Moorman being challenged

[justnzane]

You have absolutely no evidence to support this. I defy you to breakdown the game logs to prove what I KNOW to be a completely false statement: that drives more frequently stalled in parts of the field more favorable to inside-the-20 punts during a specific period of time in Moorman's career.

 

Plus, anyone who watched the Bills last year and the year before can attest to the fact that Moorman flat out MISSED opportunities to put one in the coffin corner by chronically booting it into the endzone.

 

 

http://espn.go.com/n...7/brian-moorman

 

 

2005-2008 all over 30% inside the 20. when you add inside the 20 plus touchbacks, those four seasons add up to 40% of his punts as well as last season. I am not arguing that his coffin corner accuracy last year was subpar, but I argue that inside 20 punts come from field position between the 40's which is common sense as you add 40 yards (conservatively) to a punt from such a field position and it will be inside the 20.

 

However, your closeminded approach to a logical statement that I made before shows how little you actually understand, and how unreceptive you are to new ideas based upon facts and logic. So enjoy your 5-2 defense and double-wing offense

Edited June 6, 2012 by justnzane

[K-9]

http://espn.go.com/n...7/brian-moorman

 

 

2005-2008 all over 30% inside the 20. when you add inside the 20 plus touchbacks, those four seasons add up to 40% of his punts as well as last season. I am not arguing that his coffin corner accuracy last year was subpar, but I argue that inside 20 punts come from field position between the 40's which is common sense as you add 40 yards (conservatively) to a punt from such a field position and it will be inside the 20.

 

However, your closeminded approach to a logical statement that I made before shows how little you actually understand, and how unreceptive you are to new ideas based upon facts and logic. So enjoy your 5-2 defense and double-wing offense

 

Haha. Double-wing offense. Pop Warner would be proud.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[The Big Cat]

http://espn.go.com/n...7/brian-moorman

 

 

2005-2008 all over 30% inside the 20. when you add inside the 20 plus touchbacks, those four seasons add up to 40% of his punts as well as last season. I am not arguing that his coffin corner accuracy last year was subpar, but I argue that inside 20 punts come from field position between the 40's which is common sense as you add 40 yards (conservatively) to a punt from such a field position and it will be inside the 20.

 

However, your closeminded approach to a logical statement that I made before shows how little you actually understand, and how unreceptive you are to new ideas based upon facts and logic. So enjoy your 5-2 defense and double-wing offense

 

None of this has anything to do with your bogus statement about drives stalling in parts of the field more conducive to punt inside the 20 when Kelly Holcomb was QB.

This "logic" - as you call it - is based on some wild premise YOU invented and still fail to substantiate.

 

The only thing these stats indicate is the very same downturn In Moorman's performance that I cited more than a year ago as cause for severance.

[justnzane]

None of this has anything to do with your bogus statement about drives stalling in parts of the field more conducive to punt inside the 20 when Kelly Holcomb was QB.

This "logic" - as you call it - is based on some wild premise YOU invented and still fail to substantiate.

 

The only thing these stats indicate is the very same downturn In Moorman's performance that I cited more than a year ago as cause for severance.

 

ok so tell me where you think the drive stalls for most inside the 20 punts? Use logic there, instead of your dandy convenience of ignorance.

[The Big Cat]

ok so tell me where you think the drive stalls for most inside the 20 punts? Use logic there, instead of your dandy convenience of ignorance.

 

Logic: a punt inside the 20 must have originated from between the 40's. That part makes a little bit of sense. What DOESN'T make sense, is the concurrent insinuation you've made that punts NOT inside the 20 originate from OUTSIDE the 40's--your argument that Moorman's dip in production was somehow Fitz's fault for not ending drives inside the 40's.

 

THAT...MAKES...NO...SENSE

[Offside Number 76]

Logic: a punt inside the 20 must have originated from between the 40's. That part makes a little bit of sense. What DOESN'T make sense, is the concurrent insinuation you've made that punts NOT inside the 20 originate from OUTSIDE the 40's--your argument that Moorman's dip in production was somehow Fitz's fault for not ending drives inside the 40's.

 

THAT...MAKES...NO...SENSE

 

On top of that, as you said above, we've seen far too many touchbacks in the last two or three years. That has nothing to do with where a drive ended and everything to do with not punting for the coffin corner well.

[eball]

I'm not sure what you two (Big Cat, justnzane) are arguing about, but anyone who won't acknowledge Moorman has been in decline over the past three seasons just isn't paying attention.

