Logical Reasoning Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Didn't Joe Montana win a superbowl by being a "captain checkdown". Some reasons to name Edwards the starter now: 1. He has more experience than the other quarterbacks 2. A new offensive system requires more reps and allows timing with the receivers 3. He is more accurate than the other three 4. Takes away the tension surrounding the team regarding this question of who will start. (supplement) 5. He can scramble, has some quickness and appears stronger. 6. There aren't enough preseason games to give valid assessments. 7. Being a checkdown qb was a large piece of the west coast offense. 8. If its Fitz or Edwards, I go with Edwards and neither Brown nor Brohm are ready. Bring it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Didn't Joe Montana win a superbowl by being a "captain checkdown". Actually, no. He did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHFO Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 not this again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabe Northern Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 They are gong to make him "win the job" to regain his confidence and win back the locker room. But he is the starter, let there be no doubt about that. Also agree about short, quick passes playing to his strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Two years ago when the Bills started 5-1, the Edwards-Montana comparisons were naive. Now, it's just plain stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glass To The Arson Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 At this point - It's Brohm or Edwards. I think we are surprised and Brohm wins the starting gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logical Reasoning Posted June 14, 2010 Author Share Posted June 14, 2010 Two years ago when the Bills started 5-1, the Edwards-Montana comparisons were naive. Now, it's just plain stupid. My thoughts may have been a bit vague but it was more within the idea of a west coast offensive and not so much Montana. Touche'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Philster Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Actually, no. He did not. correct For one thing, no player has ever won an NFL game, let alone a Super Bowl, on his own For another, he had a progression of reads to follow in every play,,,he didn't check down..he followed his progressions Also, Montana wasn't caught staring down his receivers before the snap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsPhan Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Didn't Joe Montana win a superbowl by being a "captain checkdown". Bring it. No. Joe Montana didn't win "a" SB by being a "captain checkdown", he actually won 4 Super Bowls by being arguably the best QB in NFL history. But nice job comparing Trent Edwards to Joe Montana. What will your next post feature, comparing Lee Evans to Jerry Rice by asking us; "Didn't Jerry Rice have to catch passes from his captain checkdown, too?....and that's why Evans will break every record Rice set just as soon as Trent wins that elusive starting job, right??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthICE Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 What the !@#$? Seriously, how old are some of you? Montana definately did was NOT captain checkdown in any sense of the word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canbuffan34 Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Didn't Joe Montana win a superbowl by being a "captain checkdown". Some reasons to name Edwards the starter now: 1. He has more experience than the other quarterbacks 2. A new offensive system requires more reps and allows timing with the receivers 3. He is more accurate than the other three 4. Takes away the tension surrounding the team regarding this question of who will start. (supplement) 5. He can scramble, has some quickness and appears stronger. 6. There aren't enough preseason games to give valid assessments. 7. Being a checkdown qb was a large piece of the west coast offense. 8. If its Fitz or Edwards, I go with Edwards and neither Brown nor Brohm are ready. Bring it. Joe Montana once said, "I don't throw darts at balloons, I throw balloons at darts" Trent never said anything cool like that therefore Trent cannot be compared to Montana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logical Reasoning Posted June 14, 2010 Author Share Posted June 14, 2010 No. Joe Montana didn't win "a" SB by being a "captain checkdown", he actually won 4 Super Bowls by being arguably the best QB in NFL history. But nice job comparing Trent Edwards to Joe Montana. What will your next post feature, comparing Lee Evans to Jerry Rice by asking us; "Didn't Jerry Rice have to catch passes from his captain checkdown, too?....and that's why Evans will break every record Rice set just as soon as Trent wins that elusive starting job, right??? Did you read the bullet points. If you are in the Buffalo region, Edwards has been strongly criticized for being a checkdown quarterback even when his completion percentages are high. Edwards is in no way comparable to Montana but the concept of checking down is not such a terrible thing because some of the best qbs have had to do that and have been successful. The Bills need to pick a qb sooner than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 What the !