Lurker Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 (edited) What does the size and income of the market have to do with making quality football decisions? You must have missed the OP's statement "Pittsburgh small city, former steel town. Has same economy." If he wanted to acknowledge that the Rooney's are strong football people, fine--that's a given and no astute NFL fan would dispute the fact. But the 'same market' point is flat out wrong and has no bearing on comparisons to the Bills issues with selling tickets... Edited May 24, 2012 by Lurker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Nothing's changed in this discussion. Two factors: Better ownership Bigger markets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardinalScotts Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Plus when it comes down to choosing who stays, your director of football operations or your head coach it helps to make the right decision. its been the drafting- they draft very very well, they rarely spend in free agency because they don't have to make up for poor drafts. In addition they play hard nosed defensive football, easier to find defensive players than offensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) You must have missed the OP's statement "Pittsburgh small city, former steel town. Has same economy." If he wanted to acknowledge that the Rooney's are strong football people, fine--that's a given and no astute NFL fan would dispute the fact. [but the 'same market' point is flat out wrong and has no bearing on comparisons to the Bills issues with selling tickets... The Bills' fan support is exceptional considering the fact that the team has been mediocre for more than a decade. If you put out a competitive product on the field the fans will correspondingly respond. I'll repeat what I said in the prior post that western NY''s demographics have little to do with how the fan base responds. The caliber of the team's ownership and organization have more to do with the level of fan support. There has been a lot of positive activity in this offseason from the draft to free agency signings. The early ticket purchases show that the fans are positively responding to the organization's moves. The market size of the region is more than sufficient to support an NFL franchise. Edited May 25, 2012 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggieScooby Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Pittsburgh has had stability at head coaching and made better front office decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 The early ticket purchases show that the fans are positively responding to the organization's moves. Yes, but to what degree compared to other teams' season ticket bases? Are they up to maybe 45,000 after a stellar offseason? Sorry but that number doesn't impress me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 The market size of the region is more than sufficient to support an NFL franchise. Honestly, the general public lacks the facts to prove or disprove this statement. It's fine for any fan to casually throw this statement out there, but unfortunately, "any fan" is not the one who will set the threshold in the real world - it's the monied investors who want TOP return on their investment. Being "sufficient" might be enough for Ralph, but how do you know it's enough for the next investor? Time will tell, but the INVESTORS will be the judge, not the fans thinking with their hearts. So kudos to Ralph for trying to level the playing field and increase the sufficiency of the WNY market to the next investor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Yes, but to what degree compared to other teams' season ticket bases? Are they up to maybe 45,000 after a stellar offseason? Sorry but that number doesn't impress me. Agree with your point and will add that you also have to take into account the cost of tickets… the Bills have the lowest ticket prices in the NFL… and that hasn't been mentioned yet in this topic but is a big part of the issue (market strength). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) The #1 reason the Steelers are a great organization is because the Rooney's go through an extensive interview process when hiring someone, and they then back away and let thos people do their job. Ralph needs to be involved on a daily basis. And with that philosphy came great success. With the success the Steelers brand became national. The Steeler generate more money being national. The Bills could possibly be like the Steelers right now if Ralph stayed away from Polian. The Steelers as a franchise are worth like 2-3 hundred million more than the Bills. Edited May 25, 2012 by TheTruthHurts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cson76 Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 One major factor that is being missed is Pittsburgh has a strong corporate backing compared to Buffalo. Buffalo is very, very light in corporate dollars with zero major corporate headquarters. Corporate dollars matters when it comes to selling boxes and suites at a higher dollar value. Granted, even if we did, Ralph still wouldn't sell stadium naming rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 The Bills' fan support is exceptional considering the fact that the team has been mediocre for more than a decade. If you put out a competitive product on the field the fans will correspondingly respond. At some ofthe least expensive ticket prices in the NFL (or pro sports, for that matter). Putting fannys in the seats is one thing--getting revenue comparable to what other teams can generate is another. As other posters have mentioned, the lack of corporate suite prospects in WNY, as well as the personal income differential puts the Bills behind larger NFL markets. Scalper prices for each team are another reflection of this trend. Sure, it starts with winning. But having an income base to tap is also critically important. I wonder how Bills fans would react if Ralph asked them to pay 25% more per ticket--the difference between what Pittsburgh charges ($74.32) and what Buffalo seats go for ($59.19) on average? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Honestly, the general public lacks the facts to prove or disprove this statement. It's fine for any fan to casually throw this statement out there, but unfortunately, "any fan" is not the one who will set the threshold in the real world - it's the monied investors who want TOP return on their investment. Being "sufficient" might be enough for Ralph, but how do you know it's enough for the next investor? Time will tell, but the INVESTORS will be the judge, not the fans thinking with their hearts. So kudos to Ralph for trying to level the playing field and increase the sufficiency of the WNY market to the next investor. I'm not against expanding the current market north or anywhere else. My general point is that the region, including the expanded market, is more than capable of financially sustaining an NFL franchise. How do I know? It has done so for half a century. The current owner is in the middle of the pack when calculating the operating income. The way the NFL financial system is structured a large portion of the revenue is shared to the point that markets such as Pitt, Green Bay, Balt, Minnesota, Cinc, St. Louis, Oakland are more than capable of competing with the bigger markets if the teams are managed properly. Whether the Bills remain in the region depends not on the issue whether the team is viable here, because it is. The issue is decided by who wins the bid when the team is auctioned off after the owner passess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I'm not against expanding the current market north or anywhere else. My general point is that the region, including the expanded market, is more than capable of financially sustaining an NFL franchise. How do I know? It has done so for half a century. The current owner is in the middle of the pack when calculating the operating income. Due almost entirely to a lack of debt service due to Ralph's one-in-a-lifetime membership in the Foolish Club. We better hope anybody spending $800 million to buy the Bills does so out of petty cash... