Pocket Passer vs. Athletic Scramblers

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Not a great example.

 

Manning struggled when his top receivers went down. He may have gotten knocked around a bit (or it seemed-as everyone was searching for a reason for his bad mid-season). But in fact, his accuracy did not suffer at all--he completed 66% of his passes for a career high 4700 yards and tied his 2nd highest TD total of his career.

 

His line, actually, was outstanding--he was sacked only 16 times despite an insane 679 attempts (more than 100 more than he has ever attempted). When you have no running game, every defense you face is pretty much going to tee off on your QB every down. He had incredible protection, I would say.

 

You may be right that Manning is not a great example or at least hard to argue. He has a lightning ability to read the D and an incredibly quick release, which is why he hasn't been sacked much despite Bill Polian publically acknowledging that a mistake was made when the Colts didn't draft to improve their line.

 

Manning's accuracy last year was 68.8%. A 2.5% change in accuracy is significant.

One explanation would be the quality of his receivers declined

When I've seen the Colts play I would say they have a good crop of backup receivers (if we do, why wouldn't we expect that of a team with Polian in the mix?) My observation has been that Payton has less time to throw than last year, and that perception is reinforced by Polian's comments on failure to draft for the line.

 

It is just my observation, and I could be wrong.

[Mr. WEO]

I think the guys who were considered scramblers or athletic eventually became better pocket passers. John Elway was considered that early in his career, but eventually relied less on his legs and more on his intelligence to win games (getting a running game helped, too). Randall Cunningham was a scrambler, but later didn't always take off from the pocket when things got hairy. Michael Vick is doing the same thing - at the first sign of trouble, he used to take off. He still does that a little bit, but you can see him being more patient and relying on his OL to protect and his receivers to get open.

 

Vince Young had a good run in 2006-07, but hasn't been able to prove he's mature enough to handle adversity. If another team gives him a chance, I'd be very interested in seeing how he does.

 

I've always wondered why the "athletic" QBs never had great success in the NFL and why the Superbowl-winning QBs are usually the "pocket passer" types. Perhaps it's because the pocket-passers need to understand how to read defenses more and call/adjust plays based on that knowledge (Manning, Brady, Brees, Ryan) and are thus more successful than the guys whose 3rd option is to run? Somehow, I'd think it has something to do with defenses planning for the QB to run (maybe dedicating a LB to shadow him) and taking away that 3rd option.

I think with guys like Vick, it's no tthat they can't read the defense, it's that they don't know their own offense well enough. A QB needs to be able to go through his progressions to find the open man. He doesn't have much time to do this so hw has to know exactly where all of his options should be on the field. Vick looks for one guy, sees he's covered, then takes off.

 

You may be right that Manning is not a great example or at least hard to argue. He has a lightning ability to read the D and an incredibly quick release, which is why he hasn't been sacked much despite Bill Polian publically acknowledging that a mistake was made when the Colts didn't draft to improve their line.

 

Manning's accuracy last year was 68.8%. A 2.5% change in accuracy is significant.

One explanation would be the quality of his receivers declined

When I've seen the Colts play I would say they have a good crop of backup receivers (if we do, why wouldn't we expect that of a team with Polian in the mix?) My observation has been that Payton has less time to throw than last year, and that perception is reinforced by Polian's comments on failure to draft for the line.

 

It is just my observation, and I could be wrong.

That is not a statisically significant difference. Manning's numbers are at odds with Polian's comments. That O-line has been protecting Manning very well for many years. I think Polain's just covering for a struggling Manning. It's a bizarre comment. Manning's problem is that he has been surrounded by some of the best receiving talent (including TEs) for most of his career. When he didn't have that, he struggled. Meanwhile, guys like Brady and Rivers do fine spreading the ball around to retreads and castoffs.

[WVUFootball29]

I should have known better than to waste my time posting when you've got guys like crayonz and Beebe's Kid who would turn this into a white and black thing. BTW ieatBFinIndiana, Elway never rushed for over 304 yards in a season so that would hardly classify him as an athletic/scrambling QB.

 

While I admit that maybe I should have used the term scrambling more so than athletic since it was interpreted differently than I intended my point remains valid, scrambling QBs do not win in the NFL. Guys who rely on pure athleticism at the QB position do not win in the NFL (Steve Young being the outlier here, but was a great passer in his own right). Being mobile in the pocket is great for a QB, but that does not classify them as an athletic/scrambler in this argument (again sorry for the misunderstanding) and at the end of the day they are still making their money plays from the pocket.

 

Addressing the "old war/last war" analysis theory, the super athletic, scrambling passing QB revolution has been coming for years and I have yet to see it in the NFL. It works in college where the talent levels between two teams varies greatly and one super athlete can dominate the game, but it has yet to work at the NFL level. To plan for the future that has supposedly been coming for 20 years now would be fool-hardy. At the end of the day, my money is on the QB who can think on his feet vs the guy who tries to beat you with his feet.

