scorp15 Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I have noticed a sharp increase in the number of knee injuries on the Bills the past couple of years since Rusty Jones was sent packing during the Donahoe Era. We seldom had this type of injury when Rusty was here as he had stretching programs, nutrition etc which helped to prevent such injuries. Present Knee injuries include Kyle Williams, Demetrius Bell, Marcus Stroud , Jamon Meredith & Terrence McGee- IR Knee injuries are: Derek Fine, Kawika Mitchell, Marcus Buggs, Derek Schouman, Brad Butler & Lydell Sargent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Hansen Forever Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I have noticed a sharp increase in the number of knee injuries on the Bills the past couple of years since Rusty Jones was sent packing during the Donahoe Era. We seldom had this type of injury when Rusty was here as he had stretching programs, nutrition etc which helped to prevent such injuries. Present Knee injuries include Kyle Williams, Demetrius Bell, Marcus Stroud , Jamon Meredith & Terrence McGee- IR Knee injuries are: Derek Fine, Kawika Mitchell, Marcus Buggs, Derek Schouman, Brad Butler & Lydell Sargent I concur. Bring Rusty Back! He is as good as they get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Syracuse Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Ironically, that's when they installed that craptastic new field at RWS as well. I wonder if there's a correlation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC-Bills Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I have noticed a sharp increase in the number of knee injuries on the Bills the past couple of years since Rusty Jones was sent packing during the Donahoe Era. We seldom had this type of injury when Rusty was here as he had stretching programs, nutrition etc which helped to prevent such injuries. Present Knee injuries include Kyle Williams, Demetrius Bell, Marcus Stroud , Jamon Meredith & Terrence McGee- IR Knee injuries are: Derek Fine, Kawika Mitchell, Marcus Buggs, Derek Schouman, Brad Butler & Lydell Sargent How is Rusty supposed to prevent knee injuries that occur in a game?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hossage Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Field turf isnt any better than astroturf 1.0 or 2.0 or 2.0 with sand and rubber beads. It is too soft and flexey. The best surface is old school astroturf when slightly wet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubes Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 How is Rusty supposed to prevent knee injuries that occur in a game?!? He uses magic. Everyone knows that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrudginglyPessimistic Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 How is Rusty supposed to prevent knee injuries that occur in a game?!? The logic chain presented here evokes a reaction from of. "yeah there may be some connection between Jones departure and the Bills changing dieting, stretching and workout regimens, but a perceived increase in knee injuries falls way short of establishing a connection between Jones departure and an inordinate increase in knee injuries." Among the items where a statistical correlation might be found and needs to be presented for anyone to even take this conclusion seriously are: 1. Are the Bills actually suffering an inordinate number of knee injuries compared to the rest of the NFL. I also perceive an increase in the number of injuries and IR declarations since Rusty got canned, but in a game which the players are well paid in part due to a significant of injuries, I have not seen word 1 of info that would indicate that the Bills level of injuries are drastically higher consistently than the rest of the NFL. 2. Further, is any perceived or actual increase in injuries of the type (joint and connective injuries which may be associated with stretching or a lack thereof, traumatic injuries which come from increased contact, or perhaps lack of preparation that heavy contact may be coming which is associated to a lot of padless workouts etc. 3. What changes have actually happened in terms of diet, strectching, physical preparation, rehab, etc that correlates to some number. 4. What other major changes have happened (like someone saying above there has been a significant playing surface change) which might explain part of an injury increase (if one is actually happening). 5. Is there any organized or consistent blowback in terms of player comments that the Bills diet, prep, stretching, etc has changed since Rusty left that they theorize may be causing changes in injury rates, types, levels, etc. 6. Do you see a significant number of individual Bills using their substantial personal wealth to hire their own trainers, dieticians, or getting their own doctors second opinions now that Rusty has left? This whole thing is incredibly complicated, but there should be some concentrated significant signs of disenchantment with the Bills conditioning prep post Jones that even we outsiders can begin to see. There seems to me to be a fairly clear larger number of Bills going to the IR which has been reflected in statistical correlations such as the Bills ending up with record numbers of players on IR a couple of the last 10 seasons or since Rusty was summarily and stupidly (in most fan's views as what he was doing seemed to work) dismissed by Mularkey. However, there does not appear to be anywhere near even a statistical