Buffalo Bills 2002 Draft

[bflo83]

wanna see something funny?

 

april 17, 2000

 

peter king's draft grade -- B plus (5th best)

"Buffalo. Pick 89 overall, Corey Moore, will be one of those classic Bills picks (they always get a very good player after the first round, every year), the kind of player GMs will regret passing on. "

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Let's take a look at that 2000 draft class:

1. Erik Flowers

2. Tavares Tillman

3. Corey Moore

4. Avion Black

5. Sammy Morris (the only quality pick of the litter and a special teamer/back up at best)

6. Leif Larsen

7a. Drew Haddad

7b. DaShon Polk

 

Ooh-fah! Makes the 2002 class look like an A by comparison!

[MRW]

Let's take a look at that 2000 draft class:

1. Erik Flowers

2. Tavares Tillman

3. Corey Moore

4. Avion Black

5. Sammy Morris (the only quality pick of the litter and a special teamer/back up at best)

6. Leif Larsen

7a. Drew Haddad

7b. DaShon Polk

 

Ooh-fah! Makes the 2002 class look like an A by comparison! 

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Actually I think Sammy Morris was a pretty good pick as a fifth-rounder and we got some decent mileage out of Polk IMO.

 

The rest though - I still remember those days of waiting for Leif Larsen to develop into a football player.

[Pete]

Let's take a look at that 2000 draft class:

1. Erik Flowers

2. Tavares Tillman

3. Corey Moore

4. Avion Black

5. Sammy Morris (the only quality pick of the litter and a special teamer/back up at best)

6. Leif Larsen

7a. Drew Haddad

7b. DaShon Polk

 

Ooh-fah! Makes the 2002 class look like an A by comparison! 

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2000 was one of the weaker drafts in memory. There were a few great players-Arrinton, Urlacher, Peterson, a couple others, but there was no depth at all. Noone had a real strong draft besides the Jets.

[Pete]

http://www.allsports.com/cgi-bin/nfldraft.cgi?round=3

2002 was another weak class too. 2000 had more top players in it and neither draft had depth. TD wanted to trade down but there were no suitors. Reed most considered a #1 pick. He was unbeleivable in college and seemed like great value. I am not ready to give up on Josh yet

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Reed has been jerked around to some degree by Bill's too. He had a very good rookie year playing essensially the slot all year. Then his second year, the Bill's dump PP and decide to move Reed outside as a wide out. In hindsight, bad move! Then this season, they again started him outside, and then after Lee Evens came on strong, he gets the starting role, so they cut Shaw and move Reed back to the slot. Then Reed gets hurt and misses a month.

 

I'd like to see the Bill's give reed this entire upcoming year to concentrate on nothing but the slot, through mini camps, pre-season, practices, everything, just slot. Then see how he does by year end. If he doesn't get his hands back, then I agree too, label him a bust. But really hate to give up on him quite yet.

 

Give him one more year!

[San-O]

Reed has been jerked around to some degree by Bill's too.  He had a very good rookie year playing essensially the slot all year.  Then his second year, the Bill's dump PP and decide to move Reed outside as a wide out.  In hindsight, bad move!  Then this season, they again started him outside, and then after Lee Evens came on strong, he gets the starting role, so they cut Shaw and move Reed back to the slot.  Then Reed gets hurt and misses a month. 

 

I'd like to see the Bill's give reed this entire upcoming year to concentrate on nothing but the slot, through mini camps, pre-season, practices, everything, just slot. Then see how he does by year end.  If he doesn't get his hands back, then I agree too, label him a bust.  But really hate to give up on him quite yet.

 

Give him one more year!

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I don't know. This was his 3rd year. He had 16 catches all year, and I bet

about half as many drops.

[Pete]

Reed has been jerked around to some degree by Bill's too.  He had a very good rookie year playing essensially the slot all year.  Then his second year, the Bill's dump PP and decide to move Reed outside as a wide out.  In hindsight, bad move!  Then this season, they again started him outside, and then after Lee Evens came on strong, he gets the starting role, so they cut Shaw and move Reed back to the slot.  Then Reed gets hurt and misses a month. 

 

I'd like to see the Bill's give reed this entire upcoming year to concentrate on nothing but the slot, through mini camps, pre-season, practices, everything, just slot. Then see how he does by year end.  If he doesn't get his hands back, then I agree too, label him a bust.  But really hate to give up on him quite yet.

 

Give him one more year!

