ajzepp Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 I know there are a bunch of us who love playing, and several of you are better players than I am...so hoping I could pick your brain(s) Here's the thing: I have successfully taken my game up a few notches since I started playing again. I used to play very tight, seeing as many flops as possible, doing a lot of check raising and rarely bluffing. My stack stays very stable, but it gets exhausting grinding out a stack like that all the time. So I began implementing more aggression and semi-bluffing, and I've been shooting into the chip lead pretty consistently. I've played several low stakes tourneys recently and I've been knocked out early once and reached the money seats the other four times. Here's where I'm getting stuck...once I get to the money, obviously the blinds are getting up there and people are just betting like madmen. Flops are hard to come by and I feel like all my hard work is being turned into a series of coin flips. Even more frustrating, when I DO outplay someone, they are so damn loose with their stacks that I'll end up taking a bad beat when they hit some absurd draw on the river. Most of my experience is with sit-and-gos, so I'm trying to see if I can figure out a better strategy for the larger tourneys. Any of you guys have good advice? Or am I just pretty much going to have to take my chances once we get to this point? Thanks guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Vader Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 So you are asking us for advice on illegal gambling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 So you are asking us for advice on illegal gambling? Poker isn't gambling...and nothing illegal about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Vader Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Poker isn't gambling...and nothing illegal about it. Oh, ok. I'm not a pro, so I have no advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 Oh, ok. I'm not a pro, so I have no advice. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 Well sure, AJ...here's an article that may be a good start, at least until others chime in with some helpful advice...hang in there, buddy! http://www.beatthefish.com/poker-strategy/poker-bad-beats.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Well sure, AJ...here's an article that may be a good start, at least until others chime in with some helpful advice...hang in there, buddy! http://www.beatthefi...-bad-beats.html You post at 1am and you're surprised that no one has answered at 3am? The degenerates that you want to talk to are either stoned or are playing poker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 The sit and gos get crazy because the size of the blinds compared to the number ot total chips in the game is so out of whack..nothing you can do BUT be aggressive in those situations...where you may even vein the chip lead but only have say 5 big blinds. In larger tourneys, say with at least 50 people, if you get down to final table, your stack compared to the blind levels will be more manageable. I don't think there is a strategy that will work per se , but one that seems okay for me is I only 3 bet every time ....I may have a pair of 4s, or Aces, but still a 3 bet on opening bet. Least then when people figure out that is all you do, when it gets to later in trny I can 3 bet garbage and still have people fold to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 The sit and gos get crazy because the size of the blinds compared to the number ot total chips in the game is so out of whack..nothing you can do BUT be aggressive in those situations...where you may even vein the chip lead but only have say 5 big blinds. In larger tourneys, say with at least 50 people, if you get down to final table, your stack compared to the blind levels will be more manageable. I don't think there is a strategy that will work per se , but one that seems okay for me is I only 3 bet every time ....I may have a pair of 4s, or Aces, but still a 3 bet on opening bet. Least then when people figure out that is all you do, when it gets to later in trny I can 3 bet garbage and still have people fold to it. What's a 3 bet?? 3x what the last guy bet?? AJ - I have no advice for you...I enjoy poker but I'm an amateur (the perfect "mark"...lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 You post at 1am and you're surprised that no one has answered at 3am? The degenerates that you want to talk to are either stoned or are playing poker. Just trying to model a bit more helpful response than what had been offered to that point...since SOME people seem to have a hard time doing that...*ahem* The sit and gos get crazy because the size of the blinds compared to the number ot total chips in the game is so out of whack..nothing you can do BUT be aggressive in those situations...where you may even vein the chip lead but only have say 5 big blinds. In larger tourneys, say with at least 50 people, if you get down to final table, your stack compared to the blind levels will be more manageable. I don't think there is a strategy that will work per se , but one that seems okay for me is I only 3 bet every time ....I may have a pair of 4s, or Aces, but still a 3 bet on opening bet. Least then when people figure out that is all you do, when it gets to later in trny I can 3 bet garbage and still have people fold to it. Interesting...I've seen others use that strategy, and it does do a good job of masking the hand, which coincides with something I like to do, as well...it has helped to seek out some articles online, cause earlier tonight I was getting frustrated saying to myself, "dammit, I'm so sick of these people pulling the miracle river out of their ass!"