@#$? Seriously, how old are some of you? Montana definately did was NOT captain checkdown in any sense of the word. Montana was not a gunslinger in any sense of the word. The majority of his passes were 10 yards or less. However, he had one of the greatest offensive minds and teams around him. Rice, Taylor, Jones, Craig, etc. were all great after the catch. Rice and Taylor could take a slant 70 yards (do we even have slants in our playbook?) So saying Trent can't be a successful QB because he checks down or his arm strength is flat out wrong. The problem with Trent is he would rather take the safer play when a bigger one is available. At some point, you have to take chances and I think it is more mental with Trent than anything. Additionally, it is hard to fully believe in a guy in a guy who struggles to stay healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Didn't Joe Montana win a superbowl by being a "captain checkdown". No, he didn't. Montana hit the checkdowns when nothing else was available, but he spent a career hitting the short and medium range passes and the long-range ones when they were available. He went through all his options before he hit the checkdowns. Nobody has a problem with checkdowns. We have a problem with not looking at all your downfield options before going to the checkdown, and that's Trent's problem. In an era when it was a great deal harder to be a QB (look at QB stats from that era, they're much lower across the board, QB ratings, completion percentages, YPAs, TD to INT ratios, all much much lower back then. Yet Montana's career YPA was 7.4, very solid even today and excellent then. Throw out his two years with the Chiefs and it goes up to 7.5. Whereas Edwards, in this era when the rules have been amended to allow passing offenses to do well, Edwards has a career YPA of ... wait for it ... 6.7, lousy in any era. Lousy? Really? Yeah, lousy. Want proof? Go to the link below and then click on "AVG" at the top. Now last year's passing stats will be lined up in order of YPA. A bunch of the people at the top will be RBs who threw a pass or two on option plays or other trick plays (Fred Jackson is #3, actually). Scroll down and you'll get to the QBs. http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?arc...qualified=false Phillip Rivers is the top real QB at #12 with a YPA of 8.8. To see Trent, unfortunately, you have to scroll down a ways to #42 Among QBs with more than 150 attempts (I want to include Trent, who has 183), Trent comes in at #23, in a three-way tie with Josh Freeman and Chad Henne. On the upside, he beat out Todd Collins, Jake Delhomme, Ryan Fitzpatrick (sigh) and Alex Smith, who tied with 6.3. Montana and Trent do share some similarities. Both have noses, for instance. Both are male. Both played QB. I'm sure I could come up with some others if you gave me time to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 No, he didn't. Montana hit the checkdowns when nothing else was available, but he spent a career hitting the short and medium range passes and the long-range ones when they were available. He went through all his options before he hit the checkdowns. Nobody has a problem with checkdowns. We have a problem with not looking at all your downfield options before going to the checkdown, and that's Trent's problem. In an era when it was a great deal harder to be a QB (look at QB stats from that era, they're much lower across the board, QB ratings, completion percentages, YPAs, TD to INT ratios, all much much lower back then. Yet Montana's career YPA was 7.4, very solid even today and excellent then. Throw out his two years with the Chiefs and it goes up to 7.5. Whereas Edwards, in this era when the rules have been amended to allow passing offenses to do well, Edwards has a career YPA of ... wait for it ... 6.7, lousy in any era. http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?arc...qualified=false That link shows But it's a flawed stat. I'm not even comparing Edwards to Montana because that's insane. But the reason Montana was great was he was perfect for a West Coast offense. He got rid of the play quick (slants, quick out type plays that were for 7 yards or less) and let his playmakers do the rest. Rice and Taylor are 2 of the greatest run after the catch receivers in history. Brady also completes a ton of short passes. But the major difference between the Brady and Montanas of the world and Trent Edwards is the willingness to take shots down field. That's why Trent will struggle because teams don't have the threat of him beating them over the top. But I think most posters would be amazed at the numbers of passes Montana completed under 10 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 No, he didn't. Montana hit the checkdowns when nothing else was available, but he spent a career hitting the short and medium range passes and the long-range ones when they were available. He went through all his options before he hit the