correlation between a consistent increased number of knee injuries and a correlation between an alleged change in Bills strength and conditioning regimen post Jones. Traumatic injuries like Pos breaking his arm twice or Kevin Everett needing life-saving spinal treatment intervention are true facts. However, the connection between this increased number of literal bad breaks and a Jones linked change in strength and conditioning simply has not even been remotely established or even hinted at by the statistical events. This is an issue worth exploring as there is a perceived change in outcomes and definite changes in input. The surmise offered in these posts is pretty unsubstantiated however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Strengthening the ligaments and muscles around the knee help to prevent injury. I think alot of the problems with knee injuries are more reflective of the increased bodyweights players are at in today's sports, and the sheer forces involved on the knee joint. Playing surfaces may be somewhat to blame- though I would fault the concrete-like playing surface of the old astroturf as opposed to today's. With that being said, when Rusty Jones was running the program for the Bills, injuries did seem less commonplace and we were among the top 3 teams in the league in terms of innovation and development of our players. The only difficult sell I could imagine is that Rusty is native to the Chicago area, and is now on the Bears staff. I would certainly like him back, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hossage Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 The bills have suffered more injuries than the rest of the NFL in recent years, but our undersized defense is on the field all day long, so who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Look at every other team - most are decimated by injuries too. The Dolphins, for one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrudginglyPessimistic Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 The bills have suffered more injuries than the rest of the NFL in recent years, but our undersized defense is on the field all day long, so who knows. This certainly seems to this outside observer that it may be true. However, I am simply well aware that I know far more about the details of whines and complaints from highly paid Bills than I do about other teams. Injuries to our boys also draw more attention and negative feelings than hearing the same thing about about opponents when I do happen to hear them. Is there any statistical evidence out there which highlights the Bills having more injuries than the norm or with even more detail links that increase to Rusty Jones leaving? Inquiring minds would love to see this or are we just gonna go with fact-free opinion here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Bills fan Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 While I certainly wouldn't mind getting Rusty Jones back... I thought we also had a lot of injuries during his last year or two. (I could be wrong.) Speaking of Rusty Jones... wasn't there a chain of "undercoating/rust proofing" companies around by that same name? Did he have anything to do with them, or was the name just a coincidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 The logic chain presented here evokes a reaction from of. "yeah there may be some connection between Jones departure and the Bills changing dieting, stretching and workout regimens, but a perceived increase in knee injuries falls way short of establishing a connection between Jones departure and an inordinate increase in knee injuries." Among the items where a statistical correlation might be found and needs to be presented for anyone to even take this conclusion seriously are: 1. Are the Bills actually suffering an inordinate number of knee injuries compared to the rest of the NFL. I also perceive an increase in the number of injuries and IR declarations since Rusty got canned, but in a game which the players are well paid in part due to a significant of injuries, I have not seen word 1 of info that would indicate that the Bills level of injuries are drastically higher consistently than the rest of the NFL. 2. Further, is any perceived or actual increase in injuries of the type (joint and connective injuries which may be associated with stretching or a lack thereof, traumatic injuries which come from increased contact, or perhaps lack of preparation that heavy contact may be coming which is associated to a lot of padless workouts etc. 3. What changes have actually happened in terms of diet, strectching, physical preparation, rehab, etc that correlates to some number. 4. What other major changes have happened (like someone saying above there has been a significant playing surface change) which might explain part of an injury increase (if one is actually happening). 