[akm0404]

The top names on Buffalo fan’s lists are Andrew Luck and Cam Newton; which brings about the debate of which type of QB the Bills should select.

 

I don't think anyone is debating who to pick in a scenario where both are available. Pretty certain that not one person has Cam ahead of Luck on their draft board.

[BuffaloWings]

I don't think anyone is debating who to pick in a scenario where both are available. Pretty certain that not one person has Cam ahead of Luck on their draft board.

It doesn't matter, anyway. Since Luck will not be available, the debate then centers around whether or not to draft Newton or wait for the best available "pocket passer". We might as well start planning for that. If by some miracle Luck falls to #3, then we'll know someone up high is looking down on the Bills (for once).

[ieatcrayonz]

I should have known better than to waste my time posting when you've got guys like crayonz and Beebe's Kid who would turn this into a white and black thing. BTW ieatBFinIndiana, Elway never rushed for over 304 yards in a season so that would hardly classify him as an athletic/scrambling QB.

 

While I admit that maybe I should have used the term scrambling more so than athletic since it was interpreted differently than I intended my point remains valid, scrambling QBs do not win in the NFL. Guys who rely on pure athleticism at the QB position do not win in the NFL (Steve Young being the outlier here, but was a great passer in his own right). Being mobile in the pocket is great for a QB, but that does not classify them as an athletic/scrambler in this argument (again sorry for the misunderstanding) and at the end of the day they are still making their money plays from the pocket.

 

Addressing the "old war/last war" analysis theory, the super athletic, scrambling passing QB revolution has been coming for years and I have yet to see it in the NFL. It works in college where the talent levels between two teams varies greatly and one super athlete can dominate the game, but it has yet to work at the NFL level. To plan for the future that has supposedly been coming for 20 years now would be fool-hardy. At the end of the day, my money is on the QB who can think on his feet vs the guy who tries to beat you with his feet.

 

So now rushing yards indicates whether a QB is a scrambler or not? John Elway was a pure pocket passer? Hasselbeck is a pocket passer? Brees? Ok very good. So are you saying Newton runs for too many yards? Or are you saying he is inaccurate as a passer?

 

Being mobile in the pocket is great for a QB, but that does not classify them as an athletic/scrambler in this argument

 

Then what does?

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

I am enjoying this thread, in part of course because I agree with the OP. I would not presume to say that a Mike Vick (or a Cam Newton) can have no success in the NFL, because clearly they can in spurts. The big question, though, is whether, when faced with a pro D that actively takes away their scrambles (think of what Bill Belly did to Flutie in 1998-1999), they are able to stand in the pocket and deliver the ball. Kordell Stewart eventually failed there, as did Shaun King and, for a while, Donovan McNabb and Randall Cunningham. This usually comes out in the playoffs, and all the fun runs during the regular season against lower-level teams who lose contain are forgotten.

 

A QB needs some mobility, but in the end he needs to be able to stand in the pocket and use the other weapons in the team's arsenal. As much as I generally dislike martial metaphors in football, there is an apropos one here. The commander of a unit is actually lightly armed; his job is not so much to fight himself as to lead and direct the others. He should neither want or need to do it all himself, because he needs to save himself to continue leading.

[WVUFootball29]

 

So now rushing yards indicates whether a QB is a scrambler or not? John Elway was a pure pocket passer? Hasselbeck is a pocket passer? Brees? Ok very good. So are you saying Newton runs for too many yards? Or are you saying he is inaccurate as a passer?

 

 

 

Then what does?

 

Where do you make the majority of your living as a QB? In the pocket or on the run? Vick, Flutie, etc making more plays on the run and outside the pocket = scrambler. My beef with Newton and his type of QB, is that when they can't make a big play down field, they run and try to use their athletic ability to their advantage instead of spreading the ball around making defenses respect all receivers. Newton has gotten away with it in college, many QBs have, but it doesn't work at the NFL level.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

I can think of HOF QBs who became so because they overcame the desire to scramble out of the pocket... Terry Bradshaw, for example, had to learn to settle down and make the throws. It took him several years.

[ieatcrayonz]

I am enjoying this thread, in part of course because I agree with the OP. I would not presume to say that a Mike Vick (or a Cam Newton) can have no success in the NFL, because clearly they can in spurts. The big question, though, is whether, when faced with a pro D that actively takes away their scrambles (think of what Bill Belly did to Flutiewhite dude for a change in 1998-1999), they are able to stand in the pocket and deliver the ball. Kordell Stewart black dude eventually failed there, as did Shaun King black dude and, for a while, Donovan McNabb black dude and Randall Cunninghamblack dude. This usually comes out in the playoffs, and all the fun runs during the regular season against lower-level teams who lose contain are forgotten.