[The Big Cat]

On top of that, as you said above, we've seen far too many touchbacks in the last two or three years. That has nothing to do with where a drive ended and everything to do with not punting for the coffin corner well.

 

Exactly. Moorman had plenty of opportunities to pin opponents deep last year. And instead, he just booted it.

 

I'm not sure what you two (Big Cat, justnzane) are arguing about, but anyone who won't acknowledge Moorman has been in decline over the past three seasons just isn't paying attention.

 

A drum I've been pounding for over a year now, believe me. Sadly, in this thread, to convince others of what is PLAIN TO SEE, I've found myself getting mired in sticky, seemingly irrelevant technicalities when all we really need to know is quite self evident: if we worthy replacement for Moorman on deck, now's the time to pull the trigger.

 

But most importantly: props to ALL us Bills fans. We're having a very nuanced debate...about our punter. Ever question whether or not we care? Me neither!

[KD in CA]

I'm not sure what you two (Big Cat, justnzane) are arguing about, but anyone who won't acknowledge Moorman has been in decline over the past three seasons just isn't paying attention.

 

People here are a little odd when it comes to Moorman. Frankly, I would be thrilled if Powell continued to look good enough to take over the job this season. Moorman is 36, his career is winding down and he will need to be replaced in the next 2 years anyway. It would be foolish to bypass a guy who can be your long term replacement.

[Billsrhody]

Love how we got some heated debate on here on the topic of punters. I for one am a huge Moorman fan. he's been one of my favorite bills for the past decade. The fact is, that Moorman is no longer one of the elite punters in the league. Actually if you look at the numbers from last year, he was 25th in the league in net yds, and 24th in the league in punts inside the 20.

 

2011 Punting Stats

 

I would love to see Moorman retire as a bill, but if this Powell kid can improve our punting unit, it would be foolish not to let him take over.

[Offside Number 76]

Love how we got some heated debate on here on the topic of punters. I for one am a huge Moorman fan. he's been one of my favorite bills for the past decade. The fact is, that Moorman is no longer one of the elite punters in the league. Actually if you look at the numbers from last year, he was 25th in the league in net yds, and 24th in the league in punts inside the 20.

 

2011 Punting Stats

 

I would love to see Moorman retire as a bill, but if this Powell kid can improve our punting unit, it would be foolish not to let him take over.

 

Same site indicates that he led the league in guess what? Touchbacks.

 

I really like him, too. I think he has been a good player and remains a good man, but like you and others, I think it's time for the Bills to move on if they can.

[Mark Long Beach]

Same site indicates that he led the league in guess what? Touchbacks.

 

I really like him, too. I think he has been a good player and remains a good man, but like you and others, I think it's time for the Bills to move on if they can.

 

If I owned any Bills jersey of late, it would be Moorman's. But it's close if not the time to move on. But not just 'if they can' but if it's worth it to.

[justnzane]

Logic: a punt inside the 20 must have originated from between the 40's. That part makes a little bit of sense. What DOESN'T make sense, is the concurrent insinuation you've made that punts NOT inside the 20 originate from OUTSIDE the 40's--your argument that Moorman's dip in production was somehow Fitz's fault for not ending drives inside the 40's.

 

THAT...MAKES...NO...SENSE

I haven't insinuated that. All I have said was a majority of the punts inside the 20 come from a field position in between the 40's, hence a punter with a higher % of inside 20 punts has an offense that dies out more frequently in between the 40's. I haven't stated anything to directly say that punts that land outside of the 20 must come from behind the offenses 40. However, it is possible that it can occur, and in fact it is most likely that punts that are not in the 20 (or touchbacks) come from behind the offenses' 40.

 

What I originally claimed is that inside 20 is a BS stat because it is strongly contingent on where the offensive drive dies. I have actually agreed with you that his directional punting has been ****, but also pointed out that Moorman had his highest punting gross average last year as well. So maybe he still has a bit in the tank.

 

You got me going by dismissing my original claim without considering the merit behind it

 

Whereever you are coming up with me blaming Fitz for Moorman's production is crap. The fact that he has a higher amount of touchbacks is strictly on his coffin corner kicking. What I did say was that a kicker with a higher number of inside the 20 punts likely has an offense that dies out near midfield more frequently. That is not me blaming Fitz and the O as it is Moorman's job to keep it from hitting the end zone as he should have more inside the 20 punts, not less.

 

I hope that whichever punter is best is on the franchise, and that the other is bagging groceries in Nez Perce.