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Reed belongs in the slot. I watched the kid in college and he is a great open field runner. He has moves but not speed. He is tough too and can make the tough catch. I am very disappointed in his play last year but concur that he has been jerked around. IMO Buffalo is lethal at the wideout position with Moulds and Evans on the outside and Reed working the slot. 2005 is time for Reed to put up though

[cashfruit]

ferguson was a good fullback at va tech. theres 2 guys up there to keep, williams and thomas. the rest, well...they suck.

[KnightRider]

I don't know.  This was his 3rd year.  He had 16 catches all year, and I bet

about half as many drops.

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Basically, he looked extremely promising in his rookie year. He played out of position last year. He was hurt this year. When Moulds plays hurt, he doesn't look that great either. Maybe we should cut him, too.

 

If he doesn't show anything this year, then maybe he won't make it. I think he will be fine.

[San-O]

Basically, he looked extremely promising in his rookie year.  He played out of position last year.  He was hurt this year. When Moulds plays hurt, he doesn't look that great either.  Maybe we should cut him, too.

 

If he doesn't show anything this year, then maybe he won't make it.  I think he will be fine.

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He appeared in twelve games and had 16 catches. Were his hands injured?

[Brandon]

I don't know.  This was his 3rd year.  He had 16 catches all year, and I bet

about half as many drops.

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The official number was six drops, I believe. In my opinion, dropped passes are the one thing that is inexcusable in a WR. If a WR can't catch, what good is he?

 

I think Reed has an uphill fight to stay on the roster. He was on the verge of losing the #3 job late this past season to Sam Aiken, a player the Bills seem to like a lot. Given that Freddie Smith will probably be retained as a return man, Reed could find himself in a lot of trouble if the Bills bring in a mid round draft pick at the position to compete for the last couple of roster spots. In the end, my guess is that Reed is going to need an impressive training camp in order to make the final 53 this season.

[KnightRider]

He appeared in twelve games and had 16 catches.  Were his hands injured?

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I will use Moulds as an example- Moulds 2003 Game by Game Stats

 

In the first 5 games he had 30 catches for 457 yards. Then he got hurt in OT in the Cinci game. He missed 3 of the remaining games, and in the other 8 games he had 34 for 323 yards. Remember, this is a Probowl WR who was Drew's #1 target and had played the same position for 7 years... These guys come back hurt...

 

Moulds had trouble getting a grip on the ball early in his career. You might remember Beebe had a hard time catching the ball the first few years.

 

If Aiken turns out better, then fine. But you don't cut a player who showed a lot of promise as a rookie, got shuffled to a new position, and then got hurt.

 

Brandon, they've taken a lot of WRs during TD's tenure. I suspect while there may be a FA or two signed, I doubt one will be drafted...

[2003Contenders]

Looking back, I think part of the gidiness about the 2002 draft was the acquisition of Drew Bledsoe -- and that the Bills managed to get him WITHOUT having to give up a draft pick THAT year.

 

While I know that DB's time in Buffalo has been mostly bad, there is no denying that his presence in 2002 brought INSTANT credibility to the team. Without that, I doubt that we attract the likes of Takeo and Big Sam via free agency. Also, without Bledsoe, Price's value does not get inflated and we don't obtain a 1st rounder for him via the Franchise Tag. Thus, while it is arguable that the specific trade for Bledsoe was a good one, I think that the related benefits I mentioned above would have to label it as such, thereby improving TD's 2002 draft grade.

 

And, if Mike Williams continues to improve and Josh Reed remembers what he used to do in college, we MAY actually look back on it is a rather GOOD draft.

[Ray]

Looking back, I think part of the gidiness about the 2002 draft was the acquisition of Drew Bledsoe -- and that the Bills managed to get him WITHOUT having to give up a draft pick THAT year.

 

While I know that DB's time in Buffalo has been mostly bad, there is no denying that his presence in 2002 brought INSTANT credibility to the team. Without that, I doubt that we attract the likes of Takeo and Big Sam via free agency. Also, without Bledsoe, Price's value does not get inflated and we don't obtain a 1st rounder for him via the Franchise Tag. Thus, while it is arguable that the specific trade for Bledsoe was a good one, I think that the related benefits I mentioned above would have to label it as such, thereby improving TD's 2002 draft grade.

 

And, if Mike Williams continues to improve and Josh Reed remembers what he used to do in college, we MAY actually look back on it is a rather GOOD draft.

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Contenders is right. I'd still wait to judge that draft. If MW makes the pro bowl this year and Reed comes back and plays well then the draft is a success. We did get DB who was a pro bowl QB that year. I know he is quite mediocre now but he did give the fan base something to be passionate about again after coming off the awful Flutie/Johnson years and the 3-13 Johnson experiement. Not a great draft but not as bad as you make it sound. 2000 was a horrendous draft by any standard! It helped kill this franchise for a few years.