 

A QB needs some mobility, but in the end he needs to be able to stand in the pocket and use the other weapons in the team's arsenal. As much as I generally dislike martial metaphors in football, there is an apropos one here. The commander of a unit is actually lightly armed; his job is not so much to fight himself as to lead and direct the others. He should neither want or need to do it all himself, because he needs to save himself to continue leading.

So you're at least partly saying that Newton is not accurate as a passer? I see that with Vick and last year with Tebow. I don't see it with Newton.

 

P.S. Shaun King was a scrambler?

Edited January 6, 2011 by ieatcrayonz

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

So you're at least partly saying that Newton is not accurate as a passer? I see that with Vick and last year with Tebow. I don't see it with Newton.

 

P.S. Shaun King was a scrambler?

 

I am not saying whether Newton is accurate or not. I am saying that if he will be a successful pro (which I do not discount) he will have to learn to stay in the pocket and make the throws rather than head off running.

 

And yes, I am saying that Shaun King for Tampa (several years ago) was a scrambler. Or am I getting his name wrong?

[ieatcrayonz]

Where do you make the majority of your living as a QB? In the pocket or on the run? Vick, Flutie, etc making more plays on the run and outside the pocket = scrambler. My beef with Newton and his type of QB, is that when they can't make a big play down field, they run and try to use their athletic ability to their advantage instead of spreading the ball around making defenses respect all receivers. Newton has gotten away with it in college, many QBs have, but it doesn't work at the NFL level.

So Newton is an inaccurate passer?

[WVUFootball29]

Add one more race comment to this thread and I'm closing it crayonz. Either come up with a good argument or disappear.

[ieatcrayonz]

I am not saying whether Newton is accurate or not. I am saying that if he will be a successful pro (which I do not discount) he will have to learn to stay in the pocket and make the throws rather than head off running.

 

And yes, I am saying that Shaun King for Tampa (several years ago) was a scrambler. Or am I getting his name wrong?

Do you think Newton will be able to learn and adjust or is he not smart enough to adjust like Bradshaw who is clearly a genius?

 

Maybe I am not recalling Shaun King correctly, and I realize he was black and is probably still black, but I recall him as relatively slow with a strong arm. Was Doug Williams a scrambler now too?

 

Add one more race comment to this thread and I'm closing it crayonz. Either come up with a good argument or disappear.

Dude re-read your own posts.

[WVUFootball29]

Where did I make this a black and white issue? You were the only one to bring it up

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

Do you think Newton will be able to learn and adjust or is he not smart enough to adjust like Bradshaw who is clearly a genius?

 

Maybe I am not recalling Shaun King correctly, and I realize he was black and is probably still black, but I recall him as relatively slow with a strong arm. Was Doug Williams a scrambler now too?

 

 

Dude re-read your own posts.

 

 

I think there is no reason why Newton cannot adjust. I am merely saying that he will have to if he wants to succeed in the pros.

 

I also decisively reject your insinuation of racism. Doug Williams was a great pocket passer, as was James Harris. Both we ill-served for much of their careers. I would take the 2011 versions of either of them in a heartbeat.

[ieatcrayonz]

Where did I make this a black and white issue? You were the only one to bring it up

Starting with this year’s NFL Playoffs quarterbacks; out of 12 players, only 1 (Michael Vick) is truly considered to an athletic quarterback. The rest: Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, Matt Cassel, Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees, Matt Ryan, Matt Hasselbeck (if healthy), and Jay Cutler fall more into the mold of the Pocket Passer. Not very good odds for a scrambling type QB.

 

You created a list with one black guy and another list with 11 white guys.

 

Vick is certainly unique so I understand that part. But the other 11 guys are not exactly clones. If there is a spectrum with Vick on one side and say Flacco on the other, would Brees and Hasselbeck be closer to Vick or Flacco?

[WVUFootball29]

You created a list with one black guy and another list with 11 white guys.

 

Vick is certainly unique so I understand that part. But the other 11 guys are not exactly clones. If there is a spectrum with Vick on one side and say Flacco on the other, would Brees and Hasselbeck be closer to Vick or Flacco?

 

Yes, the playoff starting QBs for the year. Sorry I was racist...

 

Flacco, they make their money in the pocket, not on the run.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

There are at least two personalities behind ieatcrayonz—one is the "whee, look at me, I am so wild and crazy, I make stuff up and recycle a 30-year-old gag that worked for Emily Litella" person and the other is an obsessive fixator on individual points in discussion, which is supposed to indicate the depth of his thought.

 

I think I will have to put both of them on ignore.

[Dorkington]

The Bills don't have a proper line for a proper pocket passer. This is why Fitz works out ok with us right now, he can scramble/move around effectively when things break down.

 

Until we get a solid line, getting a statue of a QB will not help this team. Either we have a bad line and an athletic (or even semi athletic) QB, or we have a good, solid line, and have a pocket QB.