problem......Imagine what other teams would give up to have drafted Robinson or Matthrews to solve their LOT problem.....................Get the idea. ......... We could use the luck of one of these falling to our #9 slot to get draft picks to get much more in total for the Bills. We could possibly get the top ROT and the top OG in the draft and fix those positions with guys who could be top 5 at the position for a decade. .... As well as maybe a 2nd or 3rd round pick in the 2015 draft. Nailing down a couple of positions for 7-10 years with superior players is how you build from a bottom dweller to a consistent contender. Edited March 22, 2014 by maryland-bills-fan

[3rdand12]

I know that the talk has turned Williams and the Bills philosophy in regard to O line.

So does Buffalo trade out of nine to a team that direly needs a LT when either Robinson or Matthews are still available ?

I think you have to take one of them . Lewan not so much .

But Bills need a tackle and guard in the draft . When is the issue for me.

[CookieG]

Ozzie drafts BPA religiously...he has an OL that currently comprised of a guy they traded mid round picks for, 2 2nd rounders, a 4th rounder, and an UDFA

 

Ozzie had to dismantle half of his SB team for cap reasons. Last year, he lost his veteran center to retirement and his 2 OT's to laziness.

 

 

the year before,,,when they won the SB...they looked like this

 

LT- former Pro Bowl selection (with motivational problems)

LG- 2nd round pick

C- veteran and former 6 time pro bowler

RG- 3rd round pick, Pro Bowler...had been given a contract for 6.5 million a year (you don't pay a guard that type of money!)

RT- 1st round pick (you don't draft a RT tackle in the 1st round!)

 

Since 2005, while replenishiing his offensive line (that had been always far superior to anything Buffalo fielded), he used 8 picks in rounds 1-3 on the OL;

 

Buffalo...while "rebuilding" its OL since at least 2005...has used 3; they are down to 2...

 

When the cap wouldn't let him pay both of his guards 6.5 million a year, he used a 2nd round pick as a replacement.

 

Buffalo used a garbage dumpster run to replace its guard.

 

When he was losing his center Jason Brown to FA riches, he was replaced with a pro bowl center.

 

When the Bills traded their pro bowl tackle, he was replaced with 7th round pick Demetrius (Demetruss) Bell. It took 3 years to draft Cordy Glenn.

 

Ozzie..the anti-Bills philosophy.

[CSBill]

Consider this, good tackles can be found in the 2nd round as well . . . wasn't our current left tackle, whom we all agree, "is pretty good" (good enough that even these top 10 pick tackles would not displace him), was a second round pick?

 

I say, draft the playmaker: Ebron or one of the top WRs, and get your RT in the 2nd or 3rd.

 

Thats the thing which may or may not add value. Matthews and Robinson you have a player who can move over if need and be solid.

Where o where is Hairstons health report ?

 

This too, is what I'd like to know. If Hairston is available, I think that gives the Bills more room to draft a potential play maker at 9.

 

I really think that Hairston's conditions is the wildcard in all this. If he's healthy and ready to go this season, the Bills drafting options are much better.

Edited March 22, 2014 by CSBill

[CookieG]

Exactly, and finally some sound reasoning. but alas, as so many other fans here simply don't see things this way.

 

We will need to wait and see this years draft. But I'm not anticipating them drafting an OT at any point because of the past history, as I mentioned earlier.

 

I was hoping Whaley was different from Nix in regards to the line. but Colin Brown, Sam Young, and more importantly when he actually had full power to change things, and didn't with the Legursky signing. Now, that signing might not be that big a deal to others as he is only slated to be a backup. But then realize what could happen should Eric Wood suffer an early season ending injury, as Legursky grades as a really bad blocker in every facet.

 

Thank you, more sound reasoning, and better then I've explained.

 

All we fans can do is wait for the draft, and hope.

 

It is what you said before, it seems to me to be a matter of attitude, a matter of priorities.

 

Ozzie, who puts far more into maintaining his Oline than the Bills do building theirs...never seems satisfied. the Bills replace their best lineman with some dumpster fodder, say things like "oh, I really like the way things are shaping up"

 

I really hope he's playing possum. But we'll see.