[ajzepp]

All I know is that if (and yes, I mean IF) Losman ends up being at least a good, solid NFL starter, there will be no room to criticize TD for his drafting. Stud RB, stud WR, and (potential) stud QB.......in two years, he will have given us a completely revamped offense at the skill positions that could end up taking us 5-10 years down the road........But as glad as I am to see evidence that Bledsoe's days are numbered, Losman needs to show all of us something pretty quickly. I'm rooting for him, and I really think he's going to be a good one.......but allllllllllll that pre-draft strutting he was doing needs to translate into quality play as the Buffalo Bills starting QB.

[KnightRider]

While I'd love to see Pace in a Bills uniform, I would not be surprised if Williams moves to LT next season... This of course assumes that there will be no more personal problems...

 

As for DB coming to Buffalo, I wholeheartedly agree. Not only did he attract players, but he attracted fans, too. Where TD seems to be genius is the marketing. I don't see Buffalo heading for greener pastures now the way I did in the days just prior to Flutie starting in 98... From moving camp to Rochester, to Drew to TS, to WM, to LE and JPL, he has done a great job in stimulating interest in the Bills...

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Looking back, I think part of the gidiness about the 2002 draft was the acquisition of Drew Bledsoe -- and that the Bills managed to get him WITHOUT having to give up a draft pick THAT year.

 

While I know that DB's time in Buffalo has been mostly bad, there is no denying that his presence in 2002 brought INSTANT credibility to the team. Without that, I doubt that we attract the likes of Takeo and Big Sam via free agency. Also, without Bledsoe, Price's value does not get inflated and we don't obtain a 1st rounder for him via the Franchise Tag. Thus, while it is arguable that the specific trade for Bledsoe was a good one, I think that the related benefits I mentioned above would have to label it as such, thereby improving TD's 2002 draft grade.

 

And, if Mike Williams continues to improve and Josh Reed remembers what he used to do in college, we MAY actually look back on it is a rather GOOD draft.

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I generally agree in that I think some folks seem to be more motivated by their desire to prove or win their point (as if there is really anything to win by winning an argument here) that by even showing remotely some outside perspective in assessing the TD or Bledsoe situations.

 

In general I think folks are too caught up in thinking the draft is some type of outstandingly valuable thing, when quite frankly it is just another tool which sometimes gives valuable resources which work out. but actually more often than not gives you nothing but heartbreak. This is not a bad thing. It just is.

 

Like it or not, I think we fans, outside observers, and TD can look back at the 2002 draft which really only will be pretty honestly open to more true rather than less true assessment after next season (though we have a pretty good idea where things are headed even now) and reach a rational conclusion that it was a problematic draft with some definite failings which actually played out pretty well for the Bills.

 

There are three major factors which draw me to this (semi) conclusion-

 

1. The early production from this draft was nothing short of outstanding in 2002-

 

A. The top choice MW showed tremendous promise and immediate production as a rookie as he was an immediate starter on an offense which carried the D to a vast improvement in W/L. OL was a clear need and we got one of the better performers of the rookie OL players in that draft.

B. The second pick had a very productive rookie year. Reed was not only seen as a 1st round quality player as a Biletnikoff winner but most important for us his production made it at least reasonable to reacquire the 1st rounder we lost in trading for a QB to immediately replace the failed RJ. Even more extraordinarily his prescence gave us the ability to play the PP situation into a recovered 1st pick who became WM.

C. Our needs in the first two picks left us with reasonable and even initially very good choices which left us with a huge hole still at DL which was made even worse by the way the market played out (losing Wiley, Big Ted, Hansen and Bruce Smith over 2 seasons while at the same time switching to a 3-4 to a 4-3 under GW's leadership. Again say whatever you want about Denney, but still I think the Bills would have needed to trade up to get a fellow whom Pitts. was on the phone with informing him they were going to pick him when we moved up and took him.

I think TD knew exactly what he was doing and probably went to sleep with a perverse smile on his face that night from having reached into Pitts pocket, but this action was a sidelight and he did the right thing even though Denney clearly did not become Bruce Smith.

D. Blahm balh, blah, I could go on in detail with more of the same but most players chosen that year are still Bills except for the last three picks and though this team is still flawed (THEY SHOULDA MADE THE PLAYOFFS BY NOW IF THEY HAD NOT MADE MISTAKES REVOLVING AROUND THE GW ERA) but the overall 2002 draft assessment is much the same to me.

