BillsVet

Let's not conflate the argument. The team has won no less than 4 games and no more than 7 since 2006. Both times the team showed any level of success in the past 8 seasons it quickly petered out after week 8. It's skepticism at this point to express some concern about this franchise given the track record, not the widely used negativity explanation. Is it negativity to think the team will struggle with: a rookie HC, a rookie OC, a likely rookie QB, 1-2 rookie WR's, the loss of their best OLineman, a new defense being implemented, a rookie ILB, and at least one new starter in the secondary? Does that lend itself to success? And is it reasonable to predict they're will be growing pains given these facts? And you forgot to walk back your unsubstantiated allegations about my presence on this board.

The old "throw it against the wall and see if it sticks" method. Why don't you try proving that I wasn't around early in the 2011 season before alleging it? Then again, this isn't the first time you've conducted yourself this way. I recall you saying I said the Bills 2010 UFA signings were bad, which I hadn't. I then asked you for evidence and you couldn't/didn't respond. It's the skeptical people who've been justified more often than not on this board. Of course, that skepticism angle is magically changed by some here to seem as though we take pleasure in saying that. I've been here for going on 7 years, but I'll be sure to bow to your omniscience and unsubstantiated allegations.

What does the decision to fire Cameron have to do with hiring a young inexperienced OC? Cameron was bad and experienced. Hackett is an unknown entity at the NFL level and has no experience coaching positions. Terrell Suggs was a former DPOY winner who suffered a serious injury, returned, and was only partially effective. Byrd is healthy, not quite a DPOY winner, and is not at camp due to a contract issue. The Ravens invested resources into their OL as someone else has pointed out in another thread. Glenn has 1 season and is still very much a work in progress. Wood an above average center, and Urbik is a RG that can win in a phone booth but offers little mobility, hence his playing RG not LG. What is the correlation? Anquan Boldin and Torrey Smith are proven NFL receivers. T.J. Graham is not, nor is rookie Marquise Goodwin, although they may be with game experience. Johnson remains the only proven NFL receiver on the roster. Spiller and Ray Rice are different types of backs. The former is a more outside the tackle runner, the latter being a more all-around talent. JaMarcus Russell had a big arm as well, and arm strength is often overrated. It's not a comparison of Russell to EJ either. Chandler is a short to medium range type. Smith is strictly a blocker, with Caussin, Gragg, and Provo complete unknowns who've taken few to zero NFL snaps. I'm speechless on this one. One is a future HOF'er with multiple All-Pro appearances and the other hasn't taken an NFL snap yet. Perhaps.

One of the hallmarks of our 21st century society, as demonstrated on this message board (and specifically in this thread), remains a complete intolerance of contrarian opinion. Those fans who aren't excited about the "new" Bills are deemed negative, told to get another team, and roundly criticized for questioning the happy training camp talk we typically see this time of year. We're left with ad hominem attacks precipitated by those who won't deign to understand why people don't think like them. Brandon can say what he wants, but talk is cheap. Didn't someone once say to show us the baby first?

Brandon, at the very least, had a huge hand in picking Marrone. And so, the new team president needs the new HC to win or it reflects poorly on him.

Here is the latest and greatest straw man argument whenever the topic of re-signing players comes up. Well, has anyone ever attempted to answer why players don't want to play in Buffalo? Is it because they're not offered market value for their services? Is it because they feel there isn't a good enough chance to win? What is it? Basically, anytime someone doesn't re-sign with the Bills we can use the "he didn't want to be here argument" as a means of covering for the franchise. Awfully convenient for those who can't bring themselves to blame the team. And anyway, I don't recall the team making an offer to Levitre, or what the offer to Byrd was, or whether they've engaged Wood in negotiations yet.

The debate about whether or not to retain Levitre boils down to having a suitable replacement on the roster when the player is about to leave. The Bills didn't and now they're signing lower tier UFA's (Caldwell and Legursky) with types like Colin Brown (who's started 2 NFL games). But this is a common denominator of Bills team-building from 2001 to the present. Quite often a player is let go and no one's been groomed to take their spot, unless you count the unproven options the team drafts that year or a player with limited playing experience.

Across multiple GM's, the Bills haven't and aren't investing in their OL. When they do it's out of sheer desperation and not proactively. Instead, a player leaves or is let go and they are in a panic to replace that person. Case in point was the 2009 draft. People here told us they were willing to invest given the drafting of Wood and Levitre, but that's not accurate. In fact, Dockery had been cut, meaning they needed a LG and the move of Walker to LT meant Brad Butler went from RG to RT. So they almost HAD to take interior OL high. Fast forward to the 2012 draft. Bell was gone and the team needed a LT, so they drafted Glenn and plugged him in. Glenn was the first OT the team had selected in the first 3 rounds since Fat Mike in 2002. 10 years without drafting an OT is absurd. At least at the OL position, the Bills are consistently a step behind in stocking their talent. It makes for a more difficult transition and means QB's are running for their lives and/or having to get rid of the ball faster.

