KD in CA Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 1343161917[/url]' post='2512097']I am tired of people saying the punishment is fair with something along the lines of "punish all of those responsible" forgetting those responsible are no longer a part of the institution. Those punished had nothing to do with the situation. Paterno is dead and buried, let him stay that way. Your response is laughable. I guess Abe Lincoln was a bad man, too; you know, once having slaves and all. Catholic church is all bad. America, yeah, we are not a good place. Brilliant analogy. Slavery was both legal and socially acceptable when Lincoln owned them. Not to mention, he did something about that moral travesty rather than promote it until his death as was the case with Paterno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Every time and in every instance that the NCAA has imposed penalties on their member institutions for whatever rule violations they cited, there have been innocent players and students that have had to bear the brunt of the fallout. That is inevitable. The only way to ensure that innocent kids DON'T get caught in the fallout is to NOT impose the penalties in the first place. How would YOU go about imposing penalties without hurting those left behind? I know that Lincoln's wife's family were slave owners at one time but was he actually someone that owned slaves? Actually had them as servants and field hands and such? Never mind. I just remembered a thread about why there was a civil war and I don't want to go there again. I would be more proactive in policy enforcement. I ran track briefly in college and saw how little the NCAA was involved in the athletic process. Since then it is quite clear that the read and react approach of the NCAA has not got things done and not to sound like some ditto head I will propose solutions. - Reward the better programs. Schools that have better academics get more scholarships, more money. - Although very hypothetical get NCAA Reps on the teams, maybe coaching/monitoring staff or athletes. The NFL has union reps it would work similar. The entire NCAA world of the big 2 sports works like a machine. Win and just win. (Interestingly enough, if all these people at PSU knew how did not one player know or hear something). - Moniter the players more. I don't care if you make them feel like they are on probation, just check on them. Anyone checking on many of these athletes would have scratched their head wondering why they are driving a Mercedes when they come from the slums of hood. - I will not even bother saying to send the coaches to more ethics conferences. Have NCAA reps in the offices often. Eventually, you will either see issues that are concerning or you will stress that things will be done right. Of course, this all makes me wonder just how much the NCAA really cares and how much is just protecting an image of the NCAA. Quite frankly, I do not think they care at all about the athletes once they are done with their schooling. PS: That civil war thread was probably the most fun I have read in ages. A lot of good threads are coming up in discussions recently; NJSue's homework threads!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) Every time and in every instance that the NCAA has imposed penalties on their member institutions for whatever rule violations they cited, there have been innocent players and students that have had to bear the brunt of the fallout. That is inevitable. The only way to ensure that innocent kids DON'T get caught in the fallout is to NOT impose the penalties in the first place. How would YOU go about imposing penalties without hurting those left behind? I know that Lincoln's wife's family were slave owners at one time but was he actually someone that owned slaves? Actually had them as servants and field hands and such? Never mind. I just remembered a thread about why there was a civil war and I don't want to go there again. punishments will always radiate through the community around those punished. its just the nature of the beast, and that is ok - it shouldnt preclude us from punishing anyone. i agree fully. what i can see and understand is frustrating in this specific case is that anyone tied to this is gone. atleast with a pay for play booster scandal you can justify that although pete carroll is gone - typically the powerful alums involved remain and will hopefully stay away from the next regime (unlikely, but atleast theres an element of punishment hitting people involved). in those cases its also a bit of a balancing act with the school had an advantage so now they suffer a disadvantage. here everyone is gone, there may have been some advantage but its hard to quantify, the boosters although fanatical didnt cover this up.... i can see how a fine, vacating the wins and say ncaa bans to all that knew as opposed to scholarships/bowls type punishment might better serve "justice." i dont think the consequence to the school really takes away any incentive for people to cover up one of their staffs misdeeds. i cant imagine one of them thinking "i can deal with financial ruin, totally destroyed reputation, putting my family through hell, possibly going to prison.... but not a bowl ban while im in jail." atleast in a recruiting situation a booster might think to himself "maybe i shouldnt give this money as i dont want to see my team get nailed." I would be more proactive in policy enforcement. I ran track briefly in college and saw how little the NCAA was involved in the athletic process. Since