Kneeling Down

[The Big Cat]

Well, not sure what else to say. I agree that the motion may have started, but I also think that if you exaggerate the kneel to last several extra seconds then you are fair game for a clean hit (again, I am not insinuating that this was a clean hit), especially when it happens three plays in a row. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

And I understand what you're saying. If a quarterback wants to be bush league and pump fake the kneel three times to run time off knowing he can't be hit, that doesn't seem fair to the defense...but neither do most other rules pertaining to the quarterback that we know to exist.

[NoSaint]

 

 

No.

 

I mean he was literally in a squatting motion on his way down to the turf when he was hit.

 

It's no different than hitting a QB while he's sliding.

 

As soon as the sliding motion begins, it's over. You can't hit him just because he wasn't on the turf yet. His motion started and that means the play is over.

 

The squatting motion of the kneel down had already begun when Suggs hit him.

 

im not so sure the "squating motion has started" is actually a rule. a qb could stop the motion and toss the ball, unlike the slide where once going down, you are going down. for instance, on a kick return the returner could act like hes downing the ball, and then take off if the coverage team starts loafing down the field.

 

i dont blame the ravens for trying to force us into a decision to either A) hurry up to avoid hits and return the ball to them with time left, or B) actually mishandle it and fumble.

 

i really didnt watch the replays of the actual hit, so i cant speak to the nature of the impact. all i knew was the play was done, the flag was out, and the game was over.

 

ps. i take it challenge is microscopes?

Edited September 30, 2013 by NoSaint

[The Big Cat]

im not so sure the "squating motion has started" is actually a rule. a qb could stop the motion and toss the ball, unlike the slide where once going down, you are going down. for instance, on a kick return the returner could act like hes downing the ball, and then take off if the coverage team starts loafing down the field.

 

i dont blame the ravens for trying to force us into a decision to either A) hurry up to avoid hits and return the ball to them with time left, or B) actually mishandle it and fumble.

 

i really didnt watch the replays of the actual hit, so i cant speak to the nature of the impact. all i knew was the play was done, the flag was out, and the game was over.

 

ps. i take it challenge is microscopes?

 

but all he had to do was touch him down.

 

he WRAPPED HIM UP...THEN THREW HIM TO THE GROUND

 

kneel, no kneel, down, not down, hesitating, doesn't matter, he manhandled a guy who was clearly giving himself up.

[NoSaint]

 

 

but all he had to do was touch him down.

 

he WRAPPED HIM UP...THEN THREW HIM TO THE GROUND

 

kneel, no kneel, down, not down, hesitating, doesn't matter, he manhandled a guy who was clearly giving himself up.

 

but is it "clearly giving himself up" when he is intentionally not giving himself up yet? until he went down, simply touching him does not end the play.

 

i didnt like it and got on schiano for going after it last year during a standard issue kneel down, but if were going to force them to get to us before we kneel, i dont think you should be surprised when they hit EJ if he doesnt get down fast. the whole action/reaction -- if we are going to punish the defenders by milking the clock, dont be shocked when they try to force us to stop it.

Edited September 30, 2013 by NoSaint

[Captain Caveman]

but all he had to do was touch him down.

 

he WRAPPED HIM UP...THEN THREW HIM TO THE GROUND

 

kneel, no kneel, down, not down, hesitating, doesn't matter, he manhandled a guy who was clearly giving himself up.

 

If he's not yet kneeling then a touch does no good (this isn't touch football.)

[tennesseeboy]

not directed at you directly, but just because it happened once means no one should ever try to run in that situation again?

I think the consensus is that you want to limit the number of people who have to handle the ball in any one play at that particular point in the game. Center to qb is basic. Center to qb to running back doubles the opportunities. When the issue is not gaining yards but killing time the kneel down is the logical choice.

[The Big Cat]

If he's not yet kneeling then a touch does no good (this isn't touch football.)