 

2. The second year draft assessments have seen definite failures to produce in key players chosen despite some intial very positive outcomes. Bledsoe dropped from meriting his Pro Bpwl nod in 2002 (does anyone disagree and if you do then who deserved it more) to being one of the worst QBs in the league in 2003. MW's development stalled and he even showed signs of washing out when his beloved grandma died this off-season. Reed simply was unable to move up to the #2 responsibility and in conjunction with his injury an lack of production this year is really down to his last chance in mini-camps as he has gone backward. Denney has disappointed many who for some reason demand a pick in the second play the same role as the #1 pick (Bruce Smith) in the entire draft. Denney has not done this, but has been one of only 3 DEs on a team which only carries 3 DEs and managed to produce the #2 statistically rated D in the league.

 

3. The future and the overarching assessment of this draft will be written this year. My thought is:

 

A. This is not a make or break year for MW as OTs are simply too valuable in this league, he has been part of some good production initially, and he has seemed to at least reverse some bad production which came in conjunction with his family issues. I think with JMac providing a good framework, I am pretty hopeful he will continue his growth and MAY well turn out to give the kind of production we expected from a #4 choice. Not yet, but easily imaginable to me.

B. I think Reed is done actually. All the initial signs from the initial production and his resume were there, but for some reason it just has not worked as planned, He does get another chance in mini-camp and pre-season, but Aiken is flawed but threatening and if Aiken steps up then I think Reed begins to occupy the Bobby Shaw spot for the Bills. My guess (and this is little more than a guess) is that Aiken has shown enough upside to outdo him (though his droppsies are a bit annoying) and that actually we will try to find a player to catch lightening late in the draft or in UDFA and this also would push Reed out. I hope Reed steps up and produces like he did as a rookie but wouldn't bet the ranch and the dog on it.

C. The Bills still need a DE who draws blockers toward him and makes life even easier for the DTs and LBs. Neither Schobel, Kelsay or Denney is that man yet. However, the mistake I think many posters make is reaching the conclusion that because these players and particularly Denney are not good enough that they are not good at all. Each player had a pivotal role on a D which has improved outrageously over the last two years getting better players and employing a more appropriate scheme around them. Folks might want to blame Denney for these failings, but in the end he is one of the 3 DEs on ateam which must and does play 3 DEs and is far more productive from this play. If I'm the Bills I sign yet another DE if I see a player in the draft with the upside I want or an FA in the Jim Jeffcoat mode and I resign Denney as well.

D. Coy Wire has disappointed primarily in my mind because he has been poorly used. Having him start at SS as a pro when he had never played the position at any level of organized ball was simply outrageous. Even still he has shown the hitting desire, the speed, and should have the intellect as a Stanford grad to do things.

 

He has disappointed but seems to have found a role as captain of a very productive ST unit. He has never become a Taskeresque impact player as I hoped, but he has been asked to learn other things such as safety pass coverage he does not excel at. Since he has a relatively small cap hit (compared to the Prioleaux's of the world and has found a place as a recognized team leader and community leader I think he is easily a keeper for this year. Whether to resign him after that comes down to whether he can meet the challenge of becoming his version of a Taskerlike impact. If so great, if not say goodbye.

 

E. It actually is the Bledsoe element which makes the difference in assessing whether 2002 wasa good year for the Bills in terms of the draft. If we had cut our ties top Bledsoe after last off-season I would have easily judged it to be a wash as we got him in 2002 for future considerations and in return for this non-2002 expenditure we got a player who did well in 2002 for us while the Pats missed the playoffs in large part due to the accelerated cap hit from their mistaken contract.

 

However, he sucked so bad it was just a wash.

[GG]

Wow!  You're right, I looked at several teams (not all) and I can't find one team that had a great draft with more than just one or two solid picks in there that are still with their drafting teams.

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Check again, 2002 was a deep draft and lots of players picked are still solid contributors to their teams.

 

TD made one monumental mistake, and that was thinking that Denney was going to be special, or being hoodwinked by Pitt into picking him. Either way, to throw away a 4th rounder in a good draft to move up 8 spots was a mistake (in hindsight or not). Denney better have been head and shoulders above the remaining DEs still on the board - namely Dennis Johnson or Alex Brown - or whoever may have been available in free agency to trade up for Denney.

 

The other reason trading for Denney was a mistake is that a team that was severely lacking talent in '01 should not have been loose with extra draft picks. ow good would David Thornton, Alex Brown, or Randy McMichael be in a Bills uniform, plus the other pick from the 3rd round.

 

But, the selection of Reed in Rd 2 was very logical given Price's contract status, and reinforced by Reed's performance as a rookie.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Check again, 2002 was a deep draft and lots of players picked are still solid contributors to their teams.