[The Big Cat]

I haven't insinuated that. All I have said was a majority of the punts inside the 20 come from a field position in between the 40's, hence a punter with a higher % of inside 20 punts has an offense that dies out more frequently in between the 40's. I haven't stated anything to directly say that punts that land outside of the 20 must come from behind the offenses 40. However, it is possible that it can occur, and in fact it is most likely that punts that are not in the 20 (or touchbacks) come from behind the offenses' 40.

 

What I originally claimed is that inside 20 is a BS stat because it is strongly contingent on where the offensive drive dies. I have actually agreed with you that his directional punting has been ****, but also pointed out that Moorman had his highest punting gross average last year as well. So maybe he still has a bit in the tank.

 

You got me going by dismissing my original claim without considering the merit behind it

 

Whereever you are coming up with me blaming Fitz for Moorman's production is crap. The fact that he has a higher amount of touchbacks is strictly on his coffin corner kicking. What I did say was that a kicker with a higher number of inside the 20 punts likely has an offense that dies out near midfield more frequently. That is not me blaming Fitz and the O as it is Moorman's job to keep it from hitting the end zone as he should have more inside the 20 punts, not less.

 

I hope that whichever punter is best is on the franchise, and that the other is bagging groceries in Nez Perce.

 

You did insinuate that, actually:

 

Then you are a fool. I explained why it is a BS stat on the basis of how good your team's offense is. Moorman's highest % of in 20 punts were during the Holcomb/JPL/Trentative era, where the offense would die out at midfield, frequently. Inside 20 is more of a stat of how often did the offense die out in between the 40's.

 

And if you're not buying inside the 20 in a vacuum (how's that one man crusade going?), then take a look at the averages that I posted in this thread three weeks ago:

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/146054-moorman-being-challenged/page__view__findpost__p__2472299

[justnzane]

You did insinuate that, actually:

 

 

 

And if you're not buying inside the 20 in a vacuum (how's that one man crusade going?), then take a look at the averages that I posted in this thread three weeks ago:

 

http://forums.twobil...ost__p__2472299

 

 

holy crap, you are unbelievable. I agree with the stats you are posting, in fact i linked the same ones. What I am debating is the fact that you keep misreading and in turn distorting what I say.

 

I never said that all inside the 20 punts must come from the 40's. Stop saying that I have. What I did say is that the inside the 20 stat is bull as it is more of a guage on how often the offense stalls in between the 40's as that is the most likely place that inside the 20 punts come from. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

:wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash:

Edited June 7, 2012 by justnzane

[The Big Cat]

holy crap, you are unbelievable. I agree with the stats you are posting, in fact i linked the same ones. What I am debating is the fact that you keep misreading and in turn distorting what I say.

 

I never said that all inside the 20 punts must come from the 40's. Stop saying that I have. What I did say is that the inside the 20 stat is bull as it is more of a guage on how often the offense stalls in between the 40's as that is the most likely place that inside the 20 punts come from. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

:wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash:

 

And that assumption is monumentally flawed, for reasons innumerable.

[justnzane]

And that assumption is monumentally flawed, for reasons innumerable.

 

Well, enlighten me oh holy one on how this is so monumentally flawed?

 

Because what I am saying seems like a simple premise:

 

 

 

1. The average punt goes roughly 45 yards
2. 45 yards away from goal-line is opp 45, 45 yards from the 20 is the own 35
3. For a generality sake, I say that most punts inside the 20 are from in between the 40's, which accounts for the ones just outside of FG range
4. Punters that have a high percentage of their punts inside the 20 as a result of the offensive drive dying out between the 40's at a higher than normal frequency.

So where in this am I wrong?

Edited June 7, 2012 by justnzane

[Offside Number 76]

This is getting idiotic. Look at the link posted above by Billsrhody and the stats there. Leads the league in touchbacks, fair catch rate is horrible, return yards are high, net yards aren't great by any means.

 

Snipe at each other all you want, but the smart move is to replace everyone's favorite punter if the new guy can do better.

[Kiwi Bills fan]

geez.

[KOKBILLS]

anyone who won't acknowledge Moorman has been in decline over the past three seasons just isn't paying attention.

 

Agreed 100%...

 

 

Sadly, in this thread, to convince others of what is PLAIN TO SEE, I've found myself getting mired in sticky, seemingly irrelevant technicalities when all we really need to know is quite self evident: if we worthy replacement for Moorman on deck, now's the time to pull the trigger.

 

 

Again...Agreed...100%...