 

This conversation can go no further until somebody with game rewind does a screen grab of where Manuel was when he was wrapped up.

[NoSaint]

 

 

This conversation can go no further until somebody with game rewind does a screen grab of where Manuel was when he was wrapped up.

 

if hes kneeling, he doesnt even have to be touched (think touchback) which would make a late hit an issue. similarly, unless someone can bring up a rule with regards to "in the act of kneeling" we are likely just going in circles.

[RealityCheck]

They took a few drawn out knees. They burned a few extra seconds in doing so and drew a personal foul which sealed the game. The scheme worked, what else is there to say?

[Captain Caveman]

They took a few drawn out knees. They burned a few extra seconds in doing so and drew a personal foul which sealed the game. The scheme worked, what else is there to say?

 

It seems there is quite a bit else to say, judging from this thread.

[xsoldier54]

This is not true, the clock stops on a change of possession.

OK, you're right. I was thinking that inside two minutes it doesn't stop on a sack. Regardless, I believe that is what I hear Marrone say post game. They were not going to punt with 5 seconds or less on the clock. Maybe I misunderstood him.

[Captain Caveman]

OK, you're right. I was thinking that inside two minutes it doesn't stop on a sack. Regardless, I believe that is what I hear Marrone say post game. They were not going to punt with 5 seconds or less on the clock. Maybe I misunderstood him.

 

I agree with the rest of your post, I don't think they were planning on punting, but they did need to make sure they ran out every second, or risk still turning the ball back over to the Ravens for one final play.

[Ramius]

Suppose the Bills had needed to waste 4 seconds on 4th down, and they have EJ scramble around and throw the ball OOB. What happens if the Bills get flagged for intentional grounding on 4th down? I know that if grounding is called on 4th, the Ravens would have gotten the ball, but since the clock is at 0, is the game over? Or would the Ravens get an untimed down?

[ChallengeHistory]

im not so sure the "squating motion has started" is actually a rule. a qb could stop the motion and toss the ball, unlike the slide where once going down, you are going down. for instance, on a kick return the returner could act like hes downing the ball, and then take off if the coverage team starts loafing down the field.

 

i dont blame the ravens for trying to force us into a decision to either A) hurry up to avoid hits and return the ball to them with time left, or B) actually mishandle it and fumble.

 

i really didnt watch the replays of the actual hit, so i cant speak to the nature of the impact. all i knew was the play was done, the flag was out, and the game was over.

 

ps. i take it challenge is microscopes?

 

I believe it is.

 

Not in the words we used, but in the idea.

 

There's not a ref in the league who isn't throwing a flag on a player tackling a QB who is in the motion of downing the ball.

 

if hes kneeling, he doesnt even have to be touched (think touchback) which would make a late hit an issue. similarly, unless someone can bring up a rule with regards to "in the act of kneeling" we are likely just going in circles.

 

Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1©: "An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended when a quarterback drops to his knee (or simulates dropping to his knee) behind the line of scrimmage"

 

As soon as the QB begins the motion downwards, the play is over.

 

Likewise, if a QB simulated kneeling, and then threw the ball, the referee could whistle the play dead and the pass would not count.

Edited September 30, 2013 by ChallengeHistory

[NoSaint]

 

 

I believe it is.

 

Not in the words we used, but in the idea.

 

There's not a ref in the league who isn't throwing a flag on a player tackling a QB who is in the motion of downing the ball.

 

 

 

Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1©: "An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended when a quarterback drops to his knee (or simulates dropping to his knee) behind the line of scrimmage"

 

As soon as the QB begins the motion downwards, the play is over.

 

Likewise, if a QB simulated kneeling, and then threw the ball, the referee could whistle the play dead and the pass would not count.

 

there you go - and i appreciate you taking the time to look.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Not sure why people keep saying Powell had a bad game. Outside of the 29-yarder, he kicked well.

maybe for the same reason you said Chandler was not good and should be dumped.