checkdowns. Nobody has a problem with checkdowns. We have a problem with not looking at all your downfield options before going to the checkdown, and that's Trent's problem. Furthermore, how often do you remember Montana "checking down" and throwing to a receiver with 15 yards of open space to gain? My memories of Trent is his eschewing an open receiver to thrown a three yard comeback on a 3rd and 5. Montana also trusted his WRs to make plays and threw the ball BEFORE they were open. Sometimes I think Trent needs to see some large separation before he even considers throwing. It's clear Montana had a near perfect situation for which to show all his skills. Trent has not had that opportunity. If Chan can get Trent to show all those skills, I give him a chance to succeed. (I'm not betting on him, but I'll be happy to lose that bet.) But let's pretend they are similar QBs in any meaningful way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Furthermore, how often do you remember Montana "checking down" and throwing to a receiver with 15 yards of open space to gain? My memories of Trent is his eschewing an open receiver to thrown a three yard comeback on a 3rd and 5. Montana also trusted his WRs to make plays and threw the ball BEFORE they were open. Sometimes I think Trent needs to see some large separation before he even considers throwing. It's clear Montana had a near perfect situation for which to show all his skills. Trent has not had that opportunity. If Chan can get Trent to show all those skills, I give him a chance to succeed. (I'm not betting on him, but I'll be happy to lose that bet.) But let's pretend they are similar QBs in any meaningful way. I think the problem here is checking down and throwing a short pass. Because of the WCO, the offense was designed to throw a ton of short passes. In the CFO (cluster f#ck offense), it seems that most of our routes were designed to be around 10 yards or more and Trent would just check down to something shorter. That's why I started to lose my faith in TE. sometimes, you just gotta take a shot and he is very slow to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderweb Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 But it's a flawed stat. I'm not even comparing Edwards to Montana because that's insane. But the reason Montana was great was he was perfect for a West Coast offense. He got rid of the play quick (slants, quick out type plays that were for 7 yards or less) and let his playmakers do the rest. Rice and Taylor are 2 of the greatest run after the catch receivers in history. Brady also completes a ton of short passes. But the major difference between the Brady and Montanas of the world and Trent Edwards is the willingness to take shots down field. That's why Trent will struggle because teams don't have the threat of him beating them over the top. But I think most posters would be amazed at the numbers of passes Montana completed under 10 yards. Ah, finally a response that correctly ID's thew west coast offense Montana lead so well. It was a short, run after the catch type of offense. Short, quick passes designed to allow the receiver to pick up additional yardage, if hit accurately in stride. Montana was a perfect fit. Very accurate and great touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Montana was not a gunslinger in any sense of the word. The majority of his passes were 10 yards or less. However, he had one of the greatest offensive minds and teams around him. Rice, Taylor, Jones, Craig, etc. were all great after the catch. Rice and Taylor could take a slant 70 yards (do we even have slants in our playbook?) So saying Trent can't be a successful QB because he checks down or his arm strength is flat out wrong. The problem with Trent is he would rather take the safer play when a bigger one is available. At some point, you have to take chances and I think it is more mental with Trent than anything. Additionally, it is hard to fully believe in a guy in a guy who struggles to stay healthy. A lot of the reason they could take a pass 70 yards is because Montana always hit him in stride. The past few years, the Bills have been one of the best in the league at YAC, so that's not the reason for our QBs low YPA figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Did you read the bullet points. If you are in the Buffalo region, Edwards has been strongly criticized for being a checkdown quarterback even when his completion percentages are high. Edwards is in no way comparable to Montana but the concept of checking down is not such a terrible thing because some of the best qbs have had to do that and have been successful. Absolutely, checking down is fine ... as long as you're going through your progressions before you do it. And as long as there are no recievers open downfield when you do it. And as long as you don't do it such a high percentage of the time that you become predictable. Unfortunately, Trent doesn't go through his progressions, does miss downfield guys open while checking down and does do it far too much. Let's hope that can change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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