5. Is there any organized or consistent blowback in terms of player comments that the Bills diet, prep, stretching, etc has changed since Rusty left that they theorize may be causing changes in injury rates, types, levels, etc. 6. Do you see a significant number of individual Bills using their substantial personal wealth to hire their own trainers, dieticians, or getting their own doctors second opinions now that Rusty has left? This whole thing is incredibly complicated, but there should be some concentrated significant signs of disenchantment with the Bills conditioning prep post Jones that even we outsiders can begin to see. There seems to me to be a fairly clear larger number of Bills going to the IR which has been reflected in statistical correlations such as the Bills ending up with record numbers of players on IR a couple of the last 10 seasons or since Rusty was summarily and stupidly (in most fan's views as what he was doing seemed to work) dismissed by Mularkey. However, there does not appear to be anywhere near even a statistical correlation between a consistent increased number of knee injuries and a correlation between an alleged change in Bills strength and conditioning regimen post Jones. Traumatic injuries like Pos breaking his arm twice or Kevin Everett needing life-saving spinal treatment intervention are true facts. However, the connection between this increased number of literal bad breaks and a Jones linked change in strength and conditioning simply has not even been remotely established or even hinted at by the statistical events. This is an issue worth exploring as there is a perceived change in outcomes and definite changes in input. The surmise offered in these posts is pretty unsubstantiated however. 1) We have been one of the two or three most injured teams in the league two out of the last three years. Yes, we are injured more than other teams. Deal with it. 2) There has never ever been the slightest hint of a smidgeon of proof that lack of contact in practice causes injuries. Not one bit. Deal with that too. There is no way to prove exactly what is the cause of a specific group of injuries to one football team. But when that team is consistently injured more than other teams, there is a reason, and knowing that is enough. Get a new strength and conditioning coach in here. 3) What changes have been made? Ask the strength and conditioning coach, not us fans. Better yet, don't bother. Just get somebody in here who knows what he's doing, preferably Rusty if he's available and willing. The questions you are asking are clearly not data that is available to fans. They are also beside the point. When you have a consistent record of problems occurring at a higher rate, stop trying to statistically prove something which can never be statistically proven and just go out and change things back to the way they were before the problems started. Even if the injury rate goes down, you have proved nothing. But who cares? The point isn't proving anything using the scientific method. The point is reducing injuries, no matter how quick and dirty the method of doing so. Get Rusty back in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 The bills have suffered more injuries than the rest of the NFL in recent years, but our undersized defense is on the field all day long, so who knows. But our injuries happen just as much to the well-rested offense as the exhausted defense. Look at the o-line, for Pete's sake. Just get Rusty back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrudginglyPessimistic Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 1) We have been one of the two or three most injured teams in the league two out of the last three years. Yes, we are injured more than other teams. Deal with it. 2) There has never ever been the slightest hint of a smidgeon of proof that lack of contact in practice causes injuries. Not one bit. Deal with that too. There is no way to prove exactly what is the cause of a specific group of injuries to one football team. But when that team is consistently injured more than other teams, there is a reason, and knowing that is enough. Get a new strength and conditioning coach in here. 3) What changes have been made? Ask the strength and conditioning coach, not us fans. Better yet, don't bother. Just get somebody in here who knows what he's doing, preferably Rusty if he's available and willing. The questions you are asking are clearly not data that is available to fans. They are also beside the point. When you have a consistent record of problems occurring at a higher rate, stop trying to statistically prove something which can never be statistically proven and just go out and change things back to the way they were before the problems started. Even if the injury rate goes down, you have proved nothing. But who cares? The point isn't proving anything using the scientific method. The point is reducing injuries, no matter how quick and dirty the method of doing so. Get Rusty back in here. I for one do not believe stats can PROVE anything. I think it was Mark Twain who said there are three kinds of untruths in this world: lies, damn lies and statistics. I think this is a pretty accurate representation of things. Most stats can be altered by the conditions within they are considered to support any preconceived case. This being said, while I do not think the stats prove anything beyond any doubt, they are a necessity to consider when trying to understand what context to consider them within. The stats are that the Bills ended up with about 17 players place on IR last year which I believe is pretty close to a record for us. Thus year just past the halfway point I think with Ellison we are now up to about 12. There would have seemed to have been an inordinate # of these at LB (Mitchell, Buggs, Ellison), add to that Pos going down with his fracture a bunch of games, and also a number of knee problems. This sounds like it MAY be a big issue to me. In order to DEAL with it I am just trying to get a real sense of the problem and how it compares to other times and also pre-Rusty firing. I would prefer to DEAL with it rationally (which TSW has been a great resource over the years for getting this type of info from other psychotic Bills fans) rather than simply whine and get my panties all up in a wad over fact-free opinions (which TSW and WGR tend to have a lot of as well. Are their any statistical INDICATIONS (since the mere stats do not prove anything IMHO) that it is true that we are suffering an inordinate # of injuries the last years as you state or is this unsubstantiated blather which we might agree with but simply because we are fans and there is no supporting evidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max997 Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I have noticed a sharp increase in the number of knee injuries on the Bills the past couple of years since Rusty Jones was sent packing during the Donahoe Era. We seldom had this type of injury when Rusty was here as he had stretching programs, nutrition etc which helped to prevent such injuries. Present Knee injuries include Kyle Williams, Demetrius Bell, Marcus Stroud , Jamon Meredith & Terrence McGee- IR Knee injuries are: Derek Fine, Kawika Mitchell, Marcus Buggs, Derek Schouman, Brad Butler & Lydell Sargent gee this hasnt been talked about a million times already maybe if the team actually practiced like they were going to play tackle football during training camp and the season they wouldnt end up getting hurt when the hitting started Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrudginglyPessimistic Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 gee this hasnt been talked about a million times already maybe if the team actually practiced like they were going to play tackle football during training camp and the season they wouldnt end up getting hurt when the hitting started But... but... but... It was stated earlier in this thread that: 2) There has never ever been the slightest hint of a smidgeon of proof that lack of contact in practice causes injuries. Not one bit. Deal with that too. There is no way to prove exactly what is the cause of a specific group of injuries to one football team. But when that team is consistently injured more than other teams, there is a reason, and knowing that is enough. Get a new strength and conditioning coach in here. Someone said it so it must be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 It's tough to get the players to come to off-season strength and conditioning programs. The strength and conditioning coach is, I'd argue, one of the most important coaching positions on an NFL team. Right up there with the coordinators and special teams coach. Getting rid of Rusty Jones was about as brilliant as telling Pat Williams to take a hike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 The Bills have had 2 bad injury years under Jauron, 2 out of 4. 2 of those years NE has had more injuries than Buffalo. 2 of those years Chicago has had more injuries then Buffalo. Point being? Stop with the theories because they mean absolutely nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsfaninFl Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 The logic chain presented here evokes a reaction from of. "yeah there may be some connection between Jones departure and the Bills changing dieting, stretching and workout regimens, but a perceived increase in knee injuries falls way short of establishing a connection between Jones departure and an inordinate increase in knee injuries." Among the items where a statistical correlation might be found and needs to be presented for anyone to even take this conclusion seriously are: 1. Are the Bills actually suffering an inordinate number of knee injuries compared to the rest of the NFL. I also perceive an increase in the number of injuries and IR declarations since Rusty got canned, but in a game which the players are well paid in part due to a significant of injuries, I have not seen word 1 of info that would indicate that the Bills level of injuries are drastically higher consistently than the rest of the NFL. 5. Is there any organized or consistent blowback in terms of player comments that the Bills diet, prep, stretching, etc has changed since Rusty left that they theorize may be causing changes in injury rates, types, levels, etc. 6. Do you see a significant number of individual Bills using their substantial personal wealth to hire their own trainers, dieticians, or getting their own doctors second opinions now that Rusty has left? . . . Well if you haven't heard it, you must be missing a lot of stats and articles. Two years ago, the Bills led the league in players placed on injured reserve (with17). They were among the top teams again last year and this year is another banner year for maladies, especially knee and ankle injuries. I'm no physician, but that looks like a factual trend to me. You ask a lot of questions while pontificating, but who among us do you expect to give you details of the differences in training and practice procedures between the Rusty Jones era and today? Just because we can't give you those details, doesn't mean we can't point out our observations and league records. Regarding 5. Not many players were here back then. 6. They stopped sharing that info with me after they found out I hid Thurman's helmet. Comeon, you're embarrassing yourself. Now if you have a point to make, and it has merit, you make it and provide evidence for it. But don't shoot arrows at the poster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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