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) Due almost entirely to a lack of debt service due to Ralph's one-in-a-lifetime membership in the Foolish Club. We better hope anybody spending $800 million to buy the Bills does so out of petty cash... A portion of the original discussion dealt to why the Bills struggled so much compared to similar or somewhat similar sized markets. I and a number of people made the point that the makeup of the market had little to do with the long term failings on the field. Poor decisions made by the owner in staffing the football operations and organizational operation are the primary reason why the team's historical record is more losing than winning. I stand by that obvious observation. I agree that if the Bills remain in the region after the owner passess there are going to be financial challenges. A lot of those challenges will be due to the fact that the current owner has not contributed a dime to upgrading the stadium while other owners have made sizeable contributions to either a new or upgraded facility. KC should be the model for how to handle the upgrading of a facility. There is no doubt that ticket prices will have to go up if the team remains. And there is no doubt that the public entities will have to agree to bear the brunt of those costs. There are major financial challenges that will need to be addressed when this owner leaves the scene. What I know for certain is that it won't get done if a similar type of owner replaces the current owner who only believes in taking out and not putting in to make the project work. Edited May 25, 2012 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsrhody Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Essentially the Steelers have done everything right and the Bills have done everything wrong (at least in the past decade). These to franchises serve as a perfect, "what to do" vs "what not to do" in smaller markets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canks Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 buffalo is closer to canada, that's why we have the home game in Toronto and cities like Pittsburg and NY don't. DUH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 A portion of the original discussion dealt to why the Bills struggled so much compared to similar or somewhat similar sized markets. And I continue to contend that the OP's point that Pittsburgh and Buffalo are similar markets is flawed: 2010 Metro Area Personal Income ($ Billions) New York City__________$1,028.6 Los Angeles_____________$561.1 Chicago________________$420.1 Washington_____________$321.6 Philadelphia_____________$281.8 Dallas__________________$264.2 Houston________________$263.0 San Francisco-Oakland___$257.5 Boston_________________$252.7 Miami__________________$233.0 Atlanta_________________$202.6 Seattle_________________$169.3 Detroit_________________$163.9 Minneapolis_____________$153.8 Phoenix________________$151.7 San Diego______________$141.7 Baltimore_______________$133.4 Denver_________________$119.7 St. Louis_______________$116.9 Tampa_________________$103.2 Pittsburgh_____________$100.7 Kansas City_____________$84.8 Cincinnati_______________$84.6 Cleveland_______________$84.1 Milwaukee/Green Bay_____$78.3 Charlotte________________$68.6 Indianapolis______________$68.3 Nashville________________$64.0 Jacksonville______________$53.3 New Orleans_____________$49.9 BUFFALO_______________$43.4 Source: U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 And I continue to contend that the OP's point that Pittsburgh and Buffalo are similar markets is flawed: 2010 Metro Area Personal Income ($ Billions) New York City__________$1,028.6 Los Angeles_____________$561.1 Chicago________________$420.1 Washington_____________$321.6 Philadelphia_____________$281.8 Dallas__________________$264.2 Houston________________$263.0 San Francisco-Oakland___$257.5 Boston_________________$252.7 Miami__________________$233.0 Atlanta_________________$202.6 Seattle_________________$169.3 Detroit_________________$163.9 Minneapolis_____________$153.8 Phoenix________________$151.7 San Diego______________$141.7 Baltimore_______________$133.4 Denver_________________$119.7 St. Louis_______________$116.9 Tampa_________________$103.2 Pittsburgh_____________$100.7 Kansas City_____________$84.8 Cincinnati_______________$84.6 Cleveland_______________$84.1 Milwaukee/Green Bay_____$78.3 Charlotte________________$68.6 Indianapolis______________$68.3 Nashville________________$64.0 Jacksonville______________$53.3 New Orleans_____________$49.9 BUFFALO_______________$43.4 Source: U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis You are missing my point that the Bills' market, including the added canadian market, is more than adequate to sustain an NFL franchise. I'm not debating the issue that the Pitts market is wealthier than the Buffalo market. The current owner has made approximately a quarter of a billion $$$ over the last eight years. He has done just fine in the market he so much whines about. I'm also acknowledging the obviouos that if the team stays in the region when he leaves the scene there is going to be a major change in how the team is operated. For one, the ticket pricing is going to go up. The canadian marketing will also have to be more aggressively tapped into. There is nothing unique about the financial challenges that a Buffalo team has to contend with. Your chart deals with the personal income of the various regions. That doesn't necessarily translate into how a particular franchise is supported. San Diego could possibly be moved to LA because of financial issues. Phoenix is not known for its rabid support of its franchise. Although your chart indicates that Cincinatti has a higher per capita income than the Buffalo region it doesn't compare to the support of the western NY team. The primary point that I am making in these numerous posts is that I believe that an NFL franchise is very viable in the region after the departure of the current owner. You apparently don't accept that position. If that is the case then we have to respectfully disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yungmack Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 The Steelers used to be the Clippers of the NFL, a consistent loser decade after decade. Things didn't change until the "ownership" changed, That is, until Art Rooney turned things over to his son. It was under Dan that the modern Steelers were born, the model franchise we're talking about here. Let's hope the next owner of the Bills does the same thing, while keeping the team in WNY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 The Steelers used to be the Clippers of the NFL, a consistent loser decade after decade. Things didn't change until the "ownership" changed, That is, until Art Rooney turned things over to his son. It was under Dan that the modern Steelers were born, the model franchise we're talking about here. Let's hope the next owner of the Bills does the same thing, while keeping the team in WNY. Excellent post. Some people believe that a post Ralph Wilson team in western NY is not viable. I strenuously don't accept that premise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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