ESPN Captain Checkdown Article

[Dr. Trooth]

We might not all agree on Trent... but, one thing I think we can all agree on is we had a head coach whose only use is as a career defensive back coach. It starts and ends there. To exacerbate the situation, you had an OC that really doesn't belong on the pro level (at least not yet) coaching any position. Add to that the offensive line issues, and it's the perfect storm. Aside from the Tampa game and the Colt's lay down game, Fitz didn't do much either. And, with Brohm, we don't have enough evidence to convict or aquit.

 

In reality, this is Edwards first crack with any real pro level offensive mind at his disposal, and probably his last chance to be be a starting QB in the NFL.

 

I don't know how it's going tho shake out... and I really don't care. There are four QBs going to camp, none of which I'm a "fanboy" of. But, one of them will be rubbing Hangrtner's ass on opening day. If it's Edwards, so be it. If not, so be it. I think he deserves a shot with the new staff just as much as the other three. If he shoots himself in the foot... so what. He won't have anyone left to blame but himself.

[RayFinkle]

I did not notice who it was posted by. To me what is important is the statistical proof of what we have been claiming for a long time. I wonder if this statistical proof will be enough to finally sway the supporters that did not believe that Trent was actually this bad. Everything about him that some have pointed to as a positive when really analyzed is a negative, especially things like his completion percentage.

The stats Tim provided were enlightening, but without a base to compare them against, it is kind of hard to determine how bad trent's stats really are. What is the league average for starting qbs? Then compare Trent to those stats...that would mean something.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

I thought the Last TE post went up a few days ago. Was the whole thing a rouse?

 

 

 

 

I have an idea. Perhaps Buddy and Chan can evaluate the 4 quarterbacks on the roster including their abilities to throw to different areas on the field and then decide which one is best for the team and offense they plan on running. I am willing to bet it will be TE, RF, BB or LB. But don't forget Action Jackson who had a phenomenal 158.3 passer rating last year!

 

Go Levi Fitzbrohmwards....

 

And GO BILLS!!!

[C.Biscuit97]

The stats Tim provided were enlightening, but without a base to compare them against, it is kind of hard to determine how bad trent's stats really are. What is the league average for starting qbs? Then compare Trent to those stats...that would mean something.

 

 

Great point. And I'm not comparing Trent to Brady in any way, but Brady completes a lot of short passes to Wes Walker and his rbs as well.

[San-O]

We might not all agree on Trent... but, one thing I think we can all agree on is we had a head coach whose only use is as a career defensive back coach. It starts and ends there. To exacerbate the situation, you had an OC that really doesn't belong on the pro level (at least not yet) coaching any position. Add to that the offensive line issues, and it's the perfect storm. Aside from the Tampa game and the Colt's lay down game, Fitz didn't do much either. And, with Brohm, we don't have enough evidence to convict or aquit.

 

In reality, this is Edwards first crack with any real pro level offensive mind at his disposal, and probably his last chance to be be a starting QB in the NFL.

 

I don't know how it's going tho shake out... and I really don't care. There are four QBs going to camp, none of which I'm a "fanboy" of. But, one of them will be rubbing Hangrtner's ass on opening day. If it's Edwards, so be it. If not, so be it. I think he deserves a shot with the new staff just as much as the other three. If he shoots himself in the foot... so what. He won't have anyone left to blame but himself.

 

 

Didn't Jauron fire Turk Schonert because Schonert wouldn't run the "pop-warner" offense Jauron wanted?

[Thurman#1]

Unless you lived under a rock last year or are a family member we all knew that Trent didn't have the arm or the stones to throw the ball down field. ESPN has confirmed what we already knew. Trent threw just over 1% of his passes over 40yds in the air and 25% of his passes BEHIND the line of scrimmage.

 

Don't give me the BS about the short passing game can work, and there are a tiny handful of weak armed QBs that have had success in this league blah blah blah. Without the threat of the deep pass the short game gets crushed. I hope that Gailey gets this concept. Personally I was tired of watching passes out to the RBs in the flat and defenders being on them before the ball even got there. WHY? Because they knew that Trent couldn't go deep effectively.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/...kick-in-spiller

 

 

 

That's a great article. Thanks for posting it.