....to which someone made the point that that's actually how you know you're playing good poker. If it's always taking them hitting a miracle river to win the hand, then it's confirmation that you likely played the hand correctly and in the long run you'll come out ahead. I just get frustrated sometimes when it happens a few times in a row, but I guess it happens to the best of us. I'm going to start playing the cash tables more, I think, too...I find that the quality of my play improves by enduring a 4-5hr tourney, but it would be nice to bang out some cash grabs on the money tables, too....I wish we could get another TBD game going... What's a 3 bet?? 3x what the last guy bet?? AJ - I have no advice for you...I enjoy poker but I'm an amateur (the perfect "mark"...lol) I believe he's referring to 3x the big blind...that's usually how we categorize our bets. Some vary the size of the raise depending on seating position relative to the dealer, or how many others limped in to the hand (meaning how many just called the minimum bet and didn't raise), etc. A standard raise is typically 3-6x the big blind, but plenz is advocating a flat bet regardless of starting hand, which can make it harder for others to gauge what he's got. Nothign wrong with being an amateur....glad to hear you're enjoying the game! I taught myself to play back in 2007 and have really enjoyed it since. Simple to learn, difficult to master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 (edited) Aj it sounds like you got it down. I play loose and love to bluff the tight players (I do okay at tourneys) The tight player who never bluffs will rarely win tourneys as they don't take advantage of the river bluff. I cashed in a tourney w 100 bluffs. Never had ace queen or better as a starting hand. Maryland live 3 hours from me has an awesome poker room and tourney schedule now, no more 6 hour trips to Atlantic city are needed. Where you playing at AJ ? Edited November 16, 2013 by Ryan L Billz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Aj it sounds like you got it down. I play loose and love to bluff the tight players (I do okay at tourneys) The tight player who never bluffs will rarely win tourneys as they don't take advantage of the river bluff. I cashed in a tourney w 100 bluffs. Never had ace queen or better as a starting hand. Maryland live 3 hours from me has an awesome poker room and tourney schedule now, no more 6 hour trips to Atlantic city are needed. Where you playing at AJ ? Interesting on the Maryland Live...I keep forgetting they have table games now. Feels weird going to a casino at a mall LOL. Now if they get to build that MGM at National Harbour, that place will be sweet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 Aj it sounds like you got it down. I play loose and love to bluff the tight players (I do okay at tourneys) The tight player who never bluffs will rarely win tourneys as they don't take advantage of the river bluff. I cashed in a tourney w 100 bluffs. Never had ace queen or better as a starting hand. Maryland live 3 hours from me has an awesome poker room and tourney schedule now, no more 6 hour trips to Atlantic city are needed. Where you playing at AJ ? lol, what you described is the exact motivation that I used to change my game. I was feeling like I was being restricted by the cards and my stack and allowing that to dictate my game. And when I would come across more aggressive players like yourself, it would really be a nightmare unless I just happened to flop a monster, which rarely happened. I've had the very same experience on multiple times that you describe, where I barely had a decent starting hand all damn game. I started to pay attention to how others were making me feel with their play and that's when I knew it was time for a change. It's SO much more fun now that I've added an aggressive element to my game. The Harrah's Cherokee casino that is only about a 2hr drive into the GA mountains for me has finally added table games, including a full poker room. Used to be they only had this digital table thing where only the cards were real and everything else was digital. That never much appealed to me, so when I recently heard that they added the tables, I started thinking I needed to get back into playing again. Playing live in Biloxi for the first time in 2010 was one of the most fun experience of my life...so I'm hoping I can take my new game to Cherokee and even do so regularly. I communicated with Sportsbook.com a few weeks ago, which is one of the rooms that Fezmid and I used to play at before the legislation went down and realized that there wasn't anything holding me back from continuing there, so that's where Iv'e been getting my game fired up again. I have a 7-year relationship with them so it was a no-brainer. I also have been looking at Bovada as a more active option, cause Sportsbook is pretty slow most of the time. I can't wait to hit the live tables again, though, man...when you get to the point where you can pick up tendencies with so little info during an online game, playing live is like sensory overload to me lol. When I played in Biloxi the first time, it was almost like people were verbally telling me what they had...that's part of what made it so fun. But I know you guys already know that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted November 17, 2013 Author Share Posted November 17, 2013 Just finished 6th out of 198 in a $1 tourney....1800% return on my investment isn't bad I guess lol. One other thing I'm really trying to work on is not allowing my entire game to hinge on one single hand. I focused on that this tourney today and it really paid off. One time I lost half my stack to a bad beat, but I was able to climb right back up again and get to the final table. I'm trying to greatly minimize the use of "all-in" and "check" lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) Though cash tables suit my game far better than tournament play, I have a very good understanding of tournaments as I organized and ran them for 5 years for a living. I am also not a pro player, though until my illness took a turn for the worst I was about to become semi-pro at the cash tables. (Kept track for multiple years with a 95% success rate of leaving the tables with a very good hourly rate). Enough about my credentials.... Unless a tournament has been structured in an extraordinarily unusual way, your assessment is spot on about tournaments becoming about coin flips once entering the money. This is due to stack size/blind size ratio. Math is often the key to understanding the situations in poker. If there are 48 people left in the tourney and you have average stack size.....you will need to double up to remain steady before