Dareus has put on a decent amount of weight since leaving Alabama. I figured he's shed some going into camp this year, but he doesn't look any smaller. Oddly enough, he seemed more effective against the pass last year versus the run.

What was Dallas doing cutting him after 1 season and why did the Bills start him 4 times in 2 seasons?

You tend to lose credibility when you don't win. And Jairus Byrd helps the Bills win on the field and off. Case in point: Take Jairus Byrd away from the Arizona game last year and tell me if the Bills win that one. But the team chose to only tender the player and couldn't come to terms. If you view the Byrd negotiations in a vacuum, well, yeah the team proved their point. But you can be sure fellow agents of potential UFA's and players developed by the Bills will remember this situation if their player gets good like Byrd did. Why do fans worry so much what players are being paid and less about overall roster talent? And what's laughable is the common tactic on TBD that when a unit is horrible (2010-12 defense or 2007-08 offense) and one player wants to get paid we marginalize the player by citing collective failure of that side of the ball.

Parker is most likely prepared to lose the battle this time with Byrd getting tagged. What he won't lose is the war. After 2007, when Peters was a 2nd team All-Pro OT, the Bills refused to re-negotiate. Eventually, the player showed just before the season and played in 2008. The team and player couldn't agree to a deal in the '09 off-season, and the Bills traded him for a first round pick and change. The people who will lose is the front office in terms of credibility by not retaining one of their best players, the coaches, who'll be playing guys less experienced, and the fans, who will see an inferior product. Parker and Byrd will get paid eventually.

Parker was Cornelius Bennett's agent in 1992 when the player signed an extension just before the regular season. Of course, Bill Polian was the GM back then. http://www.buffalonews.com/20130602/high_stakes_hardball.html

Why not say 10M per year? You can't prove me right or wrong. After all, Parker is a greedy player agent who won't work with the team.

What makes me think they don't have a plan? Oh, about the last 8 seasons of winning between 4 and 7 games per season. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's been pointed out many times on this board that the roster hasn't truly been rebuilt, only a piece added when another is deleted. A prime example is the ILB/MLB position. Let Fletcher go, draft Posluszny. Let Posluszny go, draft Sheppard. Trade Sheppard, draft a guy like Alonso. Sure, it costs money to re-sign your own free agents but you then use the draft to fill needs. Not that they've been stellar on draft day either. And here we are years later with another young unproven guy we hope can play. Cost savings? Sure. But no building going on and 4-7 wins later another non-playoff season. Welcome to Buffalo Bills football 2001-2013.

Who's responsible for initiating contract talks? Is it the team or agent? I would expect the team to do this, not the agent. And if there's one thing I know, information leaks whenever a team engages in contract negotiations. That didn't happen in neither Levitre's nor Byrd's case. Another concept lost among many here is you don't begin negotiating when against a wall. Does it make sense to begin negotiations a month before the player hits UFA or more than a year before when they don't have the security of a long term contract? Put yourself in a player's shoes for a moment. I don't see a player like Levitre getting the deal he got in March if Buffalo had begun negotiations early in the 2012 off-season. Finally, among home-grown players who are proven, who has Buffalo signed before the player reached their walk-year? The decision on Levitre or Byrd should have been made before the 2011 season concluded. And if, at that point they decided against retaining the player, they should have have a player in mind to step in or how to address the position in UFA or the draft. Instead, we typically get an unproven young player This seems harsh to some surface level fans, but we're talking the NFL here. It's not building a fantasy football team with keepers.

Bill Polian made up for the poor organizational philosophy with outstanding drafts and personnel decisisons. He was so much better than everyone that people didn't notice the how dysfunctional the Bills were managed by the owner and his top people. In the span of 4 years (85-88) he drafted multiple HOF'ers (B.Smith, Thurman and soon to be Reed), signed another (Kelly) and continued to find players in later rounds that added key depth. But you know this already, correct? The BIlls haven't had a GM who could make up for their poor organizational philosophy with outstanding drafts and other personnel transactions since Polian. Even Butler couldn't keep the pace and the Bills glory years ended. But again, you already knew that. Not to mention you're comparing two entirely different eras. No free agency, as someone already mentioned. And, teams weren't as equal in terms of scouting. The Bills were finding players from all over the country, in later rounds, and signing guys who could play. Now, there are no secrets on drafts day. The Bills succeeded from '88 to '99 because the front office could make up with talent acquisiton for senior management interventions in personnel. But you already knew that.

You're addressing symptoms of OBD's dysfunction, not the root cause. The organizational philosophy is what stands in the way of success, in that non-football people are making decisions which impact the football side of the house. Just because Russ is a different person than RW doesn't mean they don't share the same philosophy. After all, subordinates tend to follow the example of their supervisor. Nowhere did I say anything about a lack of money being paid out. And let's be honest, this discussion is so nuanced that saying "RW is cheap" or "RW isn't cheap" doesn't even begin to address the root cause of why this team can't get out of their own way. The main question remains why the team, across multiple GM's, HC's, QB's, coordinators, draft picks, etc. can't win enough to make the post-season? Why do they waste resources on players like Mark Anderson which preclude them from signing more valuable players?