 

Though I'm not an Edwards fan, I totally disagree with most of the conclusions you drew from it however, particularly your first sentence.

 

EDIT: Curious to find out what Lori finds out.

[lets_go_bills]

I can't help but think that Trent's conservative approach to the game has more to do with the way Jauron coached him than the way Trent plays football.

[thewildrabbit]

Stop overstating things. I'm ready to turn the page on Edwards but it's mainly because of the injuries. Checkdowns are an important of the game and are valuable. Edwards jsut doesn't have enough gunslinger in here.

 

But it's so funny how people just try and kill Edards. He was a 3rd round pick who was suppose to back up a 1st rounder. If Losman doesn't fail so miserably, Edwards probably would have started a few games and had Matt Schaub like trade value. At worst case, he could have been a really good backup QB like Frank Reich (who was a 3rd rounder as well). Edwards takes way too much heat.

If Jauron didn't entirely screw up everything he touched on the offense... plus his failure to hire any assistant coach with experience when he had the chance showed me he was a complete fool.

 

Chan Gailey is noted for being a good QB coach and should be able to coach up the current QB's, my problem is that even with better coaching the O line is still lacking 3 out 5 decent players, and both tackle positions are a joke.

 

Unless they upgrade the LT position with a proven player in a trade... it really won't matter which QB starts this season. Most NFL experts are picking the Bills to finish last in the NFL at 2-4 wins, I agree.

 

I wonder if the Bills pulled a Dolphin and hired another Cam Cameron...

[JustMaxx]

On one hand, the line was bad/injured, hard to go downfield

On the other hand, you had Evans and TO

 

On one hand, edwards has more INT's than TD's, been injured 5 times, and has been benched.

On the other hand, he was coached by jauron, and hes done better than many prominent QB's as compared to their early years.

 

On one hand, weve seen enough of him, give brohm a shot.

On the other hand, hes our most talented/experienced QB at this point.

 

 

 

IM GONNNAAAAAAAAAAAAAA GO CRAZYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

[Dr. Trooth]

Didn't Jauron fire Turk Schonert because Schonert wouldn't run the "pop-warner" offense Jauron wanted?

 

I think you're getting it. Jauron wanted a JV offense... and he had the clowns to deliver one too... Fairchild, Schonert, and VanPelt.

[San-O]

Most NFL experts are picking the Bills to finish last in the NFL at 2-4 wins, I agree.

 

I wonder if the Bills pulled a Dolphin and hired another Cam Cameron...

 

 

I hadn't seen that. Who is saying 2-4 wins? I give the Bills 1 additional win just for getting rid of Jauron.

[Guest dog14787]

Fitz didn't seem to have any issues getting the ball down the field, to the sidelines, and to targets other then the RB. Granted they were ugly, but he was able to throw the ball and avoid sacks. So we can blame the Oline to an extent but it still comes back to Edwards refusal or inability to do much of anything besides checkdown or get sacked.

 

 

Fitz has good wheels and handles himself very well under stress and its something you can't take away from him, it may look ugly, but he's fearless under pressure and gets the job done.

 

So with a bad O-line/sub par scheming/play calling Ryan Fitzpatrick is most likely the best QB for the job.

 

Captain Checkdown with her faster then a speeding bullet reflexes and new sidekick Lightning 28/ CJ Spiller just made Mary a very dangerous lady indeed.

 

As usual, great article by Mr. Tim Graham

[muffmonster]

So you were rooting for the Bills' starting QB to fail so you can been proven right on a message board? Wow, you must feel awesome now!!!

 

Do what now? It became apparent after the first few games that Trent was not the 2008 Trent and all the checkdown stuff started. At that point I wanted to see Fitz just to see something different. Trent fanboys have used the OLine as an excuse ever since his benching. Which is invalid due to the fact that Fitz was able to avoid pressure and release the football. Hence the canned response on 100's of edwards vs fitz threads.