there are 24 people left.....then double up again before there are 12 left etc, etc. Winning blinds has benefits, but unless you continually double up you leave the tournament. My advice is to pay close attention to other players stack size. If you enter a hand with a player who does not have enough chips to comfortably 'play poker' through the hands entirety, leaving them with enough chips to continue if they lose the hand(which will be most players at that point)......they will most likely push all-in early(usually before the turn and/or river cards)......or be pot committed to the point where bluffing of any kind becomes irrelevant. It is also most likely at that point that you yourself have committed too many chips into the hand and end up having to call. The trick IMO(if there is one) is to be fully aware(based upon stack sizes) of the likelihood of having to commit all of your chips on a hand before you enter into it......and have a good understanding of how your bets will effect your opponent(based upon stack size). Going up against the short stacks is ONLY beneficial if you can easily afford to lose the chips. You know you will be in a coin toss.....and you know that the small stack will go all-in. If you do win the pot, you don't even double up......but if you lose the pot you will likely be crippled and need another coin toss very soon. Going up against the big stacks is far more beneficial at this point in the tourney. Apart from the concept that you might still be able to bluff or push them out of the hand(largely dependent on your stack size)......if you end up in a coin toss situation you get the maximum benefits(doubling stack size).....and get to have your coin toss situations less frequently. Mathematically it is simple. Against big stack.... Double up.....double up....equals 4 times stack size for two 50/50 coin flips(25% chance). Against stacks 2/3rds of your stack size.... 1.66 increase.....1.66 increase....equals 2.78 times stack size for two 50/50 coin flips(25% chance). Thanks for the opportunity to talk poker again. Edit: BTW....Crown in Melbourne(where I live) has one of the best poker rooms in the world! Edited November 17, 2013 by Dibs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted November 17, 2013 Author Share Posted November 17, 2013 Great post, Dibs! Thanks man, that is fantastic info...and it sounds like yet another reason why I should move to Australia!! haha What you said makes perfect sense, especially regarding relative stack sizes. If I can improve just a little more, especially at the end of these tourneys, I'm really thinking I could turn this into a small profit center. I feel so much less fatigued now that I've opened up my game, so I'm going to digest the advice you guys offer and try to take another step up. It's really starting to get to the point where I'm only getting knocked out to a bad beat or just an exceptional play by another opponent...minimizing my own mistakes has helped a lot. Here's just a quick snapshot of a tourney I was in a little earlier tonight...this is how most of my games have been going lately now that I'm using more bluffs and raises. I just gotta finish a bit better and I'll be golden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 A 3 bet is a 2nd raise. The term has no correlation to the size of the BB. People play looser at lower stakes. Play the highest level you can afford. Suckouts and bad beats diminish as the investment incresses. Later in tournaments, as the blinds represent a bigger percentage of your stacks, you need to be proactive. Bluff from any position and shoving is often the right mathematical play. The earlier you shove, the harder it is for others to call (mathematically, anyway). Wait too long and the pot odds will improve to the point that a call is the right play, even with weaker hole cards. Throughout the entire tournament, open your range a little at a 6 man table, as compared to a 9 or 10 man table. And at the final table, as the table gets smaller and smaller, open your range more and more. Generally, when you have a good hand, raise enough to get marginal hands out. Calling, especially in early position, only sweetens the pot odds for those yet to act. I'd love to see your hand history for an entire tournament. Can you save them on your site? Can any shlub get money on bovada? I'd love to be able to play online again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) ..... People play looser at lower stakes. Play the highest level you can afford. Suckouts and bad beats diminish as the investment incresses. ..... In my experience, this is only somewhat true when playing online. When playing at a casino however there seems to be little correlation to level of stakes and looseness of play......unless perhaps if you play high stakes(which I don't know as I haven't played high stakes). I have played $200 entry tournaments and found there was just as many crazy players as a $30 tournament. The tournaments that one should definitely avoid are the re-buy tournaments as it seems to encourage the muppets to shove early.....and re-buy if they get knocked out. Cash tables work similarly at the casinos that I have played at. I would typically play on the $2/$3 tables which were pretty much the best for non-maniac play. The $0.50/$1 tables had a higher crazy percentage......but so too did the $5/$10 tables. My thoughts on casino poker breaks down as such..... 1) Most people go to a casino to gamble.....and that is exactly what most people do on casino poker tables. 2) Some people have more money than others so gambling on a $10 blind table is the same as a person with less money gambling on a $1 blind table. 3) Most people who play cash tables or small($200 or less) tournaments at a casino don't really have much idea about how to play poker.....thus there is always a large number of crazy decisions made by fellow casino poker players. Edited November 17, 2013 by Dibs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 You post at 1am and you're surprised that no one has answered at 3am? The degenerates that you want to talk to are either stoned or are playing poker. good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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