 

TD made one monumental mistake, and that was thinking that Denney was going to be special, or being hoodwinked by Pitt into picking him.  Either way, to throw away a 4th rounder in a good draft to move up 8 spots was a mistake (in hindsight or not).  Denney better have been head and shoulders above the remaining DEs still on the board - namely Dennis Johnson or Alex Brown - or whoever may have been available in free agency to trade up for Denney. 

 

The other reason trading for Denney was a mistake is that a team that was severely lacking talent in '01 should not have been loose with extra draft picks.  ow good would David Thornton, Alex Brown, or Randy McMichael be in a Bills uniform, plus the other pick from the 3rd round.

 

But, the selection of Reed in Rd 2 was very logical given Price's contract status, and reinforced by Reed's performance as a rookie.

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I did check again briefly so i would be pleased to be corrected with greater specifics is I am wrong and time allows, but a short look at the DE position does not indicate that we were hoodwinked at DE at all and certainly not by Pittsburgh.

 

From a Bills perspective I agree with you that the selection of Josh Reed in Rd 2 was logical given his resume and even worked briefly given his first year production. I'd add to that by saying take our judgment of the best OT available (how you rate MW versus McKinnuie is a different question) with our first pick.

 

The important thing for us after we made what you and I agree was a logical choice of Reed is how much di we have to give to get a draft pick which allows us to take the best DE we can or do we wait until our third pick.

 

Looking at who was taken at DE after the Reed pick we missed out even by moving up on Anton Paelopot who was taken just prior to our acqusition of Denney, I know nothing about him but as he is already on another team and seems to have been unable to start 16 games a year in his career there seems to be no mistake here.

 

We traded a 4th to move up to get Denney here and this is where I begin to disagree with your concept that Pitt sucked us into this. My understanding is that Pittsburgh was on the phone with Denney letting him know they would select him with the 62nd pick. Pick #61 was on the board but this team had no need for a DE so Pitts put the call into Denney. However, it was at this point that the Bills made and announced the deal for the 61st pick and made it Denney. The idea that Pittsburgh was somehow on the phone with Denney as some sort of ruse to suck the Bills in seems bizarre at the least.

 

Moving on raises the question of whether the Bills should have done something else.

 

First, the picks I agree with you on in terms of Reed and my thoughts on an LT essentially mandated that the Bills get the best DE they could with their next pick. The bif picture was this team was shifting from a 3-4 to a 4-3 creating an extra DL starter need and this was happening while the business and our cap situation was costing us Wiley, Big Ted, Hansen and even Bruce the year before as a cap casualty. If you want to lay the blame for us having to spend a 4th to move up then lay it not on a mistake going after Denney but on the need created by the scheme change and spending out prior draft resources on MW and Reed.

 

If one must trade up then fortunately we missed out on Philipolai but was there some other alternative to Denney who would not have cost us the trade-up?

 

Well, Pitts who clearly had a DE desire did not seem to think so as they did not picl the next best DE but actually took Antwan Randle-El who has contributed to the team but would be worthless for our DE problems.

 

In fact the next DE was taken until the very end of the next round wich indicates to me that none of the other guys paid to think too much about this saw a DE talent worth taking in the rest of the 2nd and almost all of the 3rd.

 

The other choices until the Bills picked again and even afterwards were:

 

Dennis Johnson KY - picked #98 by AZ- is no lomger listed as a curremt player on NFL .com

Alex Brown FL- picked #104 by Chicago- He certainly has been a productive starter for Chicago earning their starting RDE slot. However, his total of 8 sacks in the past two years leads the Bears but is not going to get him mistaken for Bruce Smith. He was a good pick in the 4th round but clearly would have been a reach in the 2nd for a Bills team looking for a player who would have been gone in the second not even to mention the third.

Jarvis Green - picked #126 by NE A contributor but again his 4 sacks indicate he would not be an answer to out DE quandaries.

John Taylor - picked # 134 by Detroit Not on NFL.com as being in the league.

 

All in all, i think denney did not answer our questions but I see no real mistake alternative we should have taken that reasonably could have been or would have done so.

[pm73]

Let's take a look at that 2000 draft class:

1. Erik Flowers

2. Tavares Tillman

3. Corey Moore

4. Avion Black

5. Sammy Morris (the only quality pick of the litter and a special teamer/back up at best)

6. Leif Larsen

7a. Drew Haddad

7b. DaShon Polk

 

Ooh-fah! Makes the 2002 class look like an A by comparison! 

214400[/snapback]

 

 

that was a bad draft period. i created this thread a little while back, shows some of the players available when we were making each of those first few picks. man, is that a frustrating list to look at!

 

read down past the nyj comments.

 

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showt...72entry198872