Ironically, that decision was made during Russ Brandon's tenure as GM. Nothing like having someone without personnel experience making decisions on players. Because I highly doubt DJ and Sean Kugler would switch Langston Walker to play a position he wasn't physically suitable nor acquired to play. But I suppose if people are looking for overwhelming objective evidence that the team is managed by financially driven people at the expense of the roster well, you can go on believing what you want. The results across multiple "regimes" indicate their organizational priorities are way out of line.

It's amazing that Brandon and Overdorf get the benefit of the doubt so easily. They are in a select group who have been on the payroll during this era of losing, specifically since 2006 when Brandon moved into a more executive role. No matter how poorly they do as a team, both the president and chief contract negotiator will never be let go. If winning were the priority here that it is in other franchises, change would not be reserved to only the HC, GM, and a couple front office types.

We can debate all day how successful the team is in signing good players versus others clubs. It's a weak attempt at conflating the argument by those who would rather not criticize a "new" regime. But the record is what it is, and winning one third of your games means your personnel decisions were bad. All the while, there are common themes developing between the new and previous "regimes." Cutting players before camp, not being able to sign All-Pro caliber talent. New coaches, GM's, etc. It's all symbolic until they begin proving they are willing to do what it takes to win.

Yes, I neglected to include Pears and Chandler. I will update.

During the Nix "Regime" 2010-2012 UFA / Re-signed players not with team Dwan Edwards: Signed as an UFA to a 4 year 18M contract March 2010 (cut September 2012) Cornell Green: Signed as an UFA to a 3 year 9M contract March 2010 (cut November 2010) Chris Kelsay: Re-signed to a 5 year 28.2M contract extension September 2010 (retired February 2013) George Wilson: Re-signed to a 3 year 7M contract March 2011 (cut February 2013) Drayton Florence: Re-signed to a 3 year 15M contract July 2011 (cut May 2012) Tyler Thigpen: Signed as an UFA to a 3 year 11M contract July 2011 (cut March 2013) Nick Barnett: Signed as an UFA to a 3 year 12M contract July 2011 (cut February 2013) Ryan Fitzpatrick: Re-signed to a 6 year 59M contract October 2011 (cut March 2013) Vince Young: Signed as an UFA to a 1 year 2M contract May 2012 (cut August 2012) Mark Anderson: Signed as an UFA to a 4 year 20M contract March 2012 (cut January 2013) UFA / Re-signings Kyle Williams: Re-signed to a 6 year 33.6M contract extension July 2011 (2013 starter) Brad Smith: Signed as an UFA to a 4 year 15M contract July 2011 (potential cut 2013) Erik Pears: Re-signed to a 4 year 9.8M contract December 2011 (likely 2013 starter) Rian Lindell: Re-signed to a 4 year 10M contract extension February 2012 (potential cut 2013) Steve Johnson: Re-signed to a 5 year 36.25M contract extension March 2012 (2013 starter) Mario Williams: Signed as an UFA to a 6 year 96M contract March 2012 (potential re-structuring 2014) Scott Chandler, Re-signed to a 2 year 5.5M contract March 2012 (2013 starter) Fred Jackson: Re-signed to a 3 year 10.8M contract extension May 2012 (2013 primary backup) Kraig Urbik: Re-signed to a 4 year 13.3M contract extension December 2012 (2013 starter) Nix decided to sign 19 players during his tenure. 10 are no longer on the roster and departed before their contract was up, meaning his hit rate was about 50%. That's a far cry from the batting 1.000 you mentioned, but still well above the .333 winning percentage his teams recorded. If Brad Smith and Lindell are cut, well, then Nix has so far hit on about 40% of his signings.

Value pickups are nice, but they aren't winning games. If you want to fill your roster with Kraig Urbik's and Scott Chandlers, well fine. But until this team can prove they can keep their elite talent, it's all symbolism over substance. Elite talent wins games and it costs money. Apparently that price to retain your own talent is too high for the Bills. Rarely in the post-Donahoe era has this team had an All-Pro caliber player they developed come up for a contract extension. Yet, in the two instances it occurred, there was significant acrimony between the team and player. Some will say it's Eugene Parker, whatever. I still see a franchise where non-football people still have more input on personnel moves than they should. Regardless of who the GM is, this style of leadership continues to hang over the franchise like a cloud. After all, Brandon learned at the foot of RW.

So who is the next Chris Kelsay they can re-sign in order to meet the CBA requirements? IMO, the Bills are adept at signing people who don't pose as much threat during negotiations. Simply look at the players they've re-signed going back to 2010: the aforementioned Kelsay, Kyle Williams, Kraig Urbik, Rian Lindell, Drayton Florence, George Wilson, Fred Jackson, Fitzpatrick, and Stevie. None would be considered elite talent, but certainly filled roles or are decent players. It also says a lot that the team has, in the past 6 years, signed big UFA contracts (Dockery in '07, Mario '12) and allows their own developed top talent out the door. From a planning perspective, it's not a good message to send guys you draft who develop.