 

At no point did I root against Edwards (or do I see what context gave you that idea) I just got tired of watching Trent dump the ball of on 3rd and long to our the RB who would get smacked immediately. Do you now feel awesome??

[Lori]

That's a great article. Thanks for posting it.

 

Though I'm not an Edwards fan, I totally disagree with most of the conclusions you drew from it however, particularly your first sentence.

 

EDIT: Curious to find out what Lori finds out.

I dropped that info into my last post:

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/index.php?...t&p=1852200

[C.Biscuit97]

If Jauron didn't entirely screw up everything he touched on the offense... plus his failure to hire any assistant coach with experience when he had the chance showed me he was a complete fool.

 

IMO, Jauron's biggest failure as a coach was his loyalty. By all accounts, Jauron is a very easy coach to work for. He should have hired an experienced OC (like Steve Maurucci (spelling) ) and not even touched the offense.

 

Chan Gailey is noted for being a good QB coach and should be able to coach up the current QB's, my problem is that even with better coaching the O line is still lacking 3 out 5 decent players, and both tackle positions are a joke.

 

I'm more optimistic than you obviously but you're overstating the oline problems. I think Meredith is the RT of the future and has a ton of potential. Also, the Hang man was playing next to 2 rookies and takes a lot of heat because of it. I expect the oline to be vastly improved though we do have a huge question mark at LT.

 

Unless they upgrade the LT position with a proven player in a trade... it really won't matter which QB starts this season. Most NFL experts are picking the Bills to finish last in the NFL at 2-4 wins, I agree.

 

I did a bet last year on here and the poster paid up when I was right. I love picking against "NFL experts," so $50 bet that the Bills win more than 4 games? 4 or less you win. 4 or more, I win. You in?

 

I wonder if the Bills pulled a Dolphin and hired another Cam Cameron...

 

You're kinda of being lazy with this point. Cameron had a terrible record as a head coach in his only previous job at Indiana. Gailey has a winning NFL record as a head coach, went to the playoffs twice, and had a winning record as a college head coach. There is no comparison between the two.

[C.Biscuit97]

Do what now? It became apparent after the first few games that Trent was not the 2008 Trent and all the checkdown stuff started. At that point I wanted to see Fitz just to see something different. Trent fanboys have used the OLine as an excuse ever since his benching. Which is invalid due to the fact that Fitz was able to avoid pressure and release the football. Hence the canned response on 100's of edwards vs fitz threads.

 

At no point did I root against Edwards (or do I see what context gave you that idea) I just got tired of watching Trent dump the ball of on 3rd and long to our the RB who would get smacked immediately. Do you now feel awesome??

 

 

I never got fanboys. I wanted Edwards to succeed as I wanted Bledsoe and Losman to succeed before them. I get your point about Fitz and I've also turned the page on Edwards because he doesn't seem to lack that moxie to make big plays. But honestly, I just want a QB to just win. It could be Ricard Simmons. I don't care at this point.

[Guest dog14787]

IMO, Jauron's biggest failure as a coach was his loyalty. By all accounts, Jauron is a very easy coach to work for. He should have hired an experienced OC (like Steve Maurucci (spelling) ) and not even touched the offense.

 

 

I'm more optimistic than you obviously but you're overstating the oline problems. I think Meredith is the RT of the future and has a ton of potential. Also, the Hang man was playing next to 2 rookies and takes a lot of heat because of it. I expect the oline to be vastly improved though we do have a huge question mark at LT.

 

 

 

I did a bet last year on here and the poster paid up when I was right. I love picking against "NFL experts," so $50 bet that the Bills win more than 4 games? 4 or less you win. 4 or more, I win. You in?

 

 

 

You're kinda of being lazy with this point. Cameron had a terrible record as a head coach in his only previous job at Indiana. Gailey has a winning NFL record as a head coach, went to the playoffs twice, and had a winning record as a college head coach. There is no comparison between the two.

 

 

You hit the nail on the head Biscuit, loyalty sunk the ship for DJ, or lack there of, ( as seen from a different view if your standing in Turk Shonerts shoes)

 

Normally the GM would have helped handle finding a replacement properly, something we didn't even have, except more as a figurehead in Russ Brandon.

 

 

Did I hear you mention not enough Gunslinger Biscuit,

 

NFL QB (TE) vs. fastest known Gunslinger in the world

[PDaDdy]

Stop overstating things. I'm ready to turn the page on Edwards but it's mainly because of the injuries. Checkdowns are an important of the game and are valuable. Edwards jsut doesn't have enough gunslinger in here.

 

But it's so funny how people just try and kill Edards. He was a 3rd round pick who was suppose to back up a 1st rounder. If Losman doesn't fail so miserably, Edwards probably would have started a few games and had Matt Schaub like trade value. At worst case, he could have been a really good backup QB like Frank Reich (who was a 3rd rounder as well). Edwards takes way too much heat.

 

Personally where a guy is drafted doesn't matter "too" much to me. The point is can he do the job or not. IMO Edwards can't. I guess your point perhaps is that he wasn't drafted to be the franchise but he was thrust into that roll because JP failed. Regardless of how he got there individually he has not been effective for any significant length of time.

 

Also IMO, Losman did not fail to the extent that people think. YES, he did fail before anyone tries to revive the even more tired Losman vs Edwards argument. LOL. I truly think Trent getting the start was more of a function of the new coach new QB phenomena we see. Edwards still has yet to top JP's individual numbers. Yes I know Cpt Checkdown excelled at completing passes behind the line of scrimmage and bolstering his completetion percentage but defenses packed it in on our offense once rubber arm proved he coudln't/wouldn't go deep and the running game suffered with Edwards at the helm. Edwards also didn't throw TDs that put points on the board.

[PDaDdy]

Now that one crosses the line into hyperbole, IMO, but I'll check.

 

And don't take this as me defending Edwards, please. He lost his job to Fitz on merit -- and considering that when RF was signed, most of us figured it was expressly because he WOULDN'T pose a threat to TE, that's not good.

 

I don't have that link open anymore. Tim (or Williamson) did say two 40+ throws for the year, correct? (Hmmm, that's setting the bar an inch above sea level for Brohm. Maybe you're right after all. Be right back.)

 

------------------------------------------------------

OK. This link might be password-protected; lemme know if it is: http://www.nflgsis.com/2009/Reg/16/54692/PlayStats.pdf

 

Brohm was 17-of-29 in that game. Interestingly, only four of those passes traveled over 10 yards past the line of scrimmage: 47-yd INT, 32 and 19-yd incompletions, and a 14-yd completion to Evans (who added 1 YAC). On the other hand, nine of his passes were targeted at or behind the LOS.

 

So, one game, one 40+ (to the wrong team) and a bunch of dumpoffs for Brohm. The contrast with TE might have been more apparent with Fitz. Still and all, I'm in the camp that's curious to see how Brohm does with a full training camp.

 

To be honest, Edwards too, in a different system. I'm not ready to absolve Jauron of responsibility for last season's cluster.....

 

 

I absolutely believe that we, as I have seen many teams in the league do, won't bring in a guy that can challenge their golden boy starter. In some cases perhaps this is a valid strategy if you know you have your guy and his numbers prove it. In our case Edwards proved nothing and could have easily been outplayed by several of the veteran QBs in the league. Jauron definitely had a big hand in how horrible and vanilla things were but Edwards made it even worse as we saw other barely mediocre QBs play with more moxy.

[Bufcomments]

Fitz didn't seem to have any issues getting the ball down the field, to the sidelines, and to targets other then the RB. Granted they were ugly, but he was able to throw the ball and avoid sacks. So we can blame the Oline to an extent but it still comes back to Edwards refusal or inability to do much of anything besides checkdown or get sacked.

T.O was better when Fitz got into the offense.

 

Yea his passes were not pretty but they got the job done. And that is all that matters.

I think that OBD likes Fitz more than they let on.