then it is quite clear that the read and react approach of the NCAA has not got things done and not to sound like some ditto head I will propose solutions. - Reward the better programs. Schools that have better academics get more scholarships, more money. - Although very hypothetical get NCAA Reps on the teams, maybe coaching/monitoring staff or athletes. The NFL has union reps it would work similar. The entire NCAA world of the big 2 sports works like a machine. Win and just win. (Interestingly enough, if all these people at PSU knew how did not one player know or hear something). - Moniter the players more. I don't care if you make them feel like they are on probation, just check on them. Anyone checking on many of these athletes would have scratched their head wondering why they are driving a Mercedes when they come from the slums of hood. - I will not even bother saying to send the coaches to more ethics conferences. Have NCAA reps in the offices often. Eventually, you will either see issues that are concerning or you will stress that things will be done right. Of course, this all makes me wonder just how much the NCAA really cares and how much is just protecting an image of the NCAA. Quite frankly, I do not think they care at all about the athletes once they are done with their schooling. PS: That civil war thread was probably the most fun I have read in ages. A lot of good threads are coming up in discussions recently; NJSue's homework threads!!! you mean all that money from the bowls, and tv and all that could get invested into the student athlete? you know, the people they are supposed to be looking out for. Edited July 24, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 A distinction needs to be made between the NCAA as a governing organization and its member schools. The NCAA organization is a non-profit that takes in zero dollars in revenue from the media rights to college football. The vast majority of revenues to the NCAA organization are derived from the media rights sold to TBS and CBS Sports for the rights to broadcast the NCAA Div 1 Men's Basketball Championships. Here's a breakdown: http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Finances/Revenue Media rights for Div. 1 college football are strictly between the conferences and/or independent schools and the networks that pay for the broadcasting rights for those games. That's why the NCAA had no hand in the Big 10 deciding to dock $13m from PSU's share of those revenues. And jboyst. I appreciate your input about how the NCAA can be more proactive in their approach. Especially from the viewpoint of a former collegiate athlete subject to NCAA rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 you mean all that money from the bowls, and tv and all that could get invested into the student athlete? you know, the people they are supposed to be looking out for. What is scary is that a lot of that money does get returned and reinvested to the student athlete, the "minor" sports. Track, Cross Country, Volleyball, Wrestling, etc. Title IX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 What is scary is that a lot of that money does get returned and reinvested to the student athlete, the "minor" sports. Track, Cross Country, Volleyball, Wrestling, etc. Title IX. as an administrator in college athletics, it is sad what is happening to wrestling. It is a great sport and a huge part of human history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) I want to temper some of the things I said earlier in this thread. The more I catch up with the topic, the more I realize how complex an issue it is and how I might be a big out of my depth on this because of the breadth and depth of the story and my time constraints. For one thing this story covers a very long period of time starting with complaints and investigations in the 90s and then the McQueary witnessed incident in 2002 and the years following that. There is a separate discussion about the NCAA's proper role in all of this and there are good arguments on both sides of that issue. Then there's the aspect that the punishment hurts people who had nothing to do with what happened… also the complex and surreptitious politics which are a big part of the university culture. There are MANY unknowns as Haplo pointed out… who did and said what… and while there is a natural tendency to sensationalize and demonize Paterno, in the overall apportionment of blame, we may likely never know who is most or least culpably. I only know a few things for sure. 1) Sandusky can rot in hell. 2) A bunch of very powerful men hid their heads in the sand and none of those principals had the courage to do the right thing… which was to make a very public issue of these complaints. The many other sub-issues I still haven't made my mind up on yet. Edited July 25, 2012 by San Jose Bills Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Brilliant analogy. Slavery was both legal and socially acceptable when Lincoln owned them. Not to mention, he did something about that moral travesty rather than promote it until his death as was the case with Paterno. Lincoln? You guys really shouldn't believe every POS website out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Lincoln? You guys really shouldn't believe every POS website out there. I can't believe no one called me on that (except partially). I really thought I could get this thread to end up debating civil war history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I can't believe no one called me on that (except partially). I really thought I could get this thread to end up debating civil war history. I knew better. That's why I didn't hammer you on it. Knowing your penchant for southern propaganda and all. BOOM goes the dynamite! Seriously, I'm not going there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) I want to temper some of the things I said earlier in this thread. The more I catch up with the topic, the more I realize how complex an issue it is and how I might be a big out of my depth on this because of the breadth and depth of the story and my time constraints. For one thing this story covers a very long period of time starting with complaints and investigations in the 90s and then the McQueary witnessed incident in 2002 and the years following that. There is a separate discussion about the NCAA's proper role in all of this and there are good arguments on both sides of that issue. Then there's the aspect that the punishment hurts people who had nothing to do with what happened… also the complex and surreptitious politics which are a big part of the university culture. There are MANY unknowns as Haplo pointed out… who did and said what… and while there is a natural tendency to sensationalize and demonize Paterno, in the overall apportionment of blame, we may likely never know who is most or least culpably. I only know a few things for sure. 1) Sandusky can rot in hell. 2) A bunch of very powerful men hid their heads in the sand and none of those principals had the courage to do the right thing… which was to make a very public issue of these complaints. The many other sub-issues I still haven't made my mind up on yet. I think in a lot of ways I agree on all fronts - hence I've been sure to temper a lot of my statements with the fact that I'm far from an NCAA bylaws expert and barely know the penn state program and that I have the conflicts in my own opinions of wanting to see the whole thing burned down in a gut reaction vs not being sure that's the right way to go when I reflect. I know I've stuck to my guns on it and I think part is wanting the opposite side of the story to be told. It's really easy to come to a thread like this and say "dude I hate child rape more than any of them, let's get everyone for everything we can" but I'm still getting hung up on the idea that even people that abuse the hell out of the system deserve to be protected by it. I may end up saying that this played out right in 6 months but I also think I'll be glad to not be swept up in the mob - and that's not to say everyone on the otherside is in a brainwashed mob! Like you said, there are great thought provoking arguments on both sides of so many of these sub-issues. I also think its important to continue to point out that I think everyone agrees on your two main conclusions- Sandusky is a monster, and it's sad so many people backed down from both him and his actions. Honestly, I barely remember how this came back to light but bravo to all those that stood up and said enough is enough. The victims, their families, the law enforcement and prosecution.... I know it's hard to muster a sense of pride when dealing with such ugly acts but those that did what needed to be done to stop this should be proud. Unfortunately the atrocities from this story are far from fully told. We likely have both a lot more ugly details in the coverup and almost certainly many many more boys who will always be too scared or ashamed to share their stories. Its sad to think there's potential for what we know to be just the tip of the iceberg. An interesting turn of words in the discussion I heard this morning was that this wasnt a lack of institutional control, this was the most complete control possible. There's no university president or AD or coach saying "oh my goodness, boosters gave money to a player and I didn't know about it?!?!?" this was everyone in the chain of authority acting together. Depressing? Infuriating? In a lot of ways this program, these men, it was such a perfect storm to create this outcome. The odds of a coach with that standing and longevity? The odds of his trusted companion being this monster? Having everyone in the chain be the right type of person to justify burying it? To have a guy like mcquery see it but not really report it? All it would've taken is one person and I like to think that one person is far more common then the 5 or so that did nothing. Ugh - atleast thatll help me sleep at night even if it might not be true.... Edited July 25, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
You herd it hear last Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Hey everyone on all sides of this matter: Let's not p!$$ away a real opportunity to change the culture of college sports and beyond... surely something good or great can be borne from these tragic and preventable events, right?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester43 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) as an administrator in college athletics, it is sad what is happening to wrestling. It is a great sport and a huge part of human history. yes and it is a great reason NO football program whould have more than 65 scholarships. it's insane how much the ncaa lets these schools spend on football and it is definitely hurting other sports thank god i coach at school with no football...and our men's wrestling and track/xc programs are thriving. Edited July 